Author Topic: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?  (Read 2998 times)

Grandpa Shooter

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Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« on: December 20, 2009, 11:04:28 AM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091220/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_classified_documents;_ylt=ArgwSCjn5BoUHz_bcxHiXbys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNybWpoOGtsBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkxMjIwL3VzX2NsYXNzaWZpZWRfZG9jdW1lbnRzBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDNwRwb3MDNARwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX2hlYWRsaW5lX2xpc3QEc2xrA2RvYWxsdGhvc2Vnbw--

I thought you folks would enjoy this one as the subject of on going debate of "Govt vs the people"



WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama plans to deal with a Dec. 31 deadline that automatically would declassify secrets in more than 400 million pages of Cold War-era documents by ordering government-wide changes that could sharply curb the number of new and old government records hidden from the public.

In an executive order the president is likely to sign before year's end, Obama will create a National Declassification Center to clear up the backlog of Cold War documents. But the order also will give everyone more time to process the 400 million pages rather than flinging them open at year's end without a second glance.

The order aimed at eliminating unnecessary secrecy also is expected to direct all agencies to revise their classification guides — the more than 2,000 separate and unique manuals used by federal agencies to determine what information should be classified and what no longer needs that protection. The manuals form the foundation of the government's classification system.

Two of every three such guides haven't been updated in the past five years, according to the 2008 annual report of the Information Security Oversight Office, which oversees the government's security classification.

The anticipated timing of Obama's order was disclosed by a government official familiar with the planning who requested anonymity in order to discuss the order before its release. A draft of the order leaked last summer.

The still-classified Cold War records would provide a wealth of data on U.S.-Soviet relations, including the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the fall of the Berlin Wall, diplomacy and espionage. A Soviet spy ring in the Navy led by John Walker headlined 1985, which became known as "The Year of the Spy."

It took 19 years and a lawsuit for the National Security Archive, a private group that obtains and analyzes once-secret government records, to get documents on the 1959 crisis when the United States and the Soviet Union faced off over control of West Berlin. For nearly two decades, the contested documents were shuttled back and forth among various offices in the Defense Department, then on to the State Department and an unnamed intelligence agency, each conducting a separate declassification review, before the government finally gave some of them up.

Obama's executive order will follow on the president's inauguration day initiatives on open government. On his first day in office, Obama instructed federal agencies to be more responsive to requests for records under the Freedom of Information Act and he overturned an order by President George W. Bush that would have enabled former presidents and vice presidents to block release of sensitive records of their time in the White House.

William J. Bosanko, director of the Information Security Oversight Office, says the classification policies in place under executive orders signed by Bush and President Bill Clinton have protected national security and enabled increased declassification.

But Obama's review is necessary to enhance security and increase declassification "to a level that our open society expects and deserves," Bosanko said.

Obama's executive order "is an experiment, but it just might work," said Steven Aftergood, director of the Project on Government Secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists. "By changing the rules about what gets classified, this could lead to a dramatic reduction in secrecy throughout the government." Aftergood obtained a leaked copy of an early draft of the executive order last summer.

The government spent more than $8.21 billion last year to create and safeguard classified information, and $43 million to declassify it, according to the oversight office, part of the National Archives and Records Administration. The figures don't include data from the principal intelligence agencies, which is classified.

"What we're seeking to do is come up with a system that refocuses the finite resources available," says Bosanko.

"Serial reviews" are among the requirements causing declassification delays that can take years to resolve. When a classified document contains secrets from multiple agencies, each agency must review its part, a process that can add years to the declassification process.

In 2000, Clinton gave agencies a three-year extension to complete a review of multiple-agency classified records. When it became clear that the deadline wouldn't be met, Bush in 2003 gave federal agencies a six-year extension.

Declassification spending was cut from an average of $224 million annually in the last four years of the Clinton administration to only $47 million a year during the last four years of the Bush administration.

Today, the problem is not much closer to being solved than it was in the 1990s. Under the terms of Bush's extension, sensitive information in hundreds of millions of pages of historical documents will declassified automatically on Dec. 31 unless Obama acts.

"If the agencies haven't found the sensitive old documents after nine years, that's some indication those records don't deserve being secret anymore," said Tom Blanton, director of the National Security Archive.

Obama's order probably will centralize the review process for old records, having all agencies look at the same classified documents at the same time through the new National Declassification Center. Michael Kurtz, who has been with the National Archives for the past 35 years, has been chosen as the center's acting director.

Much of the work of a National Declassification Center probably would be conducted at the National Archives facility in College Park, Md., where many of the documents are housed and many of the agency declassifiers already spend a great deal of time.

Critics say Obama should do more than the upcoming executive order is likely to. They note that Clinton ordered a "bulk declassification" of millions of records from World War II and before; they want Obama to do the same with Cold War-era records.

The premise of bulk declassification is that "we're not going to spend taxpayer dollars to go through these records one by one," said William Leonard, Bosanko's predecessor as Information Security Oversight Office director.

And the planned National Declassification Center, said Leonard, should have authority to decide the status of millions of classified records on its own.

"We shouldn't need multiple opinions from multiple agencies," said Leonard.

But intelligence agencies have resisted surrendering their authority over secrets to an interagency group.

__


Standing Wolf

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2009, 11:21:11 AM »
The commoners don't need to know any of that. Standing "Stalin" Wolf said so.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Monkeyleg

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2009, 11:49:10 AM »
What I'd like to know is why the NY Times can get classified documents that are current, but yet cannot seem to get the number of affairs that JFK had while in the White House.

BReilley

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2009, 01:29:47 PM »
Aaaaaand who's surprised?  Only He may have secrets.

While I believe that it is important to publicize documents/records from our recent past, I believe it is much, much more important to practice transparency in the here and now.

This is not the transparency He promised.

RevDisk

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2009, 06:00:16 PM »
Aaaaaand who's surprised?  Only He may have secrets.

While I believe that it is important to publicize documents/records from our recent past, I believe it is much, much more important to practice transparency in the here and now.

This is not the transparency He promised.

At Defcon, EFF made mention of exactly that.  No improvements in transparency whatsoever.  Of either current events, or old ones.  Govt is still stonewalling important FOIA requests like no tomorrow.
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2009, 07:53:48 PM »
Quote
What I'd like to know is why the NY Times can get classified documents that are current, but yet cannot seem to get the number of affairs that JFK had while in the White House.

The New York Times people have friends in high places who want information disbursed; you and I don't.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2009, 08:17:09 PM »
"Serial reviews" are among the requirements causing declassification delays that can take years to resolve. When a classified document contains secrets from multiple agencies, each agency must review its part, a process that can add years to the declassification process.

In 2000, Clinton gave agencies a three-year extension to complete a review of multiple-agency classified records. When it became clear that the deadline wouldn't be met, Bush in 2003 gave federal agencies a six-year extension.

I think this is one we CAN blame on Bush. Note that it says "when it became clear that the deadline wouldn't be met ...", not "couldn't" be met. Having had some exposure (on a state rather than the Federal level) to the way governmental agencies routinely ignore legally "binding" deadlines, giving a 6-year extension accomplished nothing but allowing them an additional six years to figure out ways to stonewall future attempts at achieving compliance.

Freezing their budgets would solve the problem. It's astonishing what an agency can accomplish if lack of accomplishment means they get no paycheck next year.
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Balog

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2009, 08:32:21 PM »
I dunno man, 400 million pages of documents to go through? That'd take a while, for anyone...
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2009, 09:40:34 PM »
There is definitely a need for many things not to be made public. I know that some things that we were doing during the "Cold War" are still going on. The end of the cold war wasn't really an end, some of the players changed position and rankings but not all that much changed.
I went on mission that are still ongoing operations nearly 20 years later. That kind of stuff doesn't need to go public because it would put lives in danger.
On the other hand there is plenty of stuff that needs to be made public.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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RevDisk

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2009, 10:17:49 PM »
There is definitely a need for many things not to be made public. I know that some things that we were doing during the "Cold War" are still going on. The end of the cold war wasn't really an end, some of the players changed position and rankings but not all that much changed.
I went on mission that are still ongoing operations nearly 20 years later. That kind of stuff doesn't need to go public because it would put lives in danger.
On the other hand there is plenty of stuff that needs to be made public.

I've learned that things are classified for two reasons.

1.  To protect sources and methods.
2.  To hide incompetence, cover up costs or CYA.

I will politely decline to comment on which is more preventive.


Disclaimer:  Above does not always apply to SCI.  Just "routine" TS and below. 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

MillCreek

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2009, 11:27:42 PM »
My ex's first husband was a Chief Quartermaster who spent his entire 22 year career in the USN Submarine Service.  For a while, he was assigned to the USS Parche, during its glory days of Ivy Bells and other missions involving communications intercepts.  He hinted that after the demise of the Soviet Union, other countries with ocean coasts may have experienced a downturn in their communications security.

I agree with Larry that if Cold War secrets are still relevant to current operational requirements and methods, I would not be in favor of releasing those secrets.
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RevDisk

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2009, 12:23:15 AM »
My ex's first husband was a Chief Quartermaster who spent his entire 22 year career in the USN Submarine Service.  For a while, he was assigned to the USS Parche, during its glory days of Ivy Bells and other missions involving communications intercepts.  He hinted that after the demise of the Soviet Union, other countries with ocean coasts may have experienced a downturn in their communications security.

I agree with Larry that if Cold War secrets are still relevant to current operational requirements and methods, I would not be in favor of releasing those secrets.

Secrets like screwing Philip French, who designed the coupler necessary to do said above mentioned taps, out of his check for developing the technology. 

To learn said seeeecret current operational requirements and methods, do what the govt did and just pull up Patent 5,286,129     =D
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

ilbob

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2009, 12:31:17 PM »
I dunno man, 400 million pages of documents to go through? That'd take a while, for anyone...

Its non-trivial to go through even a few hundred pages of documents and redact information that should not be released. There are a lot of cases where information that should never have been declassified was unintentionally declassified.

The real problem is the tendency of government to classify everything, whether it needs to be classified or not, and there is no indication that tendency has changed any.

Maybe some of the answer lies in some kind of sunset policy for documents classified as TS or lower. Maybe if it is classified as secret or lower it automatically goes into the public domain after 5 years, and TS stuff after 10 or 20 years.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 12:41:37 PM by ilbob »
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Gewehr98

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2009, 01:03:08 PM »
Dunno.  I'm responsible for a lot of those 400 million pages over my 20 years of time Workin' for the Man.

There's a whole bunch of stuff in there that I wouldn't want our enemies finding out about anytime soon.  

(Google the intelligence terms Sources and Methods sometime)

Just sayin'.   We don't need smarter enemies, making our collections that much more difficult and costly.  =|
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2009, 03:50:31 PM »
I'm with Gewehr98. I took a lot of pictures through a persicope in far away places 20+ years ago and we still send boats to those far away places places.

On a related note - pictures taken through perscopes were at one time classified simply becasue they were taken through the periscope, subject being photographed mattered not. That changed about a month after I had purged our training photos and destroyed hundreds of really neat pictures of various uncalssified subjects.
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Balog

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2009, 04:04:41 PM »
I'd like to see a seperation of classified documents; one stack involving US citizens in America, one involving foreign nationals outside the US. The former to be declassified much faster and more easily than the latter.
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Ben

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2009, 09:20:19 PM »
Quote
and destroyed hundreds of really neat pictures of various uncalssified subjects.

You mean subjects laying on the beach in bikinis?  =D
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2009, 09:51:07 PM »
Not so much that. But passenger and crew on sailboats and other pleasure craft occasionally operated with a clothing optional philosophy. That and  we had pics of various commercial and military surface ships that could have been declassified and would have made neat souvenirs. Many were shot on 70mm film and were darn good pics.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Tallpine

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Re: Do all those government secrets need to be secret?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2009, 05:00:24 PM »
Did you ever take a picture of a Russian periscope taking a picture of your periscope?

 =D
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