Arab woman opens a can of verbal whoopass...

[De Selby]

Fatwa's do NOT have to be some lawyeristic write up. They are not always analogous to American judicial opinions. They can be a decree from someone in a position of authority regarding the Koran. Go check up on who the guy was who issued the fatwa.

A fatwa can be anything from a judgement of a local imman/priest equivalent to a muslim seeking advice to a call for genocide.

Due to the distributed nature of Islam, a fatwah only has as much effect as the issuer can summon.  An Imman with the right fanatics following him can write fatwa death sentences.  The average Imman can do the local equivalent of marriage counseling.

Again, an Imam is not the equivalent of a priest. I have no idea how this myth got started, but the Imam has no personal authority or authoritative station whatsoever.  He is the main reciter during prayer time.  That is it.  If he gives opinions, they are only as good as the number who agree.  But he has no special role of giving opinions.

Iman means "faith", but I got what you meant.  But no, that is not quite right.

[Tecumseh]

Why do you put members' names in bold? 

Old habit from when I quote others on forums.  Its also easier for them to notice if I ask them a question.

[K Frame]

"Odd, because Hamas had not carried out a single suicide bombing until 1994.  There were several in Lebanon before that, but by some estimates 70 percent of the suicide bombers were Christian, and by all estimates most of them were Syrian-backed nationalists.  Including the first suicide bomber in Lebanon, Lola Aboud."

What, Hamas is the only radical Islamic group out there?

Hell, it wasn't even, by any stretch of the imagination, the first.

[De Selby]

"Odd, because Hamas had not carried out a single suicide bombing until 1994.  There were several in Lebanon before that, but by some estimates 70 percent of the suicide bombers were Christian, and by all estimates most of them were Syrian-backed nationalists.  Including the first suicide bomber in Lebanon, Lola Aboud."

What, Hamas is the only radical Islamic group out there?

Hell, it wasn't even, by any stretch of the imagination, the first.

True-but it was one of the first to use the infamous suicide vest, if not the first.  And it was also responsible for a large chunk of all suicide bombings before Iraq and Afghanistan.  It was founded in 1988 and started suicide bombing in 1994. 

Do you have any examples of Islamic suicide terrorism before the 80's?  I'm genuinely interested to see them in order to learn about how these movements got started in the suicide terror business.

[Manedwolf]

Weasel weasel weasel.

"Hamas were the first Islamic suicide bombers in 1994! It was Christians before!" (total BS)

"No they weren't." (which is a fact)

"Um...they were the first to use the vests!"


 

[SomeKid]

Maned, if you are having fun, by all means keep going. I however realized there is no reasoning with this guy. When he considers the dictionary not a good source of information because he as a Muslim rejects it because the definitions are not what he wants it is rather obvious he will see only what he wants to see.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

[Tecumseh]

Weasel weasel weasel.

"Hamas were the first Islamic suicide bombers in 1994! It was Christians before!" (total BS)

"No they weren't." (which is a fact)

"Um...they were the first to use the vests!"


 

  What about the Japanese Zero planes?  Was that not a suicide bomber? 

[Typhoon]

Im not sure its appropriate to equate desperation suicide tactics in a declared war (Kamikazes) with todays suicide bombers.

Potentially self destructive tactics in declared wars are as old as ramming ships (even though there were ships built specifically to be ramming ships, the potential for both ships to suffer serious damage was always there).

I guess you could always argue that terrorists have declared war, but its still not the classical definition.  Classical warfare did/does not specifically target non-combatants.

[Perd Hapley]

The intentional bombing of civilians, folks.  Big difference. 

[Tecumseh]

Im not sure its appropriate to equate desperation suicide tactics in a declared war (Kamikazes) with todays suicide bombers.

Potentially self destructive tactics in declared wars are as old as ramming ships (even though there were ships built specifically to be ramming ships, the potential for both ships to suffer serious damage was always there).

I guess you could always argue that terrorists have declared war, but its still not the classical definition.  Classical warfare did/does not specifically target non-combatants.

  They declared war along time ago.  We never properly declared war. 

[Tecumseh]

The intentional bombing of civilians, folks.  Big difference. 

  Well I would argue the bombing of Baghdad was pretty intense.  And we knew there would be many civilian casualties.  There was no suicide on the part of the pilots, but it is hard to say that it was "collateral damage" when we knew the destructive power of the bombs. 

[Typhoon]

Of course there is collateral damage in warfare.  Thats why war is something to avoid if we can reasonably do so.  But the United States is not sending laser guided bombs into restaurants and supermarkets with the specific intent to kill civilians.

[Perd Hapley]

The intentional bombing of civilians, folks.  Big difference. 

  Well I would argue the bombing of Baghdad was pretty intense.  And we knew there would be many civilian casualties.  There was no suicide on the part of the pilots, but it is hard to say that it was "collateral damage" when we knew the destructive power of the bombs. 

(rude comment was here, please don't push it - OV)

good call - fistful. 

[De Selby]

Weasel weasel weasel.

"Hamas were the first Islamic suicide bombers in 1994! It was Christians before!" (total BS)

"No they weren't." (which is a fact)

"Um...they were the first to use the vests!"


 

Uh, what is weaseling about it? If you have some information that proves me wrong, I'm happy to see it, but every source I can find lists 1994 as the first suicide bombing by Hamas.

Every source I can find also lists Lola Aboud, Christian, working for Syrian socialists, as the first suicide bomber in Lebanon. 

The only source I'm aware of that compiled a database of suicide bombings, Robert Pape's outfit at U Chicago, says most suicide bombers throughout the entire Lebanon conflict were secular and Christian.

So what exactly is it that you claim I'm avoiding?

[De Selby]

Maned, if you are having fun, by all means keep going. I however realized there is no reasoning with this guy. When he considers the dictionary not a good source of information because he as a Muslim rejects it because the definitions are not what he wants it is rather obvious he will see only what he wants to see.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

No need to take my word for it or to rely on "my opinion as a Muslim"-try to see if you can find any Muslim who agrees with your claims about Islam.  Alot some time to that project, because you will be looking long and hard to find one.

[Manedwolf]

Maned, if you are having fun, by all means keep going. I however realized there is no reasoning with this guy. When he considers the dictionary not a good source of information because he as a Muslim rejects it because the definitions are not what he wants it is rather obvious he will see only what he wants to see.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

No need to take my word for it or to rely on "my opinion as a Muslim"-try to see if you can find any Muslim who agrees with your claims about Islam.  Alot some time to that project, because you will be looking long and hard to find one.

It's very difficult. If they did, publically, the radicals would try to kill them, or declare that they ought to be killed.

Ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali what that's like. Because she's one of what you're asking about.

[doc2rn]

Tecumseh
Christian Identity =/= Christians
Timothy McVeigh =/= Christians
KKK=/= Chrstianst
Westboro Baptist Church =/= Christians
 

I thought McVeigh and KKK belonged to the Arian Church. Westboro that totally goes against the preachings of Jesus Christ. So I can say while they may have their own beliefs, philosophy, and religion, I certainly would not call a message of hate Christian. Actions speak louder than words.
Fatwa=Muslim
Church Burning=Muslim
Suicide Bombing Innocent People=Muslim

[Tecumseh]

Tecumseh
Christian Identity =/= Christians
Timothy McVeigh =/= Christians
KKK=/= Chrstianst
Westboro Baptist Church =/= Christians
 

I thought McVeigh and KKK belonged to the Arian Church. Westboro that totally goes against the preachings of Jesus Christ. So I can say while they may have their own beliefs, philosophy, and religion, I certainly would not call a message of hate Christian. Actions speak louder than words.
Fatwa=Muslim
Church Burning=Muslim
Suicide Bombing Innocent People=Muslim

  They are Christians.  McVeigh used the Christian churches beliefs to guide him in his bombings.  The Westboro baptist church is a Christian church.  They derive their justification from the Holy Bible.  They cite scripture and verse in some of their hateful speeches.  The man is a Christian minister. Why is that?  I am sorry but they are a sect of the Christian religion just like Baptists, Episcopalians, Protestants, Lutherans, and numerous other denominations. 

Just as Christians have sects, so does Islam.  Wahabism for example is a militant sect that Osama Bin Laden follows.  However there are other sects just like Christianity.  Here is some reading on it...

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/blfaq_islam_sunni.htm

Your little spiel about "Fatwa = Muslim, Church Burning = Muslim, Suicide Bombing Innocent People = Muslim" is like me saying "KKK Cross burning = Christianity, Shooting Abortionists = Christianity, Molesting Children = Christianity".  It simply is not true.  I would argue that some members of Islamic sects and faith are terrorists just as some members of the Catholic sect of Christianity are pedophiles.  The same goes for all examples. 

[Barbara]

Arian Church

Aryan.

Arian doesn't have any current church that I'm aware of.

[De Selby]

Maned, if you are having fun, by all means keep going. I however realized there is no reasoning with this guy. When he considers the dictionary not a good source of information because he as a Muslim rejects it because the definitions are not what he wants it is rather obvious he will see only what he wants to see.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

No need to take my word for it or to rely on "my opinion as a Muslim"-try to see if you can find any Muslim who agrees with your claims about Islam.  Alot some time to that project, because you will be looking long and hard to find one.

It's very difficult. If they did, publically, the radicals would try to kill them, or declare that they ought to be killed.

Ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali what that's like. Because she's one of what you're asking about.

Huh? You think the radicals believe that Imams can issue fatwas on the spot!?  Have you read any of the ideological work that drives these movements?

Radical Islamists are by far the most anti-authority of all the Muslim subsects.  They absolutely hated establishment scholars, state religious figures, and any claims that some interpretation of the Qu'ran other than their own should be considered authoritative or binding.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is not Muslim, so I don't see how her opinion on the role of the Imam would have much to do with our discussion.  I think you are perhaps confused as to what SomeKid was alleging.  He was alleging that Imams have some special authority in Islam;  I was pointing out to him that they do not, and that no such position as "priest" in Islam exists.  There is no such thing as ordination or sacrament or "divine authority" in Islam; there are only Muslims, all of whom have the right to argue and interpret the available legal texts.  Some find bigger audiences, some find smaller.  In that sense it is very similar to Rabbinical Judaism (from what I know of Judaism, anyway.)

[Perd Hapley]

  McVeigh used the Christian churches beliefs to guide him in his bombings. 

You keep saying that, but where do you get that idea? 

[Perd Hapley]

Arian Church

Aryan.

Arian doesn't have any current church that I'm aware of.

I've never heard of an Aryan Church.  I think he meant Christian Identity. 

[WeedWhacker]

Wow. So he was a terrorist who blew up something who happened to be a Christian, and, it seems, not motivated by that.

But if I tried to list all the terrorists who have blown stuff up in the name of Islam, I'd crash the server.

No need, we have someone else's server to crash: http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Terrorism_Timeline.Islam

[WeedWhacker]

But if I tried to list all the terrorists who have blown stuff up in the name of Islam, I'd crash the server.

I doubt you would-before the late 1980's, there weren't any such terrorists.

"November 6, 1970: In Israel, a bomb exploded in the central bus station in Tel Aviv. A explosion followed twenty minutes later. Two people were killed and thirty-four were wounded in the terrorist act attributed to al-Fatah.
On November 8th, Abu Iyad of Fatah issued a statement in Amman saying that the twin suicide bombings were "the start of more and bigger operations within our occupied homeland.""

Just the first one I found after 30 seconds.

[Bogie]

It must be really, really hard to hate so much.