Author Topic: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!  (Read 3233 times)

BobR

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Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« on: October 12, 2013, 08:25:35 PM »
The grasshopper (rocket) and the hexacopter. Taking the fiction out of science fiction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZDkItO-0a4


bob

MechAg94

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2013, 09:31:58 PM »
Very cool.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2013, 10:29:11 PM »
Well, OK then.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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AJ Dual

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2013, 11:29:52 PM »
It's always seemed to me that the mass-fraction for VTOL rocket systems didn't pan out for usable payloads to LEO, but maybe that's not accounting newer technology or multiple stages.

OTOH, one has to assume that Elon Musk's engineers know what they're doing.  =D 

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lee n. field

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2013, 02:12:06 PM »
The grasshopper (rocket) and the hexacopter. Taking the fiction out of science fiction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZDkItO-0a4


bob

And with that, I realize that sound is out on this laptop too, on top of failing usb.  Time to go to the backup.
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230RN

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 11:55:47 AM »
Project Vanguard.

Baby steps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D9FZcPyPt4

Every time I hear Ed Herlihy's voice on one of these "Selected Short Subjects" newsreel videos, it brings me back to Saturday afternoons going to the Mayfair Theatre in Flushing NY with my buds.

Tom Mix
Roy Rogers
Popcorn fights
The <horrible thing> that <ate> <came from> <destroyed> <city> <depths of the earth> <outer space> <south pole>.
Someone's soda spilled from the seats behind you running under your seat
The Lone Ranger

I wonder if the "classified" causes of the Vanguard failures were ever released.

Terry

« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 12:09:40 PM by 230RN »
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HankB

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 12:38:39 PM »
I've seen plenty of video over the years of attempts to make a rocket take off, hover, and land.

Cool stability control.

But HOW, exactly, does this get us in space? Is there some "path forward" which will let us pack enough delta-V into one of these to reach orbit? Or is it assumed that we'll be needing one of these for a landing on Mars or elsewhere with lower gravity?

I'm not sure how the payload/propellant equations work out, but even as a first stage booster, it just doesn't seem to be "fuel efficient" for lifting a payload.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 12:45:57 PM »
Well, I think part of my problem was that I was subconsciously conflating VTOL with some of the various SSTO concepts. Those all had serious or insurmountable mass fraction problems. A multi-stage rocket with one or two landing sections is a much simpler chore.

I don't have any birdman-quality math to back up my suppositions, but I'd think that lower rocket stages that have done their job are now mostly empty air, or pressurization helium, so they now mass next to nothing as compared to the original takeoff weight of the rocket, so the amount of fuel needed in reserve for the landing maneuver is probably much less.

Also, I'd think that coming back down, as long as there isn't re-entry or hypersonic compressive heating/ablation on the structure, the gravity is working with the booster stage on the way down instead of against it. So instead of fighting gravity the whole way down, maybe it'll have a flight profile that allows it to fall ballistically until it reaches a desirable terminal velocity, and the landing thrust and fuel demand only has to counter that.
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Tallpine

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 01:51:46 PM »
Wouldn't it be better to just glide the booster back down ???

Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

AJ Dual

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2013, 02:29:39 PM »
Wouldn't it be better to just glide the booster back down ???



Wings or a chute?

Wings would mean a tail, control surfaces, hydraulics or electric actuators, landing gear... a runway. And we're just back to a variant of the Space Shuttle which didn't work out too great in the savings department in the first place.  And IIRC, all the early Shuttle concepts had an aircraft shaped horizontal landing first stage booster with the shuttle piggy-backing, and for whatever reasons, technology of the day, or maybe just practicality, it was ditched.

I think the weight penalty of wings kills the advantages. The direct tail-landing re-uses the same engines that launched the rocket in the first place. So at least the engines are "pulling their weight" and doing useful work both on the way up and the way down.  With wings and a glider first stage, the wings are dead weight and useless on the way up, and then the engines and their turbopumps are useless dead weight on the way down.

Chute landings are still pretty rough and uncontrolled, and you can't control which way the booster stage lies when it touches down either, so I'd think that needs to be a water landing like the Shuttle SRB's. Then everything needs to be waterproofed, or refurbished after exposure to water, a collection vessel needs to be set up, the docks and the cranes to lift it back up etc.

The (barely) reusable shuttle SRB's weren't all that much of a savings either. Especially if once considers their design was the downfall of the Challenger.  =|
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Tallpine

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 02:33:16 PM »
Quote
I think the weight penalty of wings kills the advantages.

Fuel is pretty heavy also.

Wings are just funny shaped fuel tanks.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

AJ Dual

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 02:52:48 PM »
Fuel is pretty heavy also.

Wings are just funny shaped fuel tanks.

Yes, but it's funny shaped fuel tanks and weight/mass stuck way out at the sides of something that is supposed to go from zero to some fraction greater than the speed of sound almost straight up. The mass penalty from making the wings strong enough to support their weight full of fuel while accelerating at somewhere from 4-10 G's is going to be enormous, even if you use super-duper composites.

Wings full of fuel provide their own support through lift in a traditional aircraft. Being launched straight up in a rocket they provide no lift and are just extra drag.  The shuttle had no fuel in it's wings either.  And from the Columbia disaster, the wings were kind of carbon fiber, toilet paper, and spit construction to keep them as light as possible, as witnessed by the lightweight chunk of foam that split off of the main external tank hitting the leading edges and blowing a hole right into them.

I can only assume that since SpaceX's crew is the only one to get stuff into orbit and dock with the ISS with stuff that's completely their own design or other independent companies designs... (For instance orbital Science is using surplus or low cost new production Russian/Urkranian ICBM parts etc...) they know what they're doing and aren't going to bark up the wrong tree. Although I'm playing devil's advocate in favor or VTOL boosters to think through why it's a good idea myself.


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Tallpine

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 04:30:12 PM »
Quote
Wings full of fuel provide their own support through lift in a traditional aircraft. Being launched straight up in a rocket they provide no lift and are just extra drag.

Launch horizontally then  =)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

230RN

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 10:51:03 AM »
^,  =D

A 60° takeoff requires you to get through 1.154 times as much air to reach a given altitude.

A 45° takeoff requires you to get through 1.414 times as much air to reach a given altitude.

A 30° takeoff requires you to get through 2.000 times as much air to reach a given altitude.

They "launch" eastward in the sense that they turn the rocket east as it gets above the most dense layers of air to take advantage of the additional speed of the eastward rotation of the earth.  (Except for polar orbits.)

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INCIDENTALLY,  the horizontal component of the "lift" of the wings during vertical  launch explains (at least to me) why the shuttle always seems to be hanging upside-down underneath the boosters as they tip it over, since that "lift" at lower altitudes is at least in the direction they want to go.  Otherwise, the "lift" would be fighting against the "tipping."  Took me a while to figure that out.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 11:34:28 AM by 230RN »
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birdman

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2014, 06:42:27 PM »
But HOW, exactly, does this get us in space?
I'm not sure how the payload/propellant equations work out, but even as a first stage booster, it just doesn't seem to be "fuel efficient" for lifting a payload.
Its a test of a reusable version of the Falcon-9, which already gets us into space.
The only real addition is a little more propellant (like a few percent) and the legs.

I can only assume that since SpaceX's crew is the only one to get stuff into orbit and dock with the ISS with stuff that's completely their own design or other independent companies designs... (For instance orbital Science is using surplus or low cost new production Russian/Urkranian ICBM parts etc...) they know what they're doing and aren't going to bark up the wrong tree. Although I'm playing devil's advocate in favor or VTOL boosters to think through why it's a good idea myself.
Its ENTIRELY their own production, no surplus, all-new.

I don't have any birdman-quality math to back up my suppositions, but I'd think that lower rocket stages that have done their job are now mostly empty air, or pressurization helium, so they now mass next to nothing as compared to the original takeoff weight of the rocket, so the amount of fuel needed in reserve for the landing maneuver is probably much less.

Also, I'd think that coming back down, as long as there isn't re-entry or hypersonic compressive heating/ablation on the structure, the gravity is working with the booster stage on the way down instead of against it. So instead of fighting gravity the whole way down, maybe it'll have a flight profile that allows it to fall ballistically until it reaches a desirable terminal velocity, and the landing thrust and fuel demand only has to counter that.

AJ is -exactly- correct, and while it is hypersonic, there isn't much heating, as its ballistic coefficient is pretty low, and it comes in engines first.

It's always seemed to me that the mass-fraction for VTOL rocket systems didn't pan out for usable payloads to LEO, but maybe that's not accounting newer technology or multiple stages.

OTOH, one has to assume that Elon Musk's engineers know what they're doing.  =D 

They do, one of their key propulsion guys (main guy behind the new upgraded engine, and a crapload of their other stuff) used to work for me, and I have mentored for quite a while.

Also grasshopper is just a test bed, the real thing is the Falcon-9R.  (Which, btw, they hover test-land the first stage on now before it hits the water)

Hutch

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2014, 07:27:09 PM »
That video looked fake.  Perfectly  symmetric dust plumes on launch and landing?  Perfectly returning to pad?  Dunno what the liquid propellant was, but it burned incredibly clean, no smoke.  Am I too jaded?  Was this for real?
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birdman

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2014, 07:30:52 PM »
That video looked fake.  Perfectly  symmetric dust plumes on launch and landing?  Perfectly returning to pad?  Dunno what the liquid propellant was, but it burned incredibly clean, no smoke.  Am I too jaded?  Was this for real?

You are jaded, it was very real (a few of my friends were at that test).
Propellant is liquid oxygen/kerosene (RP-1).

Hawkmoon

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2014, 07:40:12 PM »
VTOL worked just fine for both Buck Rogers and Captain Video, so it's already "proven technology." (Just takes science awhile to catch up to what kids have known for 50 years.)
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Hutch

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2014, 08:06:44 PM »
You are jaded, it was very real (a few of my friends were at that test).
Propellant is liquid oxygen/kerosene (RP-1).
Well, then, I stand corrected.  Thanks for straightening that out.  LOX and kerosene?  Like the first stage of the Saturn V?  Neat.
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birdman

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Re: Coolest video of the day, possibly of the week!!!
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2014, 09:28:15 PM »
Well, then, I stand corrected.  Thanks for straightening that out.  LOX and kerosene?  Like the first stage of the Saturn V?  Neat.

Yup.  Gives the best cost/benefit due mainly to improved density vs LOX/LH2, especially in first stage.  And its cheap.