B17 Crash

[Tallpine]

We could have probably put the fire out with one of our wildland engines 

[KD5NRH]

So they couldn't even TRY? WTF? MOTHER*expletive deleted*ERS!

So the B17 bomber doesn't have room to carry a couple of large commercial ABC extinguishers on a test flight after a fuel leak repair?  I can't really blame the fire crew for not wanting to get their trucks and people (which might at any time become critical to saving someone's life) stuck in the mud trying to help these bozos.

[Jamisjockey]

So the B17 bomber doesn't have room to carry a couple of large commercial ABC extinguishers on a test flight after a fuel leak repair?  I can't really blame the fire crew for not wanting to get their trucks and people (which might at any time become critical to saving someone's life) stuck in the mud trying to help these bozos.

 

[RocketMan]

Fuel leak repair?  According to whom?

[KD5NRH]

Fuel leak repair?  According to whom?

Looks like the chief pilot's statement doesn't specify the repair, but this was still a ferry flight just after some unscheduled "maintenance."  ("Maintenance" is the stuff you do regularly before something breaks; anything unscheduled is called a "repair.")  I know I take extra precautions the first time out in any vehicle that has just been worked on.

Edit to add: Oil leak.  When flammable liquids are leaking on hot stuff, sensible people carry a couple of dry chem extinguishers. 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chibrknews-vet-turned-down-trip-on-plane-i-was-lucky-this-morning-20110613,0,4273112.story

The pair had originally been scheduled to ride in the B-17 "Liberty Belle” with a handful of other veterans last Friday, Weinstein said. But the flight was postponed due to a “minor oil leak,” Weinstein said.

[Boomhauer]

Oil leak

Radial engines leak oil like crazy.

When I looked at the plane, the way it was (torn apart), if there were maybe two more people in there, maybe we wouldn’t have gotten out

The aircraft landed COMPLETELY INTACT.

When flammable liquids are leaking on hot stuff, sensible people carry a couple of dry chem extinguishers. 

I'm pretty sure the B-17 crew was carrying fire extinguishers.

[RocketMan]

Looks like the chief pilot's statement doesn't specify the repair..

Exactly.  Those old B17s are a complex airplane, age not withstanding.  All kinds of stuff breaks between and during flights even on a well maintained aircraft.  That's just the way it is.  Let's not cast aspersions on what I am sure is a great group of people when we really don't know what happened.
Based on the description of events by the chief pilot, my guess, and it is strictly a guess, would be it was an electrical problem.  He mentioned an the crew noticing an acrid smell a few minutes into the flight.  There are no power-boosted controls in a B17, and almost everything else is electrically driven, flaps and landing gear and such.  The brakes are the only hydraulic system on board.

The way the fuel system is layed out, the size and routing of the fuel lines and how the boost pumps are used, were it a significant fuel leak I would bet they would have smelled fumes in the cabin and had a more serious, visible fire initially.  I saw no mention of that.

I wonder if they still had the self-sealing rubberized fuel tanks in that aircraft?  We still had them in SJ up through '87 when I left the group.  It was a damned expensive and difficult proposition to replace them with metal tankage back then.  Even moreso now I would think.

I suppose it could have been a small fuel leak, maybe around the carburetor or in a fuel line fitting.  Or leaking oil or hydraulic fluid* ignited by engine heat.  I'm trying to remember how the CO2 fire suppression system is laid out in the engine nacelle.   The details are fuzzy after being away for twenty-plus years, but I recall discussions about it being more of a last ditch (and really the only) defense against an engine fire.

In any event, we will know the cause soon enough when the NTSB releases its report.

eta: *If it was hydraulic fluid, it would almost certainly have to be ignited by heat from the exhaust system, maybe down around the turbocharger.  There are no hydraulic lines that I remember running forward of the firewall.

anudder edit fur speeling.

[KD5NRH]

Radial engines leak oil like crazy.

Then we can apply military definitions; "normal" = leaking, "minor leak" = doesn't carry enough oil to last a long trip, "ground the plane for maintenance" = can't pour it in as fast as it's coming out.  They grounded the plane over the weekend.

I'm pretty sure the B-17 crew was carrying fire extinguishers.

Then why not use them?  They've already said they had time to unload gear from the plane, and that the fire was small enough at the start to have been controlled with hand extinguishers.

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2011/06/17/news/update-b-17-liberty-belle-could-have-been-saved-s

"If you look at the pictures, you see a hole in the wing about as wide as a basketball, and no damage to any of the four engines," he said. "If they'd had two or three hand-held extinguishers they may have been able to put it out. The fire had not spread to the fuel tanks yet."

(Worth noting that this twit is the same one whining because the fire department didn't rush their trucks and personnel into the mud and close to the fuel-filled burning tin can to save property.  By his own admission equipment they could have and should have been carrying would have allowed the crew to deal with the problem themselves.)

Oops, this article's saying fuel leak, not oil: http://www.wgntv.com/news/wgntv-plane-crash-in-oswego-june13,0,6580283.story

The Liberty Belle was in Aurora to give rides to war veterans, but it was grounded over the weekend for a fuel leak and maintenance.

[RocketMan]

Oops, this article's saying fuel leak, not oil: http://www.wgntv.com/news/wgntv-plane-crash-in-oswego-june13,0,6580283.story

I will be reserving judgement until after the NTSB report.  In my experience, reporters screw up the facts on anything aviation related every time they put pen to paper.  We used to have that problem all the time when the media visited SJ.

[Boomhauer]

I wonder if they still had the self-sealing rubberized fuel tanks in that aircraft?

If not self sealing, then likely standard rubber fuel tanks, custom made by one of the companies that does so (a pain in the ass rubber tanks are, by the way).

Based on the description of events by the chief pilot, my guess, and it is strictly a guess, would be it was an electrical problem.

That's the first thing I thought, based on the description of it starting in the wing (Cullen spotted flames coming from the left wing). The onboard fire suppression system in the engine nacelles would not have been able to do anything about it, but they activated it anyway.

Worth noting that this twit is the same one whining because the fire department didn't rush their trucks and personnel into the mud and close to the fuel-filled burning tin can to save property.  By his own admission equipment they could have and should have been carrying would have allowed the crew to deal with the problem themselves.)

The crew may have tried to put it out with onboard extinguishers, we don't know. They may not have been enough.



*My father survived two engine fires in our airplane, by the way, so I have some inkling of what I'm talking about when it comes to fire and aircraft...

[Jamisjockey]

I will be reserving judgement until after the NTSB report.  In my experience, reporters screw up the facts on anything aviation related every time they put pen to paper.  We used to have that problem all the time when the media visited SJ.

This.  One of the few .gov agencies I'd consider efficient and dare I say even good at thier jobs.