Author Topic: hope and change  (Read 8828 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2010, 09:28:37 PM »
he would be unable to distinguish the pharmacology of the drug from the moral implications of the drug.  He would refuse to dispense a drug that would be dangerous for the patient's body or the patient's soul.



i'm on the fence about that being either good or bad   have moral convictions gone the way of black and white tv ? to be replaced with convienience
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MechAg94

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2010, 09:51:31 PM »
Exactly.  That's why if you're a pharmacist, you dispense what the doctor writes, unless you have information (drug interactions, allergies, etc) that would make that dangerous for the patient.  Then you call the doctor and get something else.

I work in managed hosting.  One of my customers is a spammer.
I'm more than happy to take their money, and when they complain that an anti-spam RBL is blocking them, I laugh.  I'll talk to the anti spam people, and pass it on to the customer.  They'll stop spamming for a bit, then start up again, and get blocked almost instantaneously.

Now, I won't help them hide who they are (they wanted a set of netblocks in someone elses name, which I wouldn't give them) or help them evade the anti spammers, but I have no problem taking their money for something i'm morally opposed to.  I'll make sure their network is running properly, and that the servers they pay for are running properly, and that's it.

You sometimes have to deal with rotten people to make a living.  I'll treat these guys fairly, but not give them anything above and beyond like I would my other customers.

So, you are doing exactly what the pharmacist did?  Refusing to do certain services you don't want to do.  
Do you go down to the kosher meat market to buy pork?
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BridgeRunner

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2010, 10:07:45 PM »
So, you are doing exactly what the pharmacist did?  Refusing to do certain services you don't want to do.  
Do you go down to the kosher meat market to buy pork?

Are there pharmacies marketed toward religious communities who oppose the use of the drugs at issue?

I know there are doctors like that, but never heard of a religious pharmacy.

Tallpine

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2010, 10:38:37 PM »
Quote
You sometimes have to deal with rotten people to make a living.

Well, maybe you do ...
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2010, 10:54:42 PM »
I have no problem taking their money for something i'm morally opposed to.


answers this


have moral convictions gone the way of black and white tv ? to be replaced with convienience
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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taurusowner

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2010, 11:21:47 PM »
Quote
have moral convictions gone the way of black and white tv ? to be replaced with convienience

Yes.  And anyone who tries to apply moral convictions to anything outside their imagination should (according to some, and on this board no less) be prosecuted legally.

Essentially people like Nitrogen do not want anyone to be able to hold a job in the real world if they also want to hold onto moral convictions.

Perd Hapley

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2010, 01:05:03 AM »
Exactly.  That's why if you're a pharmacist, you dispense what the doctor writes, unless you have information (drug interactions, allergies, etc) that would make that dangerous for the patient.

You're right.  We should all simply do our jobs in a perfectly thoughtless manner.  


I think it's just as silly to go into a business where you might have to do things you're morally against, as it is to get a job doing so.

You can't just walk up and buy a Walgreens pharmacy, the training alone to be a pharmacist is pretty intensive.

Why bother if you don't want to dispense certain pills?  It's a waste of your own money (and our money, since many people get govt grants to do it)

Any pharmacy owner who does this deserves to go out of business in my opinion.


Speaking of things that are silly and wasteful, the above rambling is both.  How moronic, to suppose that a pharmacist cannot make a living without selling one or two particular medications.  Is it not patently obvious that for every order for an abortifacient, there will be twelve for cold medicine? 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 01:08:32 AM by Fistful »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2010, 02:53:33 AM »
Essentially people like Nitrogen do not want anyone to be able to hold a job in the real world if they also want to hold onto moral convictionsother than his.
ftfy
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2010, 01:54:56 PM »
Essentially people like Nitrogen do not want anyone to be able to hold a job in the real world if they also want to hold onto moral convictionsother than his.
ftfy

Why would I want to employ people whose moral convictions contradict them doing the job? I've not yet had an answer to that.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2010, 02:20:59 PM »
Why would I want to employ people whose moral convictions contradict them doing the job? I've not yet had an answer to that.

Perhaps I've lost track, but is anyone arguing that you would? 
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taurusowner

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2010, 06:21:11 PM »
Why would I want to employ people whose moral convictions contradict them doing the job? I've not yet had an answer to that.

Ok.  Turn it around.  What if I only want to employ people who do have moral convictions?  You, and others like Nitrogen are arguing that a business owner should be free to hire employees who are the best fit for you and your company.  Well others want to do the same thing.  It's just that the "best fit" for Nitrogen would be someone without moral convictions, and the "best fit" for someone else might be someone with moral convictions.  Why should your or Nitrogen be free to run your business how you want, but insist on keeping other business owners from doing what they want?

Perd Hapley

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2010, 06:30:46 PM »
I guess I should read threads more carefully before replying.  I completely missed the fact that a certain member feels that pharmacists should be forced to cooperate with murder schemes, yet he personally refused to cooperate with a scheme to commit spam. 

So, yeah, we're talking to someone who feels spam is worse than murder.   ???
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taurusowner

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2010, 06:35:51 PM »
I guess I should read threads more carefully before replying.  I completely missed the fact that a certain member feels that pharmacists should be forced to cooperate with murder schemes, yet he personally refused to cooperate with a scheme to commit spam. 

So, yeah, we're talking to someone who feels spam is worse than murder.   ???

More to the point, we're dealing with someone who feels that his ideals and values (or lack thereof) should be applied, through law and prosecution if necessary, to everyone without question.

BrokenPaw

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2010, 11:32:56 AM »
I guess I should read threads more carefully before replying.  I completely missed the fact that a certain member feels that pharmacists should be forced to cooperate with murder schemes, yet he personally refused to cooperate with a scheme to commit spam. 

The way I read what he wrote, he provides to them the services that they pay for, but does not provide fraudulent services (that are outside of his duties) that would help them in an enterprise he does not approve of (to wit: obtaining blocks of network addresses under someone else's name - that'd be fraudulent).

So the pharmacy-argument equivalent would be a pharmacist refusing (on moral grounds) to sell an abortifacient to someone who walks in with a scrip for morning-sickness anti-nausea meds.  That would be very right and proper, regardless of the pharmacist's moral views, because he would be refusing to provide services that were outside of his legitimate purview.

I see this issue as one of timing:  If someone was a pharmacist already, and a drug came on the market that he found morally repugnant, then he should be within his rights to refuse to sell it under the "this is not what I signed up for" premise.  Just as, for instance, a cop who had been on the force for years, when new department policy comes down that people of a particular type should be harassed for whatever reason, should refuse that duty; it was not a part of the deal when he signed up, and it's morally repugnant to him.

But if the pharmacist came into the job knowing that dispensing drugs of this type (and if the cop signed onto the force knowing that harassing "those people") was part of the job, then he signed up for it, and should STFU and do his job.  Or quit.  But not cherry-pick which of the duties he agreed to perform as a condition of employment he will actually perform.

To try to change the deal after the fact, from either direction, is not acceptable.  For an employer to alter the moral framework of a job after someone is employed is reprehensible.  But for an employee to take money for a job that they knew they would be unable (or unwilling) to perform is likewise reprehensible.

As for government involvement in all of this:  It's not the government's job to tell any business owner what they must sell, who they must hire, or what services they must offer.  If there are two pharms in town, and one of them chooses not to dispense some drugs on moral grounds, then the other one will get that business, and the people of the community will decide if they care enough about the issue to support one pharm over the other.  If they overwhelmingly support the one that claimed a moral high ground, then likely that one will succeed and the other might fail.  If they don't care, then if the morally-repugnant business is a significant revenue stream, then the one who took a moral stand might fail.  Legitimate market forces, operating in legitimate ways.

Medicare's a different animal, because the government simply cannot allow the free market to operate in this arena, or the wheels will fall off the ObamaCare cart; for economic reasons, more and more docs would refuse to take medicare patients, until the remaining ones are swamped with economically-untenable clients, at which point they'll either go under or they'll start refusing to take them as well, and the problem will snowball. 

Of course, the wheels are going to come off the cart no matter what; when being a doc is no longer an economically-sound profession, people will stop becoming docs.   The only solution then will be one of two things:  soviet-era-style totalitarian control of what profession each person goes into, forcing some people to be docs (with results comparable to soviet-era medicine); or a return to market-based medical care.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2010, 12:16:10 PM »
Ok, wait.

The anti-abortionists are arguing that it's wrong to force one's own moral code on other people?

Wtf?

makattak

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2010, 12:22:23 PM »
Ok, wait.

The anti-abortionists are arguing that it's wrong to force one's own moral code on other people?

Wtf?

No one believes it is wrong to force one's moral code on other people.
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taurusowner

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2010, 12:25:27 PM »
The cop example doesn't really work as police are members of a team and employed by the government to serve the people.  A pharmacist is a private citizen who may be operating a business on his own or with employees of his choosing. As such, the pharmacist should have the right to run his business and select his employees on whatever basis he chooses, even a moral or religious basis.  To continue the disparity, a resident of a city cannot choose to not associate with that city's police department. He is under their jurisdiction and must associate with them while in his town. But any citizen may choose any pharmacy he wants anywhere. If you go to one that doesn't sell birth control, just find another.

BridgeRunner

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2010, 12:53:42 PM »
No one believes it is wrong to force one's moral code on other people.

Agreed.  I wish we would all acknowledge that the issues of when and how it is just to do so are a matter of considerable complexity. 

Perd Hapley

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2010, 05:18:13 PM »
The anti-abortionists are arguing that it's wrong to force one's own moral code on other people?

Maybe Ragnar is. 




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Tallpine

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2010, 05:49:39 PM »
No one believes it is wrong to force one's moral code on other people.

Well, actually ... part of my personal moral code is that it is wrong to force one's moral code on other people.

The problem arises when others try to force their moral code on me, and so therefore I am trying to enforce my moral code on them when I say they shouldn't force their moral code on me  ;/


BTW, not forcing my moral code on somebody does not preclude me from thinking somebody is wrong.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Perd Hapley

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2010, 05:53:27 PM »
Mo-o-o-o-o-om!  Tallpine got some of his moral code on me!
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sanglant

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2010, 12:43:27 AM »
ummm, that's not moral code. [barf]












 [popcorn]

MechAg94

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2010, 09:18:16 AM »
Anyone got the key to that moral code?  I can't read it. 

IMO, tell the pharmacy to put a sign up saying they don't sell morning after pills.  The person can go to another pharmacy.  Down here, you can't go to a Walgreens without tripping over a CVS. 
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Tallpine

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Re: hope and change
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2010, 02:04:59 PM »
Mo-o-o-o-o-om!  Tallpine got some of his moral code on me!

But it was your fault  :P
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin