Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws

[kgbsquirrel]

..so, in other words, you have no constructive, helpful suggestions. Noted.

was that too subtle?  or is it you just didn't like the reality? the community was not unaware of christ  but it was cool.  till now it jeopardizes the progress made and then its "its not fair!"  hence the adolescent stoners characterization.   want to be taken seriously? act seriously.  phone diagnosis?  all the other nonsense ?  typical in adolescents  push the limits till you get smacked.  mom and dad will never catch on

No C&SD. That comment is written exactly as it is intended; a succinct acknowledgment that your comments are not meant to be in any way supportive to a functional solution that does not deprive the citizen of liberty nor burden the infirm with an unnecessary cruelty. To prove that your comments are no more than asinine aggravations veiled as pointless excursus I need look no further than your most recent assertion that an entire class of people, personally represented by a few here, were blithely ignoring a serious impediment to their issue when it has already been repeatedly affirmed to be the contrary. So with the primary points of the main conversation dismissed from issue let me ask you my own curt question: Do your responses pose any purpose other than to agitate and gall?

[MicroBalrog]

As a matter of fact I have spent two weeks in a European country where marijuana was sold legally, over the counter.

I will post about my experiences here if anybody is interested.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

supportive to a functional solution

short answer  want to be treated like grown ups?  act like grownups?  fail to do so see what is happening in montana and elsewhere to see what to expect

[Tallpine]

So by that reasoning is it MY responsibility as a gun owner/user to go hunt down anyone who misuses a firearm 

So the stoners should go vigilante on other stoners...? 

[erictank]

PTK,

I don't have an issue with medical MJ as long as it is treated, controlled and prescribed just like oxycontin, morphine, etc.  I do have plenty of issues with the medical MJ program here in California.  215 cards have become a joke.  That guy in Montana was making the whole process a joke.  Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't he the dude with the medical MJ caravan where some of the patients only spent 6 or 7 minutes with a doctor?  That sort of abuse of a prescription drug is my only beef with medical MJ.

For the rest of the people who want to call me or others like me a statist, anti freedom, etc. the invitation to come out for a tour of Mendocino County or Fort Bragg in particular is still open.  During the last thread about medical MJ I threw that invitation out.  The offer is still good.  Then we can see and talk about pervasive crime, abuse and neglect that is being caused by the MJ culture here.  That special on CNBC, Marijuana Nation or whatever it was called, struck me as pro pot propoganda.  They should have let me loose with a camera for a couple of hours here or in Garberville to show some of the downsides to pot use.

Missed the part where I talked about my family vacation and our walk down the Venice Beach boardwalk, and its collection of "medical marijuana facilities"?

DESPITE those individuals and businesses which any rational person will clearly agree were taking advantage of CA laws regarding medical MJ in order to indulge stoners with no actual medical conditions, I still maintain that maintaining and expanding legal acceptance of medical marijuana for those who need it is the *BARE MINIMUM* we ought to be doing - and as a matter of principle, I personally believe that you have the moral right, and SHOULD have the legal right, to inhale/inject/injest whatever you so desire (and be held responsible for any actions abusive of others' rights while under the influence, or which were undertaken to GET under the influence).  DESPITE those seeking to abuse current MM laws in places like MT and CA.

Note that medicines such as oxycontin, morphine, etc., despite their legal status, are currently abused by some.

So by that reasoning is it MY responsibility as a gun owner/user to go hunt down anyone who misuses a firearm 

So the stoners should go vigilante on other stoners...? 

That's what I'm getting from C&SD, as well, and Tuco to some extent.  I really and truly don't get how they miss the parallel to our position as firearms owners and the victim-disarmament types' efforts to tar US with the acts of those criminals who are not in fact a part of the group "firearms owners".

[roo_ster]

The adolescent stoner is the complete moral superior of the man who persecutes him.

grandiose categorical statements are common in adolescents   often they use words like clearly  or definitively to "prove" their point

Well, in this case MB's statement has the advantage of being true, despite your aversion to particular vocabulary.

To spell it out, the adolescent stoner harms no one else whilst using MJ.  The LEO who arrests him for using MJ is using violence against someone who has harmed no other.  The moral calculus is pretty simple.

So by that reasoning is it MY responsibility as a gun owner/user to go hunt down anyone who misuses a firearm  

So the stoners should go vigilante on other stoners...?  

Don't you get it?

If MMJ users were to do something like that, it would then be evidence they have unstable personalities and are a lawless bunch unwilling to work within the system.  Re-criminalize & toss 'em in jail!

You're not expected to have any possible means to achieve your goal.  It is Catch 22 for the MMJ crowd.

Note that medicines such as oxycontin, morphine, etc., despite their legal status, are currently abused by some.

As is alcohol.  Maybe we ought to prohibit that, too?  What could possibly go wrong?

[PTK]

It seems that common sense and logic have once again entered this thread. :)

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

So by that reasoning is it MY responsibility as a gun owner/user to go hunt down anyone who misuses a firearm 

So the stoners should go vigilante on other stoners...? 

no  but if you and the other gun owners allow one of the boys to run amok and grin amongst yourselves and tacitly approve and cooperate you can't whine when as a result some new onerous laws gets passed to regulate the behavior you enabled.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

To spell it out, the adolescent stoner harms no one else whilst using MJ.

in order for one to truly believe that it require you to distance yourself from the reality
i think there are a few parents out there who would disagree
http://www.allbusiness.com/crime-law-enforcement-corrections/criminal-offenses-fraud/13350548-1.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081014111156.htm

[roo_ster]

To spell it out, the adolescent stoner harms no one else whilst using MJ.

in order for one to truly believe that it require you to distance yourself from the reality
i think there are a few parents out there who would disagree
http://www.allbusiness.com/crime-law-enforcement-corrections/criminal-offenses-fraud/13350548-1.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081014111156.htm

CSD:

You aren't going to win your argument that way, meaning going beyond the immediate bounds of the actions in question(1).  For every link you have of some stoner acting poorly, I can match it with some LEO acting poorly under color of authority.

In this case, your response is pathetically weak, as your second link only demonstrates harm for the MJ user.  I could link to other substances, that abused, also harm the user.  Food, for one, causes much, much more damage to abusers than MJ does, what with cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and other obesity-related ailments.  Ought we commission some LEOs for the Fatty Police or the Lardass Patrol?

As for the first, pot houses are a result of criminalizing the growth and sale of MJ.  If one could legally grow it in the garden or Archer Daniels Midland could grow it across Kansas, growing it inside a house would not be economically feasible.  The other associated criminality is already illegal and is made more common due to the illegality of MJ.

I think KGBS & others have your number, after reading your weak response to direct questions.





(1) MJ use vs use of violence on someone who used MJ

[Jamisjockey]

CSD:

You aren't going to win your argument that way, meaning going beyond the immediate bounds of the actions in question(1).  For every link you have of some stoner acting poorly, I can match it with some LEO acting poorly under color of authority.

Or someone who's been drinking a legal substance, alcohol, performing illegal acts while intoxicated. 

It is an irrefutable fact that prohibition makes us less free.

[tyme]

To spell it out, the adolescent stoner harms no one else whilst using MJ.

in order for one to truly believe that it require you to distance yourself from the reality
i think there are a few parents out there who would disagree

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081014111156.htm

That looks like a poorly controlled study, on par with the vast majority of medical science "research".  For instance, were they sure that the people in the study were using home-grown pot, or were they perhaps using marijuana bought on the street, potentially laced with pesticides, heavy metals, and who knows what else?

There is a fair amount of research showing that at least one major class of pesticides are associated with plaques and alzheimer's-like degenerative neural symptoms over time, in lab animals.

How else do you square your cited study against, for instance, http://budfacts.com/243/new-study-proves-that-marijuana-increases-brain-cell-formation/ (relating to a study which gave lab rats pure synthetic THC derivatives)

[Tallpine]

no  but if you and the other gun owners allow one of the boys to run amok and grin amongst yourselves and tacitly approve and cooperate you can't whine when as a result some new onerous laws gets passed to regulate the behavior you enabled.

Oh - you mean like the gun show "loophole" 

 

[makattak]

Ignore him if you will, but C&S Daddy has a good point.

If your goal is medical marijuana for the people who need it as the best treatment for their pain, you should not take as allies those who wish to use MM for a backdoor legalization.

Further, attacking people who have legitimate concerns about drug legalization when you are trying to protect medical marijuana will only serve to convince people that medical marijuana is simply a scam for de facto legalization. (As many people have reported California has become.)

One of C&S Daddy's points is that the medical marijuana proponents have adopted the full legalization crowd as allies. He is saying that if you are actually concerned about having this drug available for legitimate medical purposes, you should be working to expose fraud and abuse.

Sort of like if a gun store was publicly helping people make Straw Purchases so that prohibited people could get guns. Perhaps we may believe that too many people are prohibited from purchasing guns, but we would SOUNDLY condemn that store and work to get them shut down because they hurt the cause of gun rights. Those who wish to get medical marijuana should be reporting and working against those who are using it as a scam.

[PTK]

Those who wish to get medical marijuana should be reporting and working against those who are using it as a scam.

So by that reasoning is it MY responsibility as a gun owner/user to go hunt down anyone who misuses a firearm 

So the stoners should go vigilante on other stoners...? 

Sorry, that argument has already left the building.

[makattak]

Sorry, that argument has already left the building.

Sort of like if a gun store was publicly helping people make Straw Purchases so that prohibited people could get guns. Perhaps we may believe that too many people are prohibited from purchasing guns, but we would SOUNDLY condemn that store and work to get them shut down because they hurt the cause of gun rights. Those who wish to get medical marijuana should be reporting and working against those who are using it as a scam.

So, apparently medical marijuana isn't important enough for you to do a little policing?

You'll note, I never suggested vigilante action. I suggested reporting the people who you know are scamming the system.

I shouldn't have to police the gun owners/shops that willfully pursue straw purchases. If I value my rights, I will do so because I realize how their malfeasance will reflect on lawful gun owners.

[makattak]

Incidentally, this is a critique of strategy not a question of morality.

[MicroBalrog]

If your goal is medical marijuana for the people who need it as the best treatment for their pain, you should not take as allies those who wish to use MM for a backdoor legalization.

If your goal is shall-issue concealed carry and stopping new gun laws from passing, you should not take as allies those who wish to use that as a first step towards repealing the Gun Control Act.

[makattak]

If your goal is shall-issue concealed carry and stopping new gun laws from passing, you should not take as allies those who wish to use that as a first step towards repealing the Gun Control Act.

Not what I said. In fact, not even close.

But, ignore the problems of turning a blind eye to law breakers who are your ostensible allies.

[makattak]

You'll note I have said nothing about people who view MM as a FIRST STEP, or an incremental step to their goal.

I have consistently said the problem is those who get that first step and then use it as though they got their goal of full legalization. The problem isn't those who want the law to be relaxed further, the problem is those that don't really care because they are just going to scam the system with even the smallest relaxation of the laws. Were it just a small minority, that wouldn't be a problem.

[Jamisjockey]

You'll note I have said nothing about people who view MM as a FIRST STEP, or an incremental step to their goal.

I have consistently said the problem is those who get that first step and then use it as though they got their goal of full legalization. The problem isn't those who want the law to be relaxed further, the problem is those that don't really care because they are just going to scam the system with even the smallest relaxation of the laws. Were it just a small minority, that wouldn't be a problem.

Guns rights activists do it all the time.  Look at the unloaded gun protests in some states (open carrying an open gun). 

[makattak]

Guns rights activists do it all the time.  Look at the unloaded gun protests in some states (open carrying an open gun).  

So they are breaking the law to do this?

There's a difference between doing something legal that makes people uncomfortable and breaking the law.

[mtnbkr]

Sorry, that argument has already left the building.

Huh?  Weren't you the one some time a year or so ago bragging how you called out someone who pilfered some candy at a candy store?  If that was worth policing (and it didn't directly involve you then either), why isn't is worthwhile to police "activists" in the MM debate?

I'm a horrible influence. If it were any other "small" crime besides theft, this wouldn't have irked me so damn much...

My SO and I were standing in a local store (Target) getting a bag of jelly beans. While browsing the selection, a mid-20s woman grabs a small handful of by-the-pound candy and starts eating while walking away. Note, please, that there is a sign very clearly stating "NO SAMPLES".

Seeing this, and still being quite bothered by thieves of any flavor due to a recent home invasion, I call out, "Thief! Stealing is unlawful."

Nigh-instantly I have a 6'5" 180lb-ish man standing not two feet from my face shouting about how I'm just a "fat f__k" (5'11", ~260lbs of muscle), "know it all", and I better watch it or I'll "have a limp in both legs" (I walk with a cane due to an injury in the left ankle and the cane itself makes a great in-hand weapon).

Meanwhile, the woman is looking very scared/upset and is putting back the remaining candy she stole. That alone made undergoing the verbal abuse worth it - maybe she won't steal in the future...

In any case, the man, having said his "show", stormed off with the woman.

I feel like I shouldn't have bothered saying anything as it could have ended very poorly - I absolutely hate the thought of drawing on anyone ever again, but such blatant theft bothers me to the core.

Comments? (other than, PTK, take your own advice and STFU!)

So, that's worth making a scene over, but keeping others from co-opting a movement that is truly important to you isn't?

I'm not anti-legalization, just trying to understand the change in opinion.

Chris

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

CSD:

You aren't going to win your argument that way, meaning going beyond the immediate bounds of the actions in question(1).  For every link you have of some stoner acting poorly, I can match it with some LEO acting poorly under color of authority.

i thought that your failed premise was that an adolescent stoner hurt no one but himself? are you backing off that? do you think an adolescent stoner doesn't hurt his parents? siblings?  i mean in real life  not some college coffee house abstract discussion

In this case, your response is pathetically weak, as your second link only demonstrates harm for the MJ user.  I could link to other substances, that abused, also harm the user.  Food, for one, causes much, much more damage to abusers than MJ does, what with cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and other obesity-related ailments.  Ought we commission some LEOs for the Fatty Police or the Lardass Patrol?

As for the first, pot houses are a result of criminalizing the growth and sale of MJ.  If one could legally grow it in the garden or Archer Daniels Midland could grow it across Kansas, growing it inside a house would not be economically feasible. 

even in the areas where it is legal folk grow it inside .  for several good reasons.
its amusing to me. i was a wake and bake guy for more than 2 decades, and grew or assisted in growing a bit of weed.  the pontificating from the bleachers is akin to my writing first person about the joys of child birth. i daily am involved with young stoners who are attempting to reorder their lives and the glib "stuff " i am hearing is funny.  what i see here is "reefer madness" in reverse. i was pro legalization before many of you were born and remain so.  trying to float that principle on a sea of manure is serious fail and counter productive. recent reversals in the limited progress prove that point.

 The other associated criminality is already illegal and is made more common due to the illegality of MJ.

I think KGBS & others have your number, after reading your weak response to direct questions.





(1) MJ use vs use of violence on someone who used MJ

[Tallpine]

So, that's worth making a scene over, but keeping others from co-opting a movement that is truly important to you isn't?

Mal in se vs mal prohibitum