Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ron on February 11, 2013, 09:08:16 AM
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It's official: The drone war has come home to America. Wanted fugitive Christopher Dorner, the homicidal former cop currently at war with the LAPD, has become the first known human target for airborne drones on U.S. soil. Their use was confirmed by Customs and Border Patrol spokesman Ralph DeSio, who revealed the government's fear that Dorner will make a dash for the Mexican border.
http://now.msn.com/christopher-dorner-is-first-drone-target-on-us-soil#scptmfs
Not sure anything more needs to be said, I guess we all knew it was inevitable [tinfoil]
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No confirmation in the article whether they mean "target" in terms of a Hellfire from 30,000 feet, or tracking/interdiction target.
I propose Claire Wolf's "time" advances another notch if the former.
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Probably just surveillance/tracking. Then again, we could expect anything from those drunk on power.
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The drones arent armed. Really no different in this case than a helo like they've been using (and a lot more cost effective). Same sensors (FLIR).
Oh and theyve been using UAVs for border survellience for a while. ZOMG!!!111!!!!!
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They are probably going to use this as a show case to bolster the popularity of drone use. The problem with drones is that their cost effectiveness makes the use of ubiquitous surveillance budget-feasible. That's not good.
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If you don't believe that drones have been used over US soil for several years and to track US citizens, you're sorely mistaken.
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If you don't believe that drones have been used over US soil for several years and to track US citizens, you're sorely mistaken.
Yep
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My worry is that they now feel comfortable making it public knowledge. Typically, that means they have already taken the next step in secret.
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CA cops, unable to distinguish two women delivering newspapers from their fugitive, shot them, their vehicle (a different make and model from the fugitive's), along with nearby homes and parked cars. If cops RIGHT ON THE SCENE can't identify their target any better than that, the idea of an ARMED drone being used domestically bothers me.
A lot.
(I don't believe they've deployed armed drones stateside yet.)
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If you don't believe that drones have been used over US soil for several years and to track US citizens, you're sorely mistaken.
Yup. Just look at some of the names on the latest UAV COA release by the FAA.
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This time, a SILVER *expletive deleted*ing XTERRA
At least they had the make right this time.
But it's ok. They're scared, and... um... officer safety!
http://www.nodeju.com/36249/police-shoot-at-third-innocent-victim-looking-for-christopher-dorner.html
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This time, a SILVER *expletive deleted* XTERRA
At least they had the make right this time.
But it's ok. They're scared, and... um... officer safety!
http://www.nodeju.com/36249/police-shoot-at-third-innocent-victim-looking-for-christopher-dorner.html
LAPD is gonna earn themselves a civil uprising.
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LAPD is gonna earn themselves a civil uprising.
And you know what? They'll deserve it.
If they kill an innocent black man, they'll REALLY be *expletive deleted*ed.
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I wouldn't stand for this stuff in PHX, I'll tell you right now. There'd be some serious phone trees and planning going on. Libertarians, voluntaryists, tea partiers, 2A supporters, whatever. This is abhorrent to the notion of civilization.
I guarantee you someone in LA has the same thought.
If there isn't a siege on city hall or a major PD precinct the next time... I'll be shocked.
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Does anyone know if the cops involved in each of these incidents were beat cops, or if they were called out of their desk jobs to help with the manhunt? It doesn't justify the result either way, but THREE times!?! I'm trying to figure out if it's beat cops that watched one too many Lethal Weapon movies, or untrained cops that are scared stiff that they may actually have an equally armed opponent and are shooting at anything that moves. It's looking like the latter to me at this point. They're starting to remind me of the recurring hysterical character in bad sci-fi movies that always seals himself in the escape pod and lets everyone else die so he can get away.
On the face of it, even (especially) the first incident is difficult for them to justify, but I would have been willing to give anyone their day in court. But again, THREE times now?
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This time, a SILVER *expletive deleted* XTERRA
At least they had the make right this time.
But it's ok. They're scared, and... um... officer safety!
http://www.nodeju.com/36249/police-shoot-at-third-innocent-victim-looking-for-christopher-dorner.html
i can't find another source for that third shooting. and the stories got some other interesting qwirks. i'd take it with several grains of salt
drones have been used for years
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All this fuss and bother over someone who is probably a vengencecicle by now.
Read a bit into Rambro's manifesto. Looks to me, he has gone all First Blood because folks used the n-word. Especially two Mexican-descent cops who refused to apologize to him for it. He makes a big deal about it and says he beat on someone for using it.
Dude is definitely not hero of the revolution material.
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All this fuss and bother over someone who is probably a vengencecicle by now.
Read a bit into Rambro's manifesto. Looks to me, he has gone all First Blood because folks used the n-word. Especially two Mexican-descent cops who refused to apologize to him for it. He makes a big deal about it and says he beat on someone for using it.
Dude is definitely not hero of the revolution material.
hey! thats my line! >:D
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All this fuss and bother over someone who is probably a vengencecicle by now.
Read a bit into Rambro's manifesto. Looks to me, he has gone all First Blood because folks used the n-word. Especially two Mexican-descent cops who refused to apologize to him for it. He makes a big deal about it and says he beat on someone for using it.
Dude is definitely not hero of the revolution material.
I suspect very much many people who kicked off actual revolutions - including many who are revered today for starting very decent revolutions - were nasty pieces of work in their own right.
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I suspect very much many people who kicked off actual revolutions - including many who are revered today for starting very decent revolutions - were nasty pieces of work in their own right.
This.
And make no mistake, any would-be revolutionary today would fall squarely into the terrorist classification of bad guys.
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The normalizing of the use of surveillance drones is why I find this provocative.
Once the use of drones is SOP, normal and prevalent so will the misuse become SOP, normal and prevalent.
If anything embodies the spirit of "Big Brother" the expansion of drone surveillance on citizens who have not been found guilty of a crime sure does.
I'm afraid that is where we are heading.
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The normalizing of the use of surveillance drones is why I find this provocative.
Once the use of drones is SOP, normal and prevalent so will the misuse become SOP, normal and prevalent.
If anything embodies the spirit of "Big Brother" the expansion of drone surveillance on citizens who have not been found guilty of a crime sure does.
I'm afraid that is where we are heading.
http://westernfarmpress.com/government/epa-surveillance-drones-concern-agriculture-industry
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This time, a SILVER *expletive deleted* XTERRA
At least they had the make right this time.
But it's ok. They're scared, and... um... officer safety!
http://www.nodeju.com/36249/police-shoot-at-third-innocent-victim-looking-for-christopher-dorner.html
I'm pretty sure this is the second shooting being rehashed with a misleading headline. (not your fault, it tricked me too until I read the driver's name.) The first 2 victims were the Asian women and Perdue was number 3.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.googlepixel.com%2Fimages%2Fdronepatrol.jpg&hash=a4dda01ecab3e67006bb60e79ceacb28176e3cd9)
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Personally, I have no issue with unarmed civilian agency drones. Hell, they already have helos and fixed wings. And if you consider the fact that many LEO agencies can deliver a fire team of armed officers with a helo, or even use the armed officers for firing on suspects.
No matter what surveillance methods the police use, they still have to climb over the 4th and 5th amendments. Many have bad their hands slapped for peeping with IR tech into homes and onto properties.
My issue will always be WHOSE drones are being cruised across our skies.
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I'm pretty sure this is the second shooting being rehashed with a misleading headline. (not your fault, it tricked me too until I read the driver's name.) The first 2 victims were the Asian women and Perdue was number 3.
neither of the others drove an exterra . and the dead girls father wasn't police chief either. captain. but hey its the internet who's checking
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.googlepixel.com%2Fimages%2Fdronepatrol.jpg&hash=a4dda01ecab3e67006bb60e79ceacb28176e3cd9)
These are not the drones you're looking for....
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There are stories on major outlets with a tacoma, and pictures.
There are stories on major outlets with the pic of the Silver Xterra I posted above
And there are stories talking about a man in a honda ridgeline
Three discrete vehicles.
Ridgeline and tacoma are both in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Sami6ovG5OM
So, i'd say the silver xterra i posted makes three, yes?
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There are stories on major outlets with the pic of the Silver Xterra I posted above
Tineye couldn't find other instances of the photo, and a half dozen assorted Google searches didn't turn anything up.
As for the pic, what department is the car at left, behind the LAPD one, and does anybody recognize the location?
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Well, if it's two vehicles, that's still two too many.
Officer safety, though. Guess you dont wanna own a truck in LA right now
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Officer safety, though. Guess you dont wanna own a truck in LA right now
I don't wanna be near a truck in LA.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpictures.topspeed.com%2FIMG%2Fcrop%2F201302%2Fpolice-officers-take_600x0w.jpg&hash=6c39af6ed3cc1ec588056d8d4b5c4fa874295fe7)
Look at that spread! And that's just the ones that didn't completely miss the truck.
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There are stories on major outlets with a tacoma, and pictures.
There are stories on major outlets with the pic of the Silver Xterra I posted above
And there are stories talking about a man in a honda ridgeline
Three discrete vehicles.
Ridgeline and tacoma are both in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Sami6ovG5OM
So, i'd say the silver xterra i posted makes three, yes?
David Perdue was the guy they rammed and shot at a few days ago. The silver Xterra might not have anything to do with anything and is just misleading? Or maybe there was a 3rd vehicle shot-up by police and the reporter switched gears in mid-story to talk about David Perdue.
I think the headline and the picture just imply there was a third car-shooting incident when really there was only two. (even though 3 fits my prejudices better)
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What is the legal argument against pressing criminal charges on someone who shoots up innocents like that? I mean seriously, can anyone explain what is the legal theory or framework that exempts individual police officers from any criminal or civil liability when they initiate aggression as in these cases?
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What is the legal argument against pressing criminal charges on someone who shoots up innocents like that? I mean seriously, can anyone explain what is the legal theory or framework that exempts individual police officers from any criminal or civil liability when they initiate aggression as in these cases?
I think it's called "professional courtesy" between the PD's and the prosecutors.
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I don't wanna be near a truck in LA.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpictures.topspeed.com%2FIMG%2Fcrop%2F201302%2Fpolice-officers-take_600x0w.jpg&hash=6c39af6ed3cc1ec588056d8d4b5c4fa874295fe7)
Look at that spread! And that's just the ones that didn't completely miss the truck.
shot gun hulls are visible in some pics
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What is the legal argument against pressing criminal charges on someone who shoots up innocents like that? I mean seriously, can anyone explain what is the legal theory or framework that exempts individual police officers from any criminal or civil liability when they initiate aggression as in these cases?
Officer safety!!
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Officer safety!!
If anything, not punishing these events puts more officers at risk. If criminals know that LAPD's first reaction is to light up vehicles without attempting to stop or arrest, what will the criminals' response be to seeing the flashing lights?....
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This.
And make no mistake, any would-be revolutionary today would fall squarely into the terrorist classification of bad guys.
that depends on who's left to write the history books.
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that depends on who's left to write the history books.
True, dat.
Samuel Whittemore was a 3-time war veteran with significant PTSD and anger issues who decided to ambush Agents of the State on the Lexington road in the town of Menotomy. His cowardly act of repeated murder with an arsenal of firearms prompted an officer to dispatch a team of soldiers to affect an arrest. As the soldiers neared, Whittemore drew his stolen army-issue sabre with a snarl and made to attack the men like a wounded animal. The soldiers had no choice but to fire upon Whittemore, but the man clearly was intoxicated with some substance producing rage and fortitude. Ultimately Whittemore was immobilized to the ground with bayonets, and stricken unconscious with a precise blow to the head.
=|
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LAPD now has as many as 300 cops committed full-time to protecting their own. Why can't they just put all of the "targets" in a hotel? With this strategy we will need an entire police state to provide a modicum of peace and safety in our society.
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LAPD now has as many as 300 cops committed full-time to protecting their own. Why can't they just put all of the "targets" in a hotel? With this strategy we will need an entire police state to provide a modicum of peace and safety in our society.
I think that's precisely the point
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I don't wanna be near a truck in LA.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpictures.topspeed.com%2FIMG%2Fcrop%2F201302%2Fpolice-officers-take_600x0w.jpg&hash=6c39af6ed3cc1ec588056d8d4b5c4fa874295fe7)
Look at that spread! And that's just the ones that didn't completely miss the truck.
What strikes me is the house directly in front of that truck. Rule #4 fail.
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What strikes me is the house directly in front of that truck. Rule #4 fail.
One news report I saw had police bullets striking homes and parked cars, setting off the alarm on at least one.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwesternrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F02%2F604092_10151310216180665_72544288_n.jpg&hash=2cf5cec5867d7c2e1149b760a73cff188b6dd046)
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Hey, the LAPD is batting 0.500 regarding the four rules of gun safety. Too bad they are not playing baseball, they might be considered professionals.
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Looks like it'll be over soon:http://touch.latimes.com/#section/718/article/p2p-74396356/ (http://touch.latimes.com/#section/718/article/p2p-74396356/)
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good riddance
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Aww. And here i was going to call the lapd to report that i saw an
asianlarge black mantoday thst might be dorne
r.
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If they kill him, they don't have to pay the $1MM reward ;)
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Come on Dorner just present a nice shot for the sniper...dont surrender, nobody likes a quitter!
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Come on Dorner just present a nice shot for the sniper...dont surrender, nobody likes a quitter!
damn i thought i was harsh
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One sheriff's deputy died and another was wounded Tuesday afternoon during a dramatic gunfight with the man authorities believe to be Christopher Dorner, the fugitive former Los Angeles cop wanted in three murders and a revenge shooting rampage across Southern California.
Even now, they admit they could have just attacked some other random citizen who didn't take it as passively as the last three.
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Last I heard the LAPD public spokesperson said.. "yeah, well.. we don't really know it is him.. but it's a safe bet" (paraphrased)
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Even now, they admit they could have just attacked some other random citizen armed carjacker who didn't take it as passively as the last three.
fixed that detail you missed
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They tear gassed the place, then minutes later it was on fire.
Words cannot express... I really hope they got the right guy.
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http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/report-ex-cop-fugitive-shoot-police-213309749.html
the cabin he was holed up in is on fire. lapd is keeping the fire dept at a safe distance. they are also telling news crews "no live feeds".
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http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/report-ex-cop-fugitive-shoot-police-213309749.html
the cabin he was holed up in is on fire. lapd is keeping the fire dept at a safe distance. they are also telling news crews "no live feeds".
Of course. Wouldn't want the cameras rolling when they burn him out and mozambique him
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Of course. Wouldn't want the cameras rolling when they burn him out and mozambique him
Especially if it turns out not to be the right guy...
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Remember, it's ok to attempt to murder people without positive ID... as long as you say the words "officer safety"
How long between the exchange of fire and the tear gas/assault on the cabin? anyone know?
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damn i thought i was harsh
I have a low opinion of murderers.
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We need al jones to give us the voice of moderation here
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They tear gassed the place, then minutes later it was on fire.
Waco?
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http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/report-ex-cop-fugitive-shoot-police-213309749.html
the cabin he was holed up in is on fire. lapd is keeping the fire dept at a safe distance. they are also telling news crews "no live feeds".
Shocked it turned out this way I tell you, shocked! ;/
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Waco?
If the report is accurate, I'm sure this is the very first time a pyrotechnic tear gas cartridge has led to a fire.
I won't shed any tears over a multiple murderer getting roasted, but I'm not very comfortable with law enforcement using fire offensively.
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If the report is accurate, I'm sure this is the very first time a pyrotechnic tear gas cartridge has led to a fire.
I won't shed any tears over a multiple murderer getting roasted, but I'm not very comfortable with law enforcement using fire offensively.
Basically this.
The perp is a shithead... but so are the cops using heavy handed tactics against the civilians, and roasting this guy.
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Are we sure they got the right guy?....or are there two more Asian women gone missing?.....
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In the wake of all the revolution talk, this latest revulsion to cop killers from the conservative element is telling.
I now suspect that we have much better chances of seeing WW3 than Civil War II in the next 20 years.
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They tear gassed the place, then minutes later it was on fire.
Words cannot express... I really hope they got the right guy.
Well, that's quite upstanding and honorable on the part of LAPD. Good for them, burning to death the angry black man in the house. I guess you only try to wait out angry black men and hold off shooting their vehicle all to hell if they are rich? (OJ Simpson).
These guys are mercenaries with a sole interest in controlling the narrative so it only has one story.
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In the wake of all the revolution talk, this latest revulsion to cop killers from the conservative element is telling.
I now suspect that we have much better chances of seeing WW3 than Civil War II in the next 20 years.
You do realized he killed two non LE citizens dont you? In addition to the two cops he killed and one he critically wounded?
Oh and yeah I have a revulsion for murderers which he was, and I count LEOs who stand with us on 2A matters as my allies.
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You do realized he killed two non LE citizens dont you? In addition to the two cops he killed and one he critically wounded?
Oh and yeah I have a revulsion for murderers which he was, and I count LEOs who stand with us on 2A matters as my allies.
Of course. The LAPD as a whole, and the ones who shoot up innocents in vehicles without PID, are not our allies, however.
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Burning down the house... that's just wrong.
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You will respect their authority.
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Cops say: Burn it down?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sisVskohj1k
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I hope there weren't any hostages in there.
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"Get the burner...
Get the gas. Burn it down. Burn it down."
Those poor, poor cops ;/
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I hope there weren't any hostages in there.
acceptable collateral damage
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Breaking News: No body was found in the burning cabin.
The cabin is still too hot for authorities to enter.
All previous reports that Dorner is dead are false at this time.
This is per Fox News live in CA.
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Breaking News: No body was found in the burning cabin.
:rofl: Now that would be funny.
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News story says a body was removed.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/christopher-dorner-manhunt-body-removed-cabin-fugitive-cop/story?id=18480021
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My suspicion is that there is a body and it has been removed. But the fire is still too hot to do much "police work" until it cools down.
Is this the same kind of ending as the Branch Dividians south of Waco? The difference is that Dorner has apparantly committed the crimes he is accused of.
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News story says a body was removed.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/christopher-dorner-manhunt-body-removed-cabin-fugitive-cop/story?id=18480021
LAPD issued a statement refuting the abc story
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My suspicion is that there is a body and it has been removed. But the fire is still too hot to do much "police work" until it cools down.
Is this the same kind of ending as the Branch Dividians south of Waco? The difference is that Dorner has apparantly committed the crimes he is accused of.
I wonder what would happen if a family member of the people the cops shot chased a few cops into a cabin then lit it on fire.
I'm sure it would go the same for them. Right?
Right?
... Guys?
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I hope dorner is still alive. Not that i care much about him. He's just doing the best job in the world that anyone could do short of ragnar danjeskold of showing how brutish and stupid government jackboot agents can truly be. The longer the public sees it, the more the state has to build webs of lies and justifications to buy itself excuses, until it runs out.
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He certainly has that effect.
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You do realized he killed two non LE citizens dont you? In addition to the two cops he killed and one he critically wounded?
Oh and yeah I have a revulsion for murderers which he was, and I count LEOs who stand with us on 2A matters as my allies.
You're reading too much into it. I'm just using it and similar comments as a barometer of the logistical practicality of a revolution. In order to work, a revolution requires a significant element of the population to simultaneously: 1) support the cause 2) hate the enemy (and the footsoldiers supporting the enemy). If they don't hate the enemy, they'll have a really tough time understanding why somebody would feel the need to shoot that enemy, just like the average pro-lifer is going to be horrified by an abortion clinic bomber, and would very likely drop a dime on 'em.
P.S. If this post makes absolutely no sense, it's probably the fever talking.
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LAPD issued a statement refuting the abc story
Why would LAPD issue a statement about a San Bernadino Sheriff's Dept. op?....
Meanwhile..... http://dailycurrant.com/2013/02/12/police-shoot-jazz-band-members-dorner-manhunt/
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Meanwhile..... http://dailycurrant.com/2013/02/12/police-shoot-jazz-band-members-dorner-manhunt/
You almost got me with that one. First time I've seen anything from The Daily Currant. :facepalm:
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a news blurb said dorner torched the cabin himself, when he tried to use a smoke grenade for concealment. :rofl:
i never cared whether it was citizens, or citizens in uniform that he killed. murder is murder. however, i wasn't there and would have been interested in the outcome of a trial.
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[tinfoil]
Why do I get the impression that a lot of things happening lately could be false flag operations?
We have had over the last year several instances of way over the top violence, where the perp(s) simply more or less disappeared afterwards, incredibly inconsistant media reporting followed by a scrubbing of original reports, .gov sharpening their knives to carve up the rest of our civil rights (2nd amendment, using drones)....
[/tinfoil]
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CBS reported he was using a .50 cal during the final gunfight.
They implied Dorner started the fire then offed himself.
We will never know what really happened and with Dorner being such a bad guy nobody will care.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the negligent shootings the police engaged in where they attacked innocent people. Probably big payoffs, little to no disciplinary action and a media blackout on that aspect.
It does seem that there are more folks having psychological breaks and taking up arms. Maybe if I get rid of my guns I'll be safer.
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CBS reported he was using a .50 cal during the final gunfight.
They implied Dorner started the fire then offed himself.
We will never know what really happened and with Dorner being such a bad guy nobody will care.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the negligent shootings the police engaged in where they attacked innocent people. Probably big payoffs, little to no disciplinary action and a media blackout on that aspect.
It does seem that there are more folks having psychological breaks and taking up arms. Maybe if I get rid of my guns I'll be safer.
Yes you would be safer. Send them to me and I will care for them. =D
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They implied Dorner started the fire
Where did we hear that before ... =|
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Where did we hear that before ... =|
Billy Joel?
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The real Dorner question: Not why was he fired, but why was he hired?
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-real-dorner-question-not-why-was-he.html
As usual, the opposite question from the one being obsessed over in the media seems more worthy of investigation: Why was this highly defective individual hired in the first place? Why did the LAPD, which is big enough to afford the most sophisticated screening processes, ever give this man a badge and a gun?
Obviously, if Nidal Hasan could become a major in the army despite expressing terrorist sympathies and communicating with known terrorists, then this clown could easily slip into the police academy.
Notice that this LAPD washout still has an incredibly high sense of self esteem despite being a total failure in life. He is a monster of the Left's creation and there are literally millions like him. They are more dangerous than any white supremacist with an AR 15.
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CBS reported he was using a .50 cal during the final gunfight.
Well when you're actively shooting at the cops they don't just stand on their perimiter taking hits, they are going to do something about it. Like try to gas you out.
This ain't no Waco, despite how some desperately want it to be ;/
The real Dorner question: Not why was he fired, but why was he hired?
I'll tell you the reason. Affirmative action, baby. It's a wonderful thing! It's what got my idiot boss hired with no experience for an advanced position over several highly qualified men...HR loves to overrule on hiring decisions like that. It is a MAJOR problem in today's society.
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Affirmative action is the ultimate assault weapon.
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[tinfoil]
Why do I get the impression that a lot of things happening lately could be false flag operations?
We have had over the last year several instances of way over the top violence, where the perp(s) simply more or less disappeared afterwards, incredibly inconsistant media reporting followed by a scrubbing of original reports, .gov sharpening their knives to carve up the rest of our civil rights (2nd amendment, using drones)....
[/tinfoil]
It's the Pax. The G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate that we added to the air processors. It was supposed to calm the population, weed out aggression. Well, it works. The people here stopped fighting. And then they stopped everything else. They stopped going to work, they stopped breeding, talking, eating. There's 30 million people here, and they all just let themselves die.
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Well when you're actively shooting at the cops they don't just stand on their perimiter taking hits, they are going to do something about it. Like try to gas you out.
This ain't no Waco, despite how some desperately want it to be ;/
I totally agree, however:
1. Tear gas deployed against a structure leading to fire seems to happen an awful lot. It may just be selection bias, but it feels like it is intentionally used in some cases as an incendiary weapon.
2. I have a strong aversion to law enforcement using fire as a weapon. Even in situations where I feel a hail of gunfire would be an appropriate response (as seems to be the case here), cops burning someone out feels wrong. Maybe my concern is because fire is indiscriminate and could easily kill innocents. Maybe it is because being burned alive scares me in a deep, animal way. Maybe it just reminds me of the George Washington quote about fire and government. Whatever the case, if police are using tear gas to intentionally torch structures - even if they are pretty sure the only person in the structure is someone who needs killing - I think they are in the wrong.
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Tear gas deployed against a structure leading to fire
It's the nature of the gas cannister.
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I totally agree, however:
1. Tear gas deployed against a structure leading to fire seems to happen an awful lot. It may just be selection bias, but it feels like it is intentionally used in some cases as an incendiary weapon.
2. I have a strong aversion to law enforcement using fire as a weapon. Even in situations where I feel a hail of gunfire would be an appropriate response (as seems to be the case here), cops burning someone out feels wrong. Maybe my concern is because fire is indiscriminate and could easily kill innocents. Maybe it is because being burned alive scares me in a deep, animal way. Maybe it just reminds me of the George Washington quote about fire and government. Whatever the case, if police are using tear gas to intentionally torch structures - even if they are pretty sure the only person in the structure is someone who needs killing - I think they are in the wrong.
Agreed. Setting a structure ablaze is deploying an indiscriminate weapon.
At what point will law enforcement be able to simply level a building with an airstrike/mortars/artillery because there might be someone in there who is too dangerous?
"Be sure of your target, and what's beyond it."
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"Be sure of your target, and what's beyond it."
Obviously only for us proles. Our betters don't have to worry about that.
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Agreed. Setting a structure ablaze is deploying an indiscriminate weapon.
At what point will law enforcement be able to simply level a building with an airstrike/mortars/artillery because there might be someone in there who is too dangerous?
"Be sure of your target, and what's beyond it."
They tried to flush him out with gas but he would not leave the structure. They tried to get him to surrender. He would not. I say that was a fair attempt at getting the situation resolved without killing him.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/christopher-dorner-maids-stumbled-on-suspect-setting-off-chase.html
“I saw some movement within the trees,” he said, and “here comes this guy with a big gun.” Heltebrake said the suspect aimed a gun at his head, but said he didn’t want to hurt either Heltebrake or his dog.
Heltebrake asked if he could get Suni's leash, but the suspect told him no.
Behind the wheel of the stolen truck, the suspect was once again careening down Glass Road, and once again he passed a Fish and Wildlife vehicle coming from the opposite direction. Again an officer recognized the suspect. That driver radioed his colleagues traveling behind him that the suspect was heading in their direction in a silver pickup.
When the suspect saw the second Fish and Wildlife truck approaching, he rolled down his window and took aim. The suspect opened fire into the cab as the vehicles passed just two feet apart, shattering the driver's side window and strafing the state truck with a handgun.
The badly damaged truck skidded to a halt and a game warden, a 35-year-old former Marine, fired 20 rounds from a high-powered rifle as the suspect fled in the hijacked truck.
The suspect subsequently crashed that truck and ran into the woods. He ended up in the cabin. A firefight ensued. Two San Bernardino County sheriff’s deputies were shot; one was pronounced dead at a hospital, while another is undergoing surgery. Hundreds of rounds were fired in the firefight.
According to a law enforcement source, police had broken windows, fired tear gas into the cabin and urged, over a loud speaker, the man they believed to be Dorner to surrender. When they got no response, authorities deployed a vehicle to rip down the walls of the cabin "one by one, like peeling an onion," a law enforcement official said.
By the time they got to the last wall, authorities heard a single gunshot, the source said. Then flames began to spread through the structure, and gunshots, probably set off by the fire, were heard.
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Cops say: Burn it down?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sisVskohj1k
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Dorner's wallet found in ruins of burned down house:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/02/12/christopher-dorner-ex-cop-los-angeles-mexico/1912553/
A wallet with a California driver's license bearing the name Christopher Dorner also was found, the Associated Press reported, citing a law enforcement official who was briefed on the investigation but declined to be named because of the ongoing probe.
Dorner's wallet found at a coastal port near the US-Mexico border:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/dorner-manhunt-ex-cop-may-got-help.html
After authorities interviewed the boat captain early Thursday, they found Dorner's wallet and identification cards "at the San Ysidro Point of Entry" near the U.S.-Mexico border. That same day, a guard at the Point Loma Naval Base told authorities he had spotted a man matching Dorner's description trying sneak onto the base, according to the court records.
Well...
Which is it?
Did he visit the DMV and get another license sent to him?
Did he segregate his identity cards and leave a library card and military ID in one wallet and keep driver's license and other ID in another? (Really? Come on. His driver's license in a different wallet than his other ID? You want to give this guy credit for being cagey enough to deliberately plant ID on one exit plan and then disappear elsewhere with another set of ID? He's not that smart.)
Or is Dorner not dead, and the burned house in Big Bear actually has no one in it?
Or is the LA Times story about Dorner seeking a boat to take him to Mexico a baloney story?
[tinfoil]
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It's the nature of the gas cannister.
So it seems
They tried to flush him out with gas but he would not leave the structure. They tried to get him to surrender. He would not. I say that was a fair attempt at getting the situation resolved without killing him.
I'm not complaining about killing him at all, just the idea of using fire as a weapon.
Did he segregate his identity cards and leave a library card and military ID in one wallet and keep driver's license and other ID in another? (Really? Come on. His driver's license in a different wallet than his other ID? You want to give this guy credit for being cagey enough to deliberately plant ID on one exit plan and then disappear elsewhere with another set of ID? He's not that smart.)
He was a former cop. The moment he crossed the line, an ID became essentially worthless to him except as a distraction. Using some of his IDs as a distraction would be entirely reasonable for someone with police experience, not a sign of tactical brilliance. I'm surprised he hadn't already ditched his operator license to try to cast a false trail. It's not like he would be worried about getting a ticket for driving without a license.
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So a dangerous fugitive breaking into my house is a warrant to burn down my house ???
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So a dangerous fugitive breaking into my house is a warrant to burn down my house ???
Of course... And if you are lucky, they will try and see whether or not you are there before they burn it down
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They tried to flush him out with gas but he would not leave the structure. They tried to get him to surrender. He would not. I say that was a fair attempt at getting the situation resolved without killing him.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/christopher-dorner-maids-stumbled-on-suspect-setting-off-chase.html
All they had to do was wait. Time was on their side. Cut the utilities, keep the TV people away. Everyone has to sleep sometime. No need to for gas or fire or anything else. Don't even have to talk to him (but that helps to keep him awake). Just had to give it time.
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I totally agree, however:
1. Tear gas deployed against a structure leading to fire seems to happen an awful lot. It may just be selection bias, but it feels like it is intentionally used in some cases as an incendiary weapon.
2. I have a strong aversion to law enforcement using fire as a weapon. Even in situations where I feel a hail of gunfire would be an appropriate response (as seems to be the case here), cops burning someone out feels wrong. Maybe my concern is because fire is indiscriminate and could easily kill innocents. Maybe it is because being burned alive scares me in a deep, animal way. Maybe it just reminds me of the George Washington quote about fire and government. Whatever the case, if police are using tear gas to intentionally torch structures - even if they are pretty sure the only person in the structure is someone who needs killing - I think they are in the wrong.
3. It causes for a longer and less certain investigation after the fact.
Case in point, they still don't have confirmation that he's actually dead.
So, basically, if they were wrong (and considering their track record so far, it's highly possible) a murderer could still be happily running amook the streets of CA and now he's got less manpower on his tail.
Burning stuff down is counter productive to both sides, and the only justification for it is one that isn't acceptible for LEO.
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So they found his wallet among the burnt ashes, with a still legible ID, but no body?
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http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5414302&postcount=86
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http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5414302&postcount=86
Yeah, lots of audio from on-site reporters as well as scanner traffic coming out that - if legit - pretty clearly indicates that fire was the goal.
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All they had to do was wait. Time was on their side. Cut the utilities, keep the TV people away. Everyone has to sleep sometime. No need to for gas or fire or anything else. Don't even have to talk to him (but that helps to keep him awake). Just had to give it time.
When he's actively shooting, and word has it with a .50BMG, yes you take him down ASAP or suffer more casualties. And they countered lethal force with lethal force. Someoone's shooting at you. Just wait them out? Really??
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Arson is not legit SOP for any police force. Or it shouldn't be.
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When he's actively shooting, and word has it with a .50BMG, yes you take him down ASAP or suffer more casualties. And they countered lethal force with lethal force. Someoone's shooting at you. Just wait them out? Really??
Well, those of us with both a moral sense and a passing familiarity with the Four Rules might, given the circumstances.
1. Hostages/innocent third parties? LEOs on site did not know if there were any in the structure.
2. Damage to some third party's property? Us plebes are held responsible for burning down folks' houses.
3. Use of fire in an area notorious for arid conditions and wildfires. Even in winter, incendiary bits caught in the updraft can ignite fodder, shingles, etc.
So, if the LEOs on site deliberately used fire, or used means that could reasonably lead to conflagration, they are fools and moral retards. And ought to be shunned by decent folk.
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Burning combatants out is a military tactic. It should NOT be a civilian tactic. They might as well have torched the place with gasoline. This is a big negative for the police agency. I loose respect. I don't care if it would have taken a month to get him. Same goes for the Branch Dividians.
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It's the nature of the gas cannister.
Is that a bug or a feature?....
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i listened to the video. got a different spin. i think the word for the day is gonna be propane
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i listened to the video. got a different spin. i think the word for the day is gonna be propane
Huh?
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"Deployed 7 burners" per the police radio transcripts.
Yup. Waco.
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When he's actively shooting, and word has it with a .50BMG, yes you take him down ASAP or suffer more casualties. And they countered lethal force with lethal force. Someoone's shooting at you. Just wait them out? Really??
Fire is not acceptable.
Not morally, not tactically, and not reasonable.
It's too easy to lose control of, it's too difficult to deploy with absolute presision, and it's has no positive results.
This is going after a spider with a flamethrower. Yeah, you might kill the spider, but in the process you've destroyed the house and probably hurt yourself.
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Huh?
i think once the fire got started someone popped the propane tank and made sure he got roasted. tear gas wouldn't have got it going that fast. have repaired a house with more than a dozen gas rounds in it. they scorched started small fires. this thing went big fast
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"Deployed 7 burners" per the police radio transcripts.
Yup. Waco.
Bingo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0X-WoiJhVY8#t=60s
Fire is not acceptable.
Not morally, not tactically, and not reasonable.
It's too easy to lose control of, it's too difficult to deploy with absolute presision, and it's has no positive results.
This is going after a spider with a flamethrower. Yeah, you might kill the spider, but in the process you've destroyed the house and probably hurt yourself.
What BSL wrote.
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When he's actively shooting, and word has it with a .50BMG, yes you take him down ASAP or suffer more casualties. And they countered lethal force with lethal force. Someoone's shooting at you. Just wait them out? Really??
So where do you personally draw that line?
Do the cops have to positively identify that the suspect is in the dwelling in question?
What other indiscriminate weapons should they be allowed to use?
Should the cops be able to just chuck a fragmentation hand grenade through a window?
If that's deemed "too dangerous", can they hit the building with an RPG?
How about mortar fire?
An airstrike? A drone strike?
Are they responsible for the financial liability of destroying a third parties property?
Are they responsible for other collateral property damage they cause?
Are they responsible for murder if they use indiscriminate weapons and kill an innocent?
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When cops use warfare tactics to enforce law... there is no more law.
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"Deployed 7 burners" per the police radio transcripts.
Yup. Waco.
Indeed. 7 canisters in such a small structure were not needed if they only using the "burners" as lachrymators.
Moreover, the authorities have been signaling that Dorner wasn't going be taken alive, what with the Chief and Mayor referring to him as "murderer," "terrorist," and "trained assassin," rather than "suspect" and with the two pretty heavy-handed ambushes on innocents.
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Moreover, the authorities have been signaling that Dorner wasn't going be taken alive, what with the Chief and Mayor referring to him as "murderer," "terrorist," and "trained assassin," rather than "suspect" and with the two pretty heavy-handed ambushes on innocents.
I don't understand why California State Troopers (or whatever the state-level law enforcement agency is) didn't take this over from the get-go after the bad shoots and the cop on cop nature of this violence.
LAPD should have never been allowed to retain jurisdiction on this case.
Giving them free rein on this matter is like allowing a pitbull to savage a poodle to death that bit the pitbull. Allowing that deliberately makes you the figurative redneck dogfighting breeder that approves of that behavior. Tells me not only LAPD is trash, but that law enforcement in CA in general is trash.
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I don't understand why California State Troopers (or whatever the state-level law enforcement agency is) didn't take this over from the get-go after the bad shoots and the cop on cop nature of this violence.
LAPD should have never been allowed to retain jurisdiction on this case.
Giving them free rein on this matter is like allowing a pitbull to savage a poodle to death that bit the pitbull. Allowing that deliberately makes you the figurative redneck dogfighting breeder that approves of that behavior. Tells me not only LAPD is trash, but that law enforcement in CA in general is trash.
wait you think lapd did the final shoot out?
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Several observations from this whole mess.
1. Dorner did not plan any of this beyond the initial shootings. He had neither well-planned egress routes nor a series of offensive actions. He executed his last actions on this earth like the rest of his life: plodding along with periodic screw ups to punctuate his inadequacy.
2. America and America's LEOs have yet to face a threat that is both smart and determined to put a hurting on LEOs or authorities.
3. American LEOs, if they are the object of some violent criminal, will shoot up and burn down and smash into people and property indiscriminately in fear and rage. Best course of action for the rest of us is to steer clear. For my part, if something like this went down locally, wife & kids are displacing to grandpa's house eight hours away.
4. When America's LEOs finally do face an adversary that is both smart and determined to put a hurting on LEOs, a lot of LEOs will die. They are not very good at this sort of thing, when all the odds are not stacked in their favor. We have had indications of this, most especially SWAT/tactical teams without a clue regarding sound tactics, techniques, and procedures. Presumably, those SWATties are the best in that department. If they are not up to snuff, the average patrolman is not likely to be accused of adequacy. (Now, some tac teams in some jurisdictions are good, some are very good. They look like the exception, though.)
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I know it was San Bernardino County Sheriff's Office that was providing the bulk of the officers for the manhunt.
I do not know how many LAPD detectives or brass were involved in directing that manhunt, or assisting in it. Or planning final confrontations.
I highly doubt LAPD was absent from this operation.
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1. Dorner did not plan any of this beyond the initial shootings. He had neither well-planned egress routes nor a series of offensive actions. He executed his last actions on this earth like the rest of his life: plodding along with periodic screw ups to punctuate his inadequacy.
The manifest was purely a cover after the murderers. I think at most his plans extended into taking his truck up into the rural area and trying to "bug out into the mountains" (reference the camping gear they found in the truck) and that all went to *expletive deleted*it when he broke his axle on the way up towards his Bug out location. After that...he was just making it up as he went along.
4. When America's LEOs finally do face an adversary that is both smart and determined to put a hurting on LEOs, a lot of LEOs will die. They are not very good at this sort of thing, when all the odds are not stacked in their favor. We have had indications of this, most especially SWAT/tactical teams without a clue regarding sound tactics, techniques, and procedures. Presumably, those SWATties are the best in that department. If they are not up to snuff, the average patrolman is not likely to be accused of adequacy. (Now, some tac teams in some jurisdictions are good, some are very good. They look like the exception, though.)
SWAT trains mainly for CQB entry into structures, active shooter, and hostage standoffs. Rural ops for example, are weak to non-existant skills. Only so much training time can be devoted after all, and rural ops like this, especially massive rural ops, just aren't that common.
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Police spokesperson Officer Friendly :police: answers:
So where do you personally draw that line? >The thin blue line.
Do the cops have to positively identify that the suspect is in the dwelling in question? >No.
What other indiscriminate weapons should they be allowed to use? >What is available?
Should the cops be able to just chuck a fragmentation hand grenade through a window? > Only if equipped with a NY-2 weight trigger pin.
If that's deemed "too dangerous", can they hit the building with an RPG? >RPGs are for trrrsts.
How about mortar fire? >If DHS granted money will cover their purchase...hells yea!
An airstrike? A drone strike? >We're getting there, patience.
Are they responsible for the financial liability of destroying a third parties property? >Officer safety.
Are they responsible for other collateral property damage they cause? >Officer safety.
Are they responsible for murder if they use indiscriminate weapons and kill an innocent? >Officer safety.
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So where do you personally draw that line?
Do the cops have to positively identify that the suspect is in the dwelling in question?
What other indiscriminate weapons should they be allowed to use?
Should the cops be able to just chuck a fragmentation hand grenade through a window?
If that's deemed "too dangerous", can they hit the building with an RPG?
How about mortar fire?
An airstrike? A drone strike?
Are they responsible for the financial liability of destroying a third parties property?
Are they responsible for other collateral property damage they cause?
Are they responsible for murder if they use indiscriminate weapons and kill an innocent?
They can do whatever the hell they want.
1) "qualified immunity"
2) "officer safety" (nobody gives a damn about public safety anymore)
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SWAT trains mainly for CQB entry into structures, active shooter, and hostage standoffs. Rural ops for example, are weak to non-existant skills. Only so much training time can be devoted after all, and rural ops like this, especially massive rural ops, just aren't that common.
Yes, and I claim in point #4 that many SWAT/tac teams are inept at "CQB entry into structures, active shooter, and hostage standoffs." You know, the stuff for which they the taxpayers bought all that hardware.
When folks post "SWAT/no-knock gone wild" videos and vent spleen about the potential hero of the revolution who just got ventilated, my initial scrutiny is at the officers and how they conduct themselves. There does seem to be a correlation between bad/questionable raids and SWATties who have no understanding of CQB TTPs. These LEOs are not expecting much in the way of danger or do not know how to properly execute. These departments' LEOs are going to get ate up by trained, motivated, and smart adversaries. If ever such adversaries show up.
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Video of the shootout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXr_vqR3h9o
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW2BRH8SdMA
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A29,
I think you need to re-check your copy of the Constitution. Nowhere in there is the .gov (or the police) empowered to summarily execute anyone for any reason without first being tired in front of an impartial jury. That's the police's job, to bring people before the bar of justice. Not to act as judge, jury, and executioner. Allowing them (the police) to get away with it, even in this case, creates a very dangerous precedent.
Yes, even if he's shooting a .50 at you. You pull back, form a perimeter and wait him out. Yes, even if he had hostages. Even if he is the world's biggest dirtbag.
It is never acceptable for the police to burn a suspect to death. You wait them out. The PD here got killl-happy.
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Looks like the beat cops are issued Mini-14s in SoCal.
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A29,
I think you need to re-check your copy of the Constitution. Nowhere in there is the .gov (or the police) empowered to summarily execute anyone for any reason without first being tired in front of an impartial jury. That's the police's job, to bring people before the bar of justice. Not to act as judge, jury, and executioner. Allowing them (the police) to get away with it, even in this case, creates a very dangerous precedent.
Yes, even if he's shooting a .50 at you. You pull back, form a perimeter and wait him out. Yes, even if he had hostages. Even if he is the world's biggest dirtbag.
It is never acceptable for the police to burn a suspect to death. You wait them out. The PD here got killl-happy.
This and....everything else of a similar viewpoint.
You wait him out at an appropriate distance. You negotiate his surrender. If you want to get frisky, you send in a SWAT team. These are police officers, their job is to apprehend the suspected criminal and conduct an investigation. Lethal force is a matter of last resort and self defense. Military units offensively kill people holed up in buildings, not the police.
Today is a cabin in the woods. Tomorrow it's a firebombed block in Philide...oh, wait.
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This and....everything else of a similar viewpoint.
You wait him out at an appropriate distance. You negotiate his surrender. If you want to get frisky, you send in a SWAT team. These are police officers, their job is to apprehend the suspected criminal and conduct an investigation. Lethal force is a matter of last resort and self defense. Military units offensively kill people holed up in buildings, not the police.
Today is a cabin in the woods. Tomorrow it's a firebombed block in Philide...oh, wait.
Exactly. And if they're so worried about their safety, they probably should have chosen a diffrent line of work. It's one thing to try to minimize risk to officer safety. It's a whole 'nother thing to use it as an excuse to not do their jobs.
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sounds like a great way to lose a fight. guy called the tune set the rules asymmetrical warfare etc. only a retard would fight that anything other than full bore. great way to get folks killed
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sounds like a great way to lose a fight. guy called the tune set the rules asymmetrical warfare etc. only a retard would fight that anything other than full bore. great way to get folks killed
They want to go full bore killing the other guy, let them volunteer 4x and do a hitch in the Rangers. Police forces are not military forces and have a diferent mission. Not a single one of them was prevented from quitting if they felt they were not up to the mission the day dorner started his killing.
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They want to go full bore killing the other guy, let them volunteer 4x and do a hitch in the Rangers. Police forces are not military forces and have a diferent mission. Not a single one of them was prevented from quitting if they felt they were not up to the mission the day dorner started his killing.
lets see you have a guy with a 50 pinned down in daylight. your plan for success is to pull back? in that terrain? throw a perimeter of cops from different jurisdictions out there to contain him? how far back does that perimeter have to be? and what are the chances of him not slipping through it? or of friendly fire accidents? wanna call that one a mulligan? he set the rules and he died by em
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lets see you have a guy with a 50 pinned down in daylight. your plan for success is to pull back? in that terrain? throw a perimeter of cops from different jurisdictions out there to contain him? how far back does that perimeter have to be? and what are the chances of him not slipping through it? or of friendly fire accidents? wanna call that one a mulligan? he set the rules and he died by em
Because mere possession of a fifty makes you a supreme sniper who can make thousand yard headshots on moving targets, right?
The typical fifty is large and unwieldy, an not very useful for average shooter.
They pinned him down and a fire resulted.
Why is this suddenly a point of contention? Do you just like starting arguments?
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lets see, he broke his truck, and hijacked another. how much time did he have to tranfer guns and ammo? then he is running from the police into the cabin? while carrying a .50 and how many rounds of ammo? (hundreds of rounds were exchanged?)
unfortunatly i'm not sure what part is made up by the media, and what part is being fed to them.
the truly amazing part about this whole manhunt was that they could't find even one disparaging photo of the guy. every single one has him with this huge grin like someone just told the best joke ever.
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Well, I'm still waiting on the million doller question.
Is the dude dead yet?
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Well, I'm still waiting on the million doller question.
Is the dude dead yet?
They may be waiting on a DNA test
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.
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Because mere possession of a fifty makes you a supreme sniper who can make thousand yard headshots on moving targets, right?
The typical fifty is large and unwieldy, an not very useful for average shooter.
They pinned him down and a fire resulted.
Why is this suddenly a point of contention? Do you just like starting arguments?
moving targets? it does make folks nervous knowing that vest isn't gonna do much.
you didn't see the video? lots of firing likely like the sla shoot out. rounds passing through house make cops on other side think they were fired on by the folks in
side
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So, what CSD is saying, is that if you own a 50, you deserve to be burned out of your house
;-)
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Some of those cops were using full autos.
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moving targets? it does make folks nervous knowing that vest isn't gonna do much.
you didn't see the video? lots of firing likely like the sla shoot out. rounds passing through house make cops on other side think they were fired on by the folks in
side
If he's so *expletive deleted* dangerous how the hell did they lob gas in there and set the place on fire? That's a hell of a lot closer than a reasonable perimeter.
If you feel so strongly that a perimeter wont work on the active shooter, get the SWAT sharpshooter out and have him put one in his head if he pops up for another shot. Fine, clean, over and done with, no likelihood of it getting out of control or harming hostages. But police have no *expletive deleted* business setting buildings on fire just because there is a guy in there to apprehend.
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If he's so *expletive deleted* dangerous how the hell did they lob gas in there and set the place on fire? That's a hell of a lot closer than a reasonable perimeter.
If you feel so strongly that a perimeter wont work on the active shooter, get the SWAT sharpshooter out and have him put one in his head if he pops up for another shot. Fine, clean, over and done with, no likelihood of it getting out of control or harming hostages. But police have no *expletive deleted* business setting buildings on fire just because there is a guy in there to apprehend.
/thread.
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I doubt he had a .50 cal
More purposeful disinformation to exploit the situation.
This is why this country is doomed. Even here we cannot get everyone to agree that cops using .mil war tactics on civilians is wrong.
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Let's see, you've had to ditch your truck and leave some of your weaponry.
So, naturally, you grab the heaviest rifle known to Man and "hundreds" of rounds of .50 BMG, and you hoof it into the woods.
Because . . . Hollywood!
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So, naturally, you grab the heaviest rifle known to Man and "hundreds" of rounds of .50 BMG, and you hoof it into the woods.
What good would hundreds of rounds of .50 ammo be if you're hauling a 20mm Kawamura 97?
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All they had to do was wait. Time was on their side. Cut the utilities, keep the TV people away. Everyone has to sleep sometime. No need to for gas or fire or anything else. Don't even have to talk to him (but that helps to keep him awake). Just had to give it time.
You say this, but its not guaranteed. We had a somewhat similar incident over here in 2003 that still ended up with the suspect shooting himself and the place burning down.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2643679.stm
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What good would hundreds of rounds of .50 ammo be if you're hauling a 20mm Kawamura 97?
The point.
It has been missed.
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You say this, but its not guaranteed. We had a somewhat similar incident over here in 2003 that still ended up with the suspect shooting himself and the place burning down.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2643679.stm
Big difference b/t the perp setting the fire & the police setting it....
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Big difference b/t the perp setting the fire & the police setting it....
there is, but what I was pointing out that the "wait him out" strategy isnt guaranteed to result in success. Plus of course it was probably a lot easier to do it in Graham Road, Hackney than it would be in Big Bear, or whatever crazily named hamlet this happened in.
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Good Lord...what a cluster. At least he's (probably) dead though. Heard on the news that internet chatter includes some people "vowing to continue the fight". Strange times.
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Well, I'm still waiting on the million dollar question.
Is the dude dead yet?
Very nicely worded! :)
Do you think the woman who turned him in will collect any of the reward money? Or not, since they didn't exactly capture the guy they just killed him.
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That million dollars should go to the two newspaper ladies.
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That million dollars should go to the two newspaper ladies.
Or the people who's cabin got burned down.
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I doubt he had a .50 cal
More purposeful disinformation to exploit the situation.
This is why this country is doomed. Even here we cannot get everyone to agree that cops using .mil war tactics on civilians is wrong.
Yeah, I can't fathom he carried it on foot, plus a decent supply of ammo, plus some smaller weapons. I'm not clear on how far the home invasion and hostage situation was from his burned out car though.
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the gentleman who's vehicle was hijacked reported that he had a "gun", and a "ballistic" (tactical?) vest when he took his truck. he did say the vest had pockets which could have contained "ammunition or a smoke bomb". no mention of additional boxes of ammo and such. i would give allowance that he could have been holding a rifle, and had a holstered pistol.
also, now law enforcement is denying torching the place intentionally. (better make copies of all the youtube soundtracks, 'cause when they dissappear their innocense will all sound so very reasonable) i will say a ruptured propane tank, and an incindiary tear gas canister would be a bad combo, but just the way the police where talking lead me to think they were starting upon a preagreed course of action that wasn't supposed to be common knowledge.
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Yeah, I can't fathom he carried it on foot, plus a decent supply of ammo, plus some smaller weapons. I'm not clear on how far the home invasion and hostage situation was from his burned out car though.
well, you got about 30 pounds in the rifle alone...
I doubt he went all that far with just that.
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Hypothetically speaking [tinfoil]... What would happen if you picked an incendiary tear-gas (or CS gas, whatever) cannister with a set of fireplace tongs and dropped it into a sink (or tub or bucket) full of water? Does it continue to spew gas and keep being all incendiary and all? I have this friend that wants to know. Really, I do.
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Hypothetically speaking [tinfoil]... What would happen if you picked an incendiary tear-gas (or CS gas, whatever) cannister with a set of fireplace tongs and dropped it into a sink (or tub or bucket) full of water? Does it continue to spew gas and keep being all incendiary and all? I have this friend that wants to know. Really, I do.
I'm told it greatly reduces the output of the gas cartridge.
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sounds like a great way to lose a fight. guy called the tune set the rules asymmetrical warfare etc. only a retard would fight that anything other than full bore. great way to get folks killed
Why did I expect this from C&SD "I never heard of a police shooting that wasn't 100% justified, unless it was Sheriff Joe in Maricopa County, AZ." ?
You just don't get it do you? The police are not allowed to shoot anyone "just because" or for "officer safety". Like what BSL stated. The job comes with risks, but the job is to bring those suspected of crime before the bar of justice. Not to summarily execute anyone who pissed them off.
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I think I've processed what has me really incensed over this situation.
Dorner was probably a psycho. He was probably a mediocre unremarkable failure in everything he attempted in life. He was probably the author of that facebook manifesto. He was probably wrong about all his LAPD internal affairs reports. LAPD was probably right in firing him. Probably.
But without a court hearing, with Dorner present and a full fact-finding effort, we'll never know.
We pay police officers to facilitate the court experience. To bring to justice and exposition those that don't want to come to it.
Americans don't trust their civic institutions anymore. Cops, Feds, tax agents, politicians, bureaucrats. None of 'em. The final institution for which we have any vestiges of respect are the courts.
We pay the police mercenaries to bring our suspects to the courts, so that the PUBLIC gets to hear the evidence and the PUBLIC gets to decide upon the just nature of the verdict. That's why we have jury trials, why we have transcripts of court proceedings, and so on.
LAPD and SBSD didn't cheat Dorner out of his day in court. Dorner didn't want it.
But Dorner was the suspect in a series of murders. Murders against individual members of our society.
And we, as that society, have rules that the suspect is to be brought to a court for hearing and sentencing.
LAPD/SBSD decided, despite the enormous resources we give them to do this job, that this time it wasn't going to happen. They usurped our court room. The very place where we get the answers we need to maintain our faith in our institutions like LAPD and SBSD.
The story is now one-sided, forevermore.
We pay for SWAT teams to use special weapons and tactics. Not redneck arson.
We pay for SWAT teams to have overtime to resolve a standoff. Not get frustrated and unprofessional and murder a suspect.
We pay for SWAT teams to have crisis negotiators. Not for them to have cushy office desks, but to be available in the field to talk down unstable minds.
We pay for police to bring criminals to society's justice. The justice that We The People cede our own authority and empower them with our proxy to enforce. Not to declare their own vendetta and carry it out with no oversight on our part.
This is personal, bloody, vendetta driven, guilty, culpable, retributive, vicious, sneaky, corrupt murder.
Not protecting and serving.
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Why did I expect this from C&SD "I never heard of a police shooting that wasn't 100% justified, unless it was Sheriff Joe in Maricopa County, AZ." ?
You just don't get it do you? The police are not allowed to shoot anyone "just because" or for "officer safety". Like what BSL stated. The job comes with risks, but the job is to bring those suspected of crime before the bar of justice. Not to summarily execute anyone who pissed them off.
Yep, all of that.
But, let us not forget the legitimate use of force by LEOs is the same as for the citizenry: self-defense and the protection of other innocent life. While we despise those LEOs who in fear and rage shot at & rammed the wrong folks, let us give them the benefit of the doubt when they were under fire from Dorner.
So, use of arms by LEOs, SWAT and regular uniformed, is legitimate under the same circumstances it is legitimate for any random citizen. I would contrast that with the use of pyrotechnics for what looks like a deliberate attempt to set fire to the cabin Dorner occupied. Fire is an offensive and indiscriminate weapon not appropriate for use by LEOs. There is a reason arson has some pretty stiff penalties.
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Now to be fair.
I'm sure there are some situations (which I do not expect to occur in the CONUS any time soon) where it is legitimate for the police to use such military tactics.
But again, today was not that day.
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So, use of arms by LEOs, SWAT and regular uniformed, is legitimate under the same circumstances it is legitimate for any random citizen. I would contrast that with the use of pyrotechnics for what looks like a deliberate attempt to set fire to the cabin Dorner occupied. Fire is an offensive and indiscriminate weapon not appropriate for use by LEOs. There is a reason arson has some pretty stiff penalties.
What is bothering me right now is the refusal by the police administration that the fire was a deliberate act. The radio traffic that has come to light has all been very, very clear that the boots on the ground intended to light that place up like a pyrotechnic Christmas tree.
LAPD/SBSD decided, despite the enormous resources we give them to do this job, that this time it wasn't going to happen. They usurped our court room. The very place where we get the answers we need to maintain our faith in our institutions like LAPD and SBSD.
The guy was actively seeking out and engaging in gunbattles with police. As you pointed out, he was very intent on not being taken alive. He wanted to kill cops and then be killed, and he got his wish (although, he never managed to kill anyone from LAPD). If at any time the police were exchanging gunfire with him and killed him, I wouldn't care one little bit. He was begging for that bullet, and I wouldn't deny him that. The fact that the cops greased him doesn't bother me, and it would have taken a monumental effort to bring him in without killing him - one that would not have been exercised for anyone short of some extremely powerful political figure.
Seriously, given his mindset if they had spent the time, money and lives to doggedly try to bring him in alive I'd probably be critical of their decision to do so. He wasn't worth that.
The police crossed the line in two places:
1. Shooting at random trucks.
2. Intentionally burning the cabin down.
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This is personal, bloody, vendetta driven, guilty, culpable, retributive, vicious, sneaky, corrupt murder.
That pretty much describes both Dorner and the LAPD =(
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more fuel for the conspiracy fire: part of the $1m reward for dorner was privately funded. also the the word "conviction" was a part of the stipulation, so now that he is dead they don't need to pay.
http://news.yahoo.com/legal-loophole-could-hold-1m-dorner-reward-230004148--abc-news-topstories.html
if not the city/state, who would fund a reward and why?
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6 private folks plus the la dodgers amongst others there was an earlier story
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What is bothering me right now is the refusal by the police administration that the fire was a deliberate act. The radio traffic that has come to light has all been very, very clear that the boots on the ground intended to light that place up like a pyrotechnic Christmas tree.
The guy was actively seeking out and engaging in gunbattles with police. As you pointed out, he was very intent on not being taken alive. He wanted to kill cops and then be killed, and he got his wish (although, he never managed to kill anyone from LAPD). If at any time the police were exchanging gunfire with him and killed him, I wouldn't care one little bit. He was begging for that bullet, and I wouldn't deny him that. The fact that the cops greased him doesn't bother me, and it would have taken a monumental effort to bring him in without killing him - one that would not have been exercised for anyone short of some extremely powerful political figure.
Seriously, given his mindset if they had spent the time, money and lives to doggedly try to bring him in alive I'd probably be critical of their decision to do so. He wasn't worth that.
The police crossed the line in two places:
1. Shooting at random trucks.
2. Intentionally burning the cabin down.
Well put!
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damned with faint praise krauthammer on drones he does side step killing the 16 year old
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-in-defense-of-obamas-drone-war/2013/02/14/3a69d76c-76e5-11e2-aa12-e6cf1d31106b_story.html
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If he's so *expletive deleted* dangerous how the hell did they lob gas in there and set the place on fire? That's a hell of a lot closer than a reasonable perimeter.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-dorner-20130216,0,3243239.story
"Herbert said that a tractor was deployed to tear down walls of the cabin to expose Dorner's whereabouts inside,"
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/dorner-manhunt-fire-at-cabin-justified-some-experts-say.html
"Wanting to end the standoff before nightfall, members of the sheriff's SWAT unit carried out a plan they had devised for a final assault on the cabin, according to law enforcement sources. An officer drove a demolition vehicle up to the building and methodically tore down most of its walls, the sources said."
It's a magic tractor, based on the Halo Warthog. It simply can't be harmed, even by the evil .50BMG. It allows officers to just cruise in to a situation, methodically demolish a building, and then do nothing else except deploy incendiaries.
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Well, seems like 'pyrotechnic' gas devices should be prohibited from being deployed inside structures. They knew damn well that a fire was going to start. How many of them did they throw in anyway?
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Well, seems like 'pyrotechnic' gas devices should be prohibited from being deployed inside structures. They knew damn well that a fire was going to start. How many of them did they throw in anyway?
Radio traffic said they deployed "seven burners."