Trump is rallying again...

[Bogie]

I think things are so far gone that it won't get fixed. Lots of people believe. You could show them a video chain showing ballots being printed in China, filled in with slave labor, and then inserted into the system, and they would say that Trump was doing it.

[cordex]

Giving legitimacy to fraud by participation is a huge downside.

Do you imagine that by not voting you somehow reduce the legitimacy of fraud?  Considering that in US elections between half and two thirds of the eligible voters actually decide the election, your act of abstention is not going to be a blip. Unless you are able to make a public spectacle of your act of not voting it will be as unnoticed and unimportant as any of the other tens of millions of people who didn’t care enough to make it to the polls (or mailbox, for that matter). What you perceive as a high minded act of conscience is utterly lost in a sea of disinterested fellow travelers.

If you simply don’t care to vote, or don’t want to vote for republicans because you believe they are as or more corrupt, that is fine - but it is silly to pretend that by refusing to participate you are in any way effecting change.

Neglecting to vote doesn’t expose fraud, although it may reduce it.  If fraud is used by your political opponents then by staying home you are reducing the fraud that must be employed to overcome your vote, and thereby incrementally reduces the chance that such fraud will be detected.

[dogmush]

Yeah, we're going to bring down the two-party system by not voting. 

How crazy that I would strongly prefer the more American-friendly of the two laughable whatevers. How silly of me. Boy I must be one of those starry-eyed party loyalists that can't stand your super-genius-level realism. How dare you crush my dreams? I shall pray to Saint Trump for the salvation of your soul.

 The party that has the most influential press organs (and other, uh, organs) in its pocket is going to be the less law-abiding. Makes sense, right?

I never said not to vote, I just said the parties both commit votor fraud, and you said that was a stupid argument to have.  I think we could bring the current two parties down by enough folks abandoning them for third parties that either the third part takes over or the existing parties are forced into real change for survival.  Both those plans require voting.

IMO, based on what they actually do when in power, the Republicans are not more America friendly, they differ in their power grabbing direction, and drape themselves in a church they clearly don't believe and the flag, but they don't actually accomplish anything that is friendly for liberty.

[RocketMan]

If you won't do something that's easy and has no downside, you've obviously given up.

You're making no sense with this argument.

[Ron]

My vote for the purportedly more right candidate is at very best just a nudge in the correct direction. Let's call it virtue signaling 

Yes, it is discouraging and humiliating having to vote for imperfect candidates who will most likely stab me in the back.

I don't kid myself that there is a political solution. I've disabused myself of that notion.

Voting harder, demonstrating the futility of voting, over and over again, is a potential way of waking more normies up to that reality.

"Red pilling" more of the public about our governing officials, the system itself, showing that even the R's, our side, are the enemy of Americans is a potential feature of our kabuki theater democracy.

The harder we vote, the more they ignore it, the more they obviously steal, the less credibility the politicians and the system will have in the publics eyes.

Too many people conflate our government with the nation. Right now we are being ruled by globalists and foreigners.

We are already a conquered nation.

I don't condemn those who opt out but anything I can do to reduce the credibility of the globalists takeover seems worthwhile.

[Perd Hapley]

You're making no sense with this argument.

So what is the downside of voting?

[Perd Hapley]

Giving legitimacy to fraud by participation is a huge downside.

Thank you, Mr. Part of the Problem.

[ConstitutionCowboy]

I never said not to vote, I just said the parties both commit votor fraud, and you said that was a stupid argument to have.  I think we could bring the current two parties down by enough folks abandoning them for third parties that either the third part takes over or the existing parties are forced into real change for survival.  Both those plans require voting.

IMO, based on what they actually do when in power, the Republicans are not more America friendly, they differ in their power grabbing direction, and drape themselves in a church they clearly don't believe and the flag, but they don't actually accomplish anything that is friendly for liberty.

Like any other job position, one must apply for the spot. One must be of a mind where having such a position will benefit themselves.
When they do or say whatever is necessary to get that position, how righteous can they be regarding abiding the Constitution? Ever hear anyone campaign on an abide-the-Constitution platform? Me neither. Most will talk a good game to whomever they feel is their best choice for a constituency and it's as far as they go. There is a way to cut the crap in half, though: Repeal the 17th Amendment.

With a Senate that isn't a second house of representatives in practice, at least one house will be in place to protect state sovereignty which will in turn be more apt to protect the rights of the people, be less susceptible to lobbying, no promises to keep to obtain/retain campaign contributions, and a restoration of competition between the states. As it stands with so much usurped power and set standards with all-encompassing regulations concentrated on the federal level, no individual state can set its own standards to attract business and people. A true senate will set the several states free from the bureaucratic alphabet agencies simply by the fact that the senators will be bound by the will of the separate state's legislatures that appoint them.

Woody

[Bogie]

In the space of four years, we saw conservatives go from being "those people with jobs" to "the evil trumperkluckernazis who MUST be hunted down and destroyed."
 
That's the problem. ANYTHING is considered to be fair game.

[kgbsquirrel]

In the space of four years, we saw conservatives go from being "those people with jobs" to "the evil trumperkluckernazis who MUST be hunted down and destroyed."
 
That's the problem. ANYTHING is considered to be fair game.

Meanwhile we are told to just keep playing the rigged game and don't do anything of actual merit or value to oppose tyranny and fraud.

[cordex]

Meanwhile we are told to just keep playing the rigged game and don't do anything of actual merit or value to oppose tyranny and fraud.

What do you consider to be of merit to oppose tyranny and fraud?  So far all I have seen proposed is staying home on Election Day.

[Ron]

There is a philosophy out there called "accelerationist". By either not voting or better yet voting for the worst candidates we can accelerate the collapse of the current system. With the current demographic make up of the country I'm not sure working for system collapse is the wisest course. I think it would be violent, ugly and painful. Patriots won't be taking the reins and saving us in that scenario.

There is a branch of the hidden rulers that want to keep the historic America grift going on a little longer. They're probably a branch of the original founding stock. That's the grift that would mostly leave us alone, maintain the America façade and only lightly fleece us. Trump has been their avatar.

Our group of hidden rulers who actually are now in control want a system reset. They appear to like the direction we've been going, instituting the national panopticon and demographically eliminating the power of the founding stock. It is a much heavier handed totalitarian rule than team Trump. Immigration and "democracy" have been their weapons of choice.

With massive numbers of lower IQ immigrants and higher IQ immigrants with no cultural understanding of the rule of law vs rule of men, of common law, natural rights or the freedom of low church Christianity it will be much easier for them to run their fascist state. Between immigration and massive vote fraud all along they control pretty much the whole kit and caboodle of US institutions.

So yes, voting is participating in kabuki theater democracy. I vote because I'm sure what I support irritates the foreign and globalist rulers.

This is my current working theory subject to modification 

[Bogie]

Past few elections, I have noticed more and more members of the Student Union Debate Society urging people to not vote, to vote only for perfection, etc., etc...
 
And you don't really see them before or after the election period.

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Just get out there and vote. Each and every vote you cast has to be countered by a vote for whatever competition is out there. Your vote for your "candidate" makes it that much more difficult for whomever you don't vote for, even if it is a runaway election for whomever you don't like, an election fraught with fraud, or simply to remove or reduce any claim of a mandate.

Woody

[DittoHead]

Just get out there and vote.

That's a good start but I would also encourage people to go a step farther and get involved in administering the elections and counting the votes. Local clerks are almost always looking for help during elections and then you can see with your own eyes what's happening and how things work. You can't stop fraud everywhere but you can do your part in your municipality. If more people did that instead of whining about it on the internet we'd be in better shape.

[Perd Hapley]

Meanwhile we are told to just keep playing the rigged game and don't do anything of actual merit or value to oppose tyranny and fraud.

What are the "merit or value" things you're told not to do? Who says so?

[Bogie]

My father, who was a hard-core Libertarian, told me that he moved to damage control after 9/11, because he figured that Bad Things were about to be heavily promoted. "Don't vote with your heart. Vote for the least worst."

[MechAg94]

Just get out there and vote. Each and every vote you cast has to be countered by a vote for whatever competition is out there. Your vote for your "candidate" makes it that much more difficult for whomever you don't vote for, even if it is a runaway election for whomever you don't like, an election fraught with fraud, or simply to remove or reduce any claim of a mandate.

Woody

The "perfection" thing always triggers me a bit.  We have not and will never have perfection.  IMO, using that language sets an impossible standard and they will end up rejecting any chance to move things in their direction. 

[dogmush]

At this point I'd probably settle for "not a lying sociopathic criminal", but I'm not sure we have that either.

[WLJ]

At this point I'd probably settle for "not a lying sociopathic criminal", but I'm not sure we have that either.

Politics runs on reverse Darwinism where the worse rises to the top.

[230RN]

If there is absolutely no way for your supported candidate to win an election, then what is the point of voting?  And please don't raise that hoary canard about a single vote making a difference.

What good does one Army Ant do?

Or one Pirhana?

Or one Covid19 virus?

If everyone votes, "hopelessness" or not, the more likely "they" will have to push "their" vote-generating machine into higher levels to compensate, which in turn enhances the possibility of proving the voter fraud.

The more robberies a crook pulls, the more likely he will make a mistake.

I know, "yeah, but," "yeah, but," "yeah, but."

But I see every single vote on the conservative side, regardless of hopelessness, as boosting the likelihood of them tripping over their own feet.

And I wish to heck Conservatives would lay off the religious stuff.  As fervent as you and I are about our beliefs, I am sure that turns off a lot of sinners/voters.

"Yeah, friggin' but..."

And every time I bring that up, it "triggers" passionate defenses of religion itself, when 90% of the leftist agenda has nothing to do with religion, but with them raising taxes or instituting rent controls or mandating insurance for gun owners, or elevating every little dippy law into a felony...

Did you cross the street against the traffic light?  FELONY! 

No guns for you for the rest of your life.

"Why, we ought to make crossing the street a felony," said Councilwoman Miranda Veracruz de la Jolla Cardinál, adding "It's for the children."

Terry, 230RN

[MechAg94]

I agree on voting.  Even if you are very selective about who you vote for, I think you should go ahead and do that. 

As for "religious stuff", what exactly do you mean?  I see few politicians making that a big part of their platform.  The ones who make a bigger deal of it are usually the worst because they can't talk about economics or constitutional rights.

[Ron]

- stop talking about religion stuff-

Terry, 230RN

Every decision in life is influenced by ones foundational first principles, unprovable assumptions, epistemology and cosmology. Only a small number of people have actually tried to work that stuff out purposefully and consciously. Just because most people acquired their "beliefs" by cultural osmosis doesn't mean we shouldn't challenge those beliefs. The edifice is collapsing due to foundation problems.

The enemy loves to argue with those who are right when the those who are willing to right cede the First principles, epistemology etc. before the battle even begins.  How about we stop trying to win on the leftist/globalist chosen field of battle?

Ceding away the foundational basis of the nations of the western world in defense of the western world is self defeating.

The American right is just a subset of the progressive/leftist/democrat system. There is little difference between them due to their sharing all their foundational beliefs.

The American right wants to slow down or pause, the American left wants to change. They both are going the same direction. That includes libertarians.

The progressive/communist/fascist/evil agenda is just the natural conclusion of their foundational beliefs. The right by and large shares those foundational beliefs but refuses to stare into that abyss.

[230RN]

MechAg94:

"As for 'religious stuff,' what exactly do you mean?  I see few politicians making that a big part of their platform.  The ones who make a bigger deal of it are usually the worst because they can't talk about economics or constitutional rights."

Think "clinging to their guns and their Bibles."

E.g.

Don't give them that kind of opening to fling insults like that.  Their useful idiots eat that kind of stuff up and it soaks into the consciousness of the general public. 

Naturally, most politicians don't generally make that part of their platform.

Terry

[cordex]

Think "clinging to their guns and their Bibles."

E.g.

Don't give them that kind of opening to fling insults like that.  Their useful idiots eat that kind of stuff up and it soaks into the consciousness of the general public. 

That "insult" is mocking people who care about gun ownership and are religiously observant.  If that mockery hurts the cause (or your feelings), as far as I can see the only way to stop it from being relevant is to stop caring about guns and stop being religiously observant.  But if mocking something makes you abandon it so readily, they'll mock everything about you that they disagree with until you are just like them.  Then they will hate you for not being like them sooner.

Also, why do you only get the ickies from the "Bible" side of that comment?  Shouldn't we also stop caring about guns too so they can't use that against us?