Challenger shuttle explosion: alive all the way down

[MillCreek]

http://gawker.com/thirty-years-ago-the-challenger-crew-plunged-alive-and-1755727930

http://www.lutins.org/nasa.html

Wow.

[lee n. field]

I remember reading that, sometime later.

[sumpnz]

Knowing some of that is partly why I never tried all that hard to work at NASA.  Much as space flight interested me.

[roo_ster]

O-rings and environmentally correct foam.

[sumpnz]

O-rings and environmentally correct foam.

And political pressure to launch when they knew the temps were too low.  And no 'chute for the crew cabin.  Or even an ELT.

[230RN]

Adm. Richard Truly, the former astronaut who had gone to run the Navy's space command, was back at NASA now, and he favored releasing nothing.

Taken cum granis salis, but tragically amusing anyhow.

Over the years, I'm beginning to suspect that governments can lie.

[RoadKingLarry]

That event still gets me. It was the first time I had had the opportunity to watch a shuttle launch on live TV.
I was back in Oklahoma on emergency leave to go to the funeral of my wife's grandfather. I had to head back to Groton the next day and just happened to catch the pre-launch while channel surfing the 3 channels we could pick up.
It is still my opinion that there were people involved in the making of that tragedy that should have been tried, convicted and executed.
 

[KD5NRH]

Every few days, the Preserver would enter Port Canaveral to unload the debris it had collected. Each time, it would run a gauntlet of still and television photographers lining a sort of informal parade route at the entrance to the port, in an area called Jetty Park, normally a popular campground for recreational vehicle owners and one of the area's nicer beaches. This led to a little joke Devlin and his crew allowed themselves to play on the media.

"We had an old aluminum rowboat below that we'd put over the side for maintenance work," Devlin says. "One day, coming in, I had it brought up and put on the fantail. Sure enough, it was photographed, and this paint-spattered Sears and Roebuck rowboat was identified as shuttle debris."

I so would have had to get an inflatable alien, or maybe some beat to hell but recognizable chunks of a Cuban surface to air missile.

[Hawkmoon]

Over the years, I'm beginning to suspect that governments can lie.

Slow learner, are ye?

[erictank]

And political pressure to launch when they knew the temps were too low.  And no 'chute for the crew cabin.  Or even an ELT.

The number of times I saw the video that came out based on their pre-launch argument...

It was required viewing once a year at North Anna.  The importance of advocating your position, even when everyone else wants to go along and get things over with.

I hated that video with a passion, even while recognizing the importance of the concept it was pushing.

[Hawkmoon]

It was required viewing once a year at North Anna.  The importance of advocating your position, even when everyone else wants to go along and get things over with.

I've made it a practice to do that all my life. It has cost me more than one good half-decent job, but I can sleep at night.

[De Selby]

You'd think "the rocket will definitely explode - launch is outside spec" would be enough to stop the debate.

I guess it's the "I've driven drunk 100 times and never killed anyone!" Mentality - lack of disastrous consequences even one time makes some folk think reckless behaviour is perfectly safe.

[KD5NRH]

I've made it a practice to do that all my life. It has cost me more than one good half-decent job, but I can sleep at night.

Yup. Worked for a guy who essentially guaranteed you would never be penalized for vociferously standing behind a position based on real facts and experience, no matter how unpopular.  If you were right, but the company went the other way and proved you right in an expensive way, there was a good chance you'd find yourself promoted or otherwise rewarded instead of shunned for jinxing it with your negativity like some other places do.  The feelz-before-realz crowd hated him, because they often ended up getting marched out the door for attempting to replace facts and experience with loudness and tenacity.

[KD5NRH]

I guess it's the "I've driven drunk 100 times and never killed anyone!" Mentality - lack of disastrous consequences even one time makes some folk think reckless behaviour is perfectly safe.

This.  Happens in every field.

[Hawkmoon]

In a minor thread drift (but still related to astronuts), Edgar Mitchell just passed away.

http://news.yahoo.com/astronaut-edgar-mitchell-sixth-man-walk-moon-dies-001831991.html

[230RN]

^

Sad news re Mitchell.

Bouncing off your pseudo-thread drift, here's a real thread drift:

Here's your opportunity to make it an even 10,000 posts.  Just happened to notice your post count.

Don't usually pay attention to post counts, but those nines jumped out at me.

Terry

[brimic]

This.  Happens in every field.

Yeah. I called a guy on his negligent behavior yesterday at work- he's only been there 35 years, but he should have known better anyhow.

[RoadKingLarry]

In a minor thread drift (but still related to astronuts), Edgar Mitchell just passed away.

http://news.yahoo.com/astronaut-edgar-mitchell-sixth-man-walk-moon-dies-001831991.html

only 7 left.

Kind of messed up that in 1972 we could land a man on the moon and bring him home and today we beg the Russians to get us to orbit.

[De Selby]

only 7 left.

Kind of messed up that in 1972 we could land a man on the moon and bring him home and today we beg the Russians to get us to orbit.

It's nuts - today the soviet era rockets are the safest, cheapest way to get to space. 

[Hawkmoon]

It's nuts - today the soviet era rockets are the safest, cheapest way to get to space. 

It's worse than that.

A couple or few years ago I saw a Youtube documentary about the space program. There was quite a bit of discussion about the Saturn V rocket. The upshot was that, despite the fact (actually due to the fact) that the Saturn V was built by human workers -- electricians, plumbers, welders, etc. -- who bent pipes and welded tubes together, we can't replicate it today. Why not? Because we no longer have workers with the requisite skills, apparently. Everything we make today is so heavily dependent on robotics that we simply can't build something that big and that complex by hand -- and it can't be done by robots because there isn't room for them to access all the connections and fittings.

[Regolith]

It's worse than that.

A couple or few years ago I saw a Youtube documentary about the space program. There was quite a bit of discussion about the Saturn V rocket. The upshot was that, despite the fact (actually due to the fact) that the Saturn V was built by human workers -- electricians, plumbers, welders, etc. -- who bent pipes and welded tubes together, we can't replicate it today. Why not? Because we no longer have workers with the requisite skills, apparently. Everything we make today is so heavily dependent on robotics that we simply can't build something that big and that complex by hand -- and it can't be done by robots because there isn't room for them to access all the connections and fittings.

That youtube documentary is full of *expletive deleted*it. We can and could make a new Saturn V, better than the old one, if we really felt like it. We just don't. Newer, better designs are being worked on instead.

The Space Launch System currently in development will be bigger and much more powerful. If the program isn't canceled, the SLS Block II will be the most powerful rocket ever built.

[De Selby]

That youtube documentary is full of *expletive deleted*it. We can and could make a new Saturn V, better than the old one, if we really felt like it. We just don't. Newer, better designs are being worked on instead.

The Space Launch System currently in development will be bigger and much more powerful. If the program isn't canceled, the SLS Block II will be the most powerful rocket ever built.

A Great Leap Forward like the shuttle maybe?

All the new tech apparently made things far more expensive and less safe during the last space transport upgrade.

[sumpnz]

That youtube documentary is full of *expletive deleted*it. We can and could make a new Saturn V, better than the old one, if we really felt like it. We just don't. Newer, better designs are being worked on instead.

The Space Launch System currently in development will be bigger and much more powerful. If the program isn't canceled, the SLS Block II will be the most powerful rocket ever built.

I could believe that we'd have a hard time, though not impossible time, building an exact copy of the Saturn V today.  Those skills were learned once and could be learned again.  However, building something much better than the Saturn V would be entirely doable without having to train folks up on obsolete skills.

[agricola]

It's nuts - today the soviet era rockets are the safest, cheapest way to get to space. 

On a slightly related theme, I don't know if anyone is going to be in London between now and March 13th - but if so there is a fantastic exhibition at the Science Museum of Soviet-era space hardware. 

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/visitmuseum/Plan_your_visit/exhibitions/cosmonauts

[Regolith]

A Great Leap Forward like the shuttle maybe?

All the new tech apparently made things far more expensive and less safe during the last space transport upgrade.

That was due to the inherent difficulty of creating a reusable space plane like the shuttle. It's simply way harder to make a reliable, safe vehicle in that configuration. Something like the foam strike that damaged the heat-resistant tiles on the Columbia, for instance, can't happen in a normal rocket, because the heat shield isn't exposed like the shuttle's was; it's hidden behind fairings and is protected by the body of the capsule itself.

The design also makes it very difficult for the crew to escape in the event that something goes wrong. Had the first stage of the Saturn V blown up like the Challenger's did, the Launch Escape System would have yanked the crew clear of the destroyed rocket and allowed them to return to the ground safely. Pretty much all the new manned rocket designs have a system similar to the LES in place.

I could believe that we'd have a hard time, though not impossible time, building an exact copy of the Saturn V today.  Those skills were learned once and could be learned again.  However, building something much better than the Saturn V would be entirely doable without having to train folks up on obsolete skills.

Yeah...if you were building it the exact same way they did back in '68, it'd be difficult. But using modern techniques, I don't think it'd be all that hard at all.

Dynetics and Pratt Whitney Rocketdyne are currently re-engineering the F-1 engine that the first stage of the Saturn V used; they want NASA to consider it for the first stage of the SLS system. They've greatly simplified the design and believe they'll be able to increase thrust by 15% or so. I don't think they'd have a problem getting it working if they are ever given the green light.