Author Topic: Thoughts on 'quality' merchandise... (Read 11556 times)

Firethorn · « **on:** March 19, 2009, 10:04:33 PM »

Today I read another article on tainted goods(drywall in this case) out of china. This got me thinking.

Would it be legal, international treaty wise, to impose, not tariffs, but inspection fees on incoming goods? The fees would go to a system that actually, you know, tests this stuff. Lead in toys, contaminated foods, drywall, other building materials. Make sure the steel in those beams is actually the correct grade, etc...

My second thought involves Microwaves. My parent's first microwave was relatively simple, yet lasted 20 years until a lightning strike took out the timig circuit. I imagine now that I know more about electronics that it probably would have been easy to fix by somebody with a decent knowledge of electronics, even if they had to replace some parts with non-original spec. My parent's second microwave lasted just over a year, and the third two.

My father reports that with AC units, many of the high efficiency models suffer from increased repair costs and reduced longevity due to cheapness - cheapness that ends up saving no energy because a system has to be replaced in 5 years rather than 20 or more. It's probably the same with the lower efficiency units, but especially noticeable on the more expensive ones. And some of the most expensive have the most problems.

Basically, do you know of any way to encourage 'quality' among manufacturers, or at least make it known? I do a lot of reading at Consumer Reports, but even then it's often a crapshot.

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2009, 10:14:13 PM »

Quote

Basically, do you know of any way to encourage 'quality' among manufacturers, or at least make it known?

Yup.

Quality declines, and people don't buy those products anymore.

Pretty much self-correcting.

WalMart sells all sorts of Chinese stuff. If it was that bad, I'd imagine WalMart would be hurting for business.

Standing Wolf · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2009, 11:59:43 PM »

Quote

The fees would go to a system that actually, you know, tests this stuff.

Yeah. Right. The only thing such fees would "test" would be the ingenuity of the "testers" in pocketing the fees.

RaspberrySurprise · « **Reply #3 on:** March 20, 2009, 01:26:27 AM »

Quote

WalMart sells all sorts of Chinese stuff. If it was that bad, I'd imagine WalMart would be hurting for business.

A lot of the stuff we sell at Das Vallmart is not very high quality, the upshot being that it's also dirty cheap. The more complex something is the more damage cheapening does to it.

HankB · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2009, 08:46:11 AM »

Quote from: Firethorn on March 19, 2009, 10:04:33 PM

Would it be legal, international treaty wise, to impose, not tariffs, but inspection fees on incoming goods?

Japan keeps American cars out of their market by doing detailed "inspections" of each vehicle that comes in.

When they tried this with, IIRC, French exports, the French decided that every VCR that Japan exported to France needed to be individually inspected . . . and they assigned one inspector.

Unless a politician is making a point or currying favor with unions (for example, the steel workers) we don't do things like that, even when someone else does it to us.

RoadKingLarry · « **Reply #5 on:** March 20, 2009, 09:29:23 AM »

A good way to fix all this free trade crap is to mirror import/export rules to the country in question. If Japan requiers XYZ inspection of widgets from America, we require XYZ inspection of Widgets frm Japan. If a country bans import of XYZ product from teh US we ban import of a like product from them. Same for tarrifs and other fees.

T.O.M. · « **Reply #6 on:** March 20, 2009, 09:52:05 AM »

I recently had some repair work done on my furnace. In talking with the guy doing the work (Army vet, and it turned out we'd been at the same post at the same time), he said that the newer furnaces are built with safety and efficiency in mind. Problem is that longevity suffers as a direct result. The furnace at my mother's house, installed when the house was built in the 60's, will last forever, but isn't as efficient as mine, which will likely need replacing at some point in the next 5-7 years. So, why not make them the old way? The Gov. standards for safety and efficiency. The computer parts and designs needed to meet the standards simply do not hold up as long as teh old solid state stuff.

makattak · « **Reply #7 on:** March 20, 2009, 10:02:16 AM »

Quote from: Chris on March 20, 2009, 09:52:05 AM

I recently had some repair work done on my furnace. In talking with the guy doing the work (Army vet, and it turned out we'd been at the same post at the same time), he said that the newer furnaces are built with safety and efficiency in mind. Problem is that longevity suffers as a direct result. The furnace at my mother's house, installed when the house was built in the 60's, will last forever, but isn't as efficient as mine, which will likely need replacing at some point in the next 5-7 years. So, why not make them the old way? The Gov. standards for safety and efficiency. The computer parts and designs needed to meet the standards simply do not hold up as long as teh old solid state stuff.

I'm glad someone mentioned this before I could:

The fact is, people have NO IDEA how many problems are directly attributable to government regulation.

People complain how cars cannot be worked on by their owners any longer. Some of it is new technology, but a lot of it is the necessary controls in order to squeeze every bit of "efficiency" out of the engines.

I wish we could get cars and furnaces built as they once were. I'm sure there's a demand for it as well.

The government will not allow it, though.

Want to place blame for an inability to find the products you want built like you want them? Nine times out of ten, look at the government.

The companies did not get together and all decide to make crappy products that would wear out sooner. If so, why didn't just one decide to make quality products and put the rest out of business?

So, lack of quality, lack of longevity, in all the companies' products? Look to the common factor- government.

HankB · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2009, 10:18:24 AM »

Quote from: makattak on March 20, 2009, 10:02:16 AM

Want to place blame for an inability to find the products you want built like you want them? Nine times out of ten, look at the government.

The reason I can't get a newly-built Thompson SMG, HKMP5SD, or M16 is government regulation.

The reason that I can no longer kill bugs with Diazinon or Dursban in my yard, or keep down the weedy grasses with Betasan, is government regulation, which leaves me only more-expensive and less effective stuff to choose from.

And I see the government's fingers in the way my DVD player operates, when I can't fast-forward past cr@p like the FBI warning on a rented disc.

Nick1911 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2009, 10:21:08 AM »

Quote from: makattak on March 20, 2009, 10:02:16 AM

I'm glad someone mentioned this before I could:

The fact is, people have NO IDEA how many problems are directly attributable to government regulation.

People complain how cars cannot be worked on by their owners any longer. Some of it is new technology, but a lot of it is the necessary controls in order to squeeze every bit of "efficiency" out of the engines.

I wish we could get cars and furnaces built as they once were. I'm sure there's a demand for it as well.

The government will not allow it, though.

Want to place blame for an inability to find the products you want built like you want them? Nine times out of ten, look at the government.

The companies did not get together and all decide to make crappy products that would wear out sooner. If so, why didn't just one decide to make quality products and put the rest out of business?

So, lack of quality, lack of longevity, in all the companies' products? Look to the common factor- government.

Yup. Could we build a 100mpg car? Probably. Would it meet emission requirements, crash test safety standards, ect? Nope.

The furnace in my home is from the 1960's, and still works. It's probably only netting about 40% AFLU, but its worked for 40 years.

The control box consists of a transformer, a few relays and some solenoid valves.

There is actually a wiring diagram printed on the inside cover!

Haven't seen that in a while!

I've come to the conclusion that to be able to seriously repair modern devices, one needs to have a good understanding of digital electronics. Yesterday you needed a timing light. Today, you need an oscilloscope. Just the nature of the world, I suppose.

2swap · « **Reply #10 on:** March 20, 2009, 10:23:36 AM »

Quote from: HankB on March 20, 2009, 10:18:24 AM

And I see the government's fingers in the way my DVD player operates, when I can't fast-forward past cr@p like the FBI warning on a rented disc.

I think that is more MPAA-related. At most 'MPAAly bribed government'-related.

MicroBalrog · « **Reply #11 on:** March 20, 2009, 10:24:16 AM »

REgulatory capture, anybody?

AZRedhawk44 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 20, 2009, 11:15:28 AM »

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And I see the government's fingers in the way my DVD player operates, when I can't fast-forward past cr@p like the FBI warning on a rented disc.

Interestingly enough... the code that prohibits stepping past the FBI warning or other "mandatory" sectors of a given DVD is actually initiated by the particular player you have.

Some of the really cheap $20 APEX DVD players will skip right past that stuff, while the nicer JVC/Sony/etc players enforce the mandatory read. Also, the open-source DVD packages for playing a DVD on a PC allow you to skip mandatory content while the PowerDVD and other retail player software enforce the mandatory rule.

I'm thoroughly disappointed in my Toshiba Blu-Ray player though it's supposedly a very good unit. Hunting for some alternate-OS firmware to get rid of all the BS restrictions Toshiba stuffed on it. From the rumor mill, I hear that if I update the firmware via Toshiba's online updater (it has a net port on the back of it) I'll get even more draconian BS.

Some of the enforced "quality" comes from gooberment... but a good chunk of it comes from industry protectionism.

HankB · « **Reply #13 on:** March 20, 2009, 11:53:06 AM »

Fortunately, it's a simple matter to rip a DVD to your hard drive, strip away the cr@p, and burn your own "region-free, user-prohibition free" DVD.

Or so I've heard.

Quote from: Nick1911 on March 20, 2009, 10:21:08 AM

I've come to the conclusion that to be able to seriously repair modern devices, one needs to have a good understanding of digital electronics.

When I was a kid, I used to repair our TV by pulling out the vacuum tubes, hopping on my bicycle and taking them down to Walgreens, where they had a tube tester. When I identified the tube that was bad, I got a replacement from the bin underneath the tester, paid for it, took it home and plugged it in.

Cheaper than calling a TV repairman - I got paid by my folks in ice cream or candy bars.

I figured those days were numbered when Motorola came out with their Quasar television - all electronic assemblies. So if a 10 cent resistor went bad, you had to replace a $25 circuit board.

It's worse now . . .

41magsnub · « **Reply #14 on:** March 20, 2009, 11:58:30 AM »

Quote from: RoadKingLarry on March 20, 2009, 09:29:23 AM

A good way to fix all this free trade crap is to mirror import/export rules to the country in question. If Japan requiers XYZ inspection of widgets from America, we require XYZ inspection of Widgets frm Japan. If a country bans import of XYZ product from teh US we ban import of a like product from them. Same for tarrifs and other fees.

Just remember that started a war in Tom Clancy's world...

Nick1911 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 20, 2009, 12:01:31 PM »

Quote from: HankB on March 20, 2009, 11:53:06 AM

I figured those days were numbered when Motorola came out with their Quasar television - all electronic assemblies. So if a 10 cent resistor went bad, you had to replace a $25 circuit board.

It's worse now . . .

Heck yea. People don't replace circuit boards. The entire device is considered disposable, when it comes to consumer electronics.

Cars aren't like that, yet. But, since everything is controlled by a microcontroller, using sensors and actuators to do it's bidding, you'd do well to have a good understanding of what each sensor senses, what each actuator actuates, and a viable way to test them. Automotive subsystems are pretty awesome when they work right, but can be a real mess when some sensor is reporting bad data.

Harold Tuttle · « **Reply #16 on:** March 20, 2009, 12:22:10 PM »

The labor charge to fix a toaster is greater than the cost of a toaster,
ergo toaster goes into the trash

There is no craftsmanship in moderne goods.
Its all minimum spec to meet the walmart price

DC townhouses are built to the same standards,
unless you can afford a 975K$ brownstone,
but even those are kinda spotty on the craftsmanship

Heck I saw a 870K$ single family craftsman style home with a 3/4 inch grout filled gap on the main staircase.

Gustav Stickley would be appalled at our acceptance of marginal crap in our lives.

Those lead tainted Thomas the tank engine toys are a good case in point.
The Toy company shipped proper paint to China for the products,
someone in China sold that paint and bought cheaper tainted paint for the production line.

HankB · « **Reply #17 on:** March 20, 2009, 01:41:45 PM »

Quote from: Harold Tuttle on March 20, 2009, 12:22:10 PM

The labor charge to fix a toaster is greater than the cost of a toaster, ergo toaster goes into the trash

There is no craftsmanship in moderne goods. Its all minimum spec to meet the walmart price

Funny you should mention this . . . a couple of years ago, I bought a "Toastmaster" brand toaster at Walmart. (Made in China of course - try to find one made elsewhere!)

Despite the adjustable darkness setting, it produced toast in two - and only two - varieties: slightly warm and burnt. Nothing in between.

It went back the next day. Woman who processed my return said it wasn't the first she'd seen come back.

CNYCacher · « **Reply #18 on:** March 20, 2009, 01:48:48 PM »

My favorite byproduct of government regulation: Tin Whiskers
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering

Brad Johnson · « **Reply #19 on:** March 20, 2009, 01:55:08 PM »

Good quality stuff is still available, but you won't find it in most stores because it isn't economically competitive in the mainstream consumer marketplace.

Commercial microwaves are robust critters, made to work 12-15 hrs per day, day in and day out, for years. They are also made to be serviced and repaired, and parts are readily available. But plan on spending at least a grand for a decent used one. New ones can easily run several thousand.

Amana RC30S
Rated Power: 3000 watts
Input Voltage: 220v
Shipping weight: 123 lbs
Price: $1899.00

Brad

zahc · « **Reply #20 on:** March 20, 2009, 02:06:02 PM »

Quote

The fact is, people have NO IDEA how many problems are directly attributable to government regulation.

The first commercial flying car (roadable airplane) is now being manufactured. You know why? A few short years ago the FAA created a new Light Sport aircraft category, that makes a working roadable aircraft feasible.

People in the industrial revolution thought we would have flying cars by the 1980s. We probably would have, if they hadn't been illegal.

makattak · « **Reply #21 on:** March 20, 2009, 02:08:19 PM »

Quote from: CNYCacher on March 20, 2009, 01:48:48 PM

My favorite byproduct of government regulation: Tin Whiskers
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/apr/03/research.engineering

Freaking morons who make arbitrary political decisions with no knowledge or care of its consquences.

I'm sorry, it's things like that that REALLY annoy me because these politicians/bureaucrats are secure in the knowledge that they are so much better than us and care about the environment. So we get rid of lead in everything because if a lot of lead is bad, even a tiny bit is still bad, right?

It's like the arsenic debate in drinking water. Democrats were trying to say Republicans (evil Bush) was trying to poison us with more arsenic in our water because they were pushing for requiring even smaller amounts in drinking water.

Not only is it more expensive, there is no tie to cancer (as some had claimed), and it is likely HARMFUL to people to have less arsenic in their systems.

Another of the odd quirks of the human body: we benefit from very small levels of "poisons" in our body.

But arsenic is dangerous so we'll push that as hard as we can.

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 20, 2009, 02:11:05 PM »

We have a commecial Amana RadarRange in our kitchen, a gift from a friend in the restaurant business.

It's big, ugly, has no internal turntable, delivers only 1000w of power, and looks very dated in the general scheme of things.

However, it's built like the proverbial brick outhouse, and has outlasted several other retail microwaves.

Every time my wife buys another fancy microwave, I put the Amana in the garage on top of the fridge out there.

It's come back into the kitchen twice so far, outlasting two other microwaves in the process.

Nick1911 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 20, 2009, 04:48:02 PM »

Quote from: Brad Johnson on March 20, 2009, 01:55:08 PM

Good quality stuff is still available, but you won't find it in most stores because it isn't economically competitive in the mainstream consumer marketplace.

Actually, Brad, this is a really good point.

It seems that reasonably high quality versions of most things are produced; in smaller numbers, and at substantially higher cost.

You can buy a cheap, crappy plastic flashlight for a few dollars. Or, you can buy a machined, aluminum with brass insert SureFire for $80.

You can buy cheap Chinese shoes that may last 6 months for about $20. Or, you can buy re-soleable shoes made in the US for $200.

Point being, if a substantial market exists (and it isn't regulated out of existence), even niche products with limited demand can be viable, especially in the age of the internet.

bk425 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 20, 2009, 05:47:25 PM »

Quote from: Chris on March 20, 2009, 09:52:05 AM

I recently had some repair work done on my furnace. In talking with the guy doing the work (Army vet, and it turned out we'd been at the same post at the same time), he said that the newer furnaces are built with safety and efficiency in mind. Problem is that longevity suffers as a direct result. The furnace at my mother's house, installed when the house was built in the 60's, will last forever, but isn't as efficient as mine, which will likely need replacing at some point in the next 5-7 years. So, why not make them the old way? The Gov. standards for safety and efficiency. The computer parts and designs needed to meet the standards simply do not hold up as long as teh old solid state stuff.

When I got married not to long ago I had occaision to talk with my bride and father in law about houses. He asked me how old my furnace was, 'cause they'd just put a high efficiency nat gas blower in my brides house. When I said "oh, 30-40 years" I could hear him getting ready to ask when I was replacing it. Thing is, in that time I've had -one- repair; a pump that lasted at least 20 years. It was more expensive to put in warm water heat back when my aunt built the place. I'm sure glad she did it.

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Author Topic: Thoughts on 'quality' merchandise... (Read 11556 times)