Author Topic: We have broken speed of light  (Read 10211 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2007, 06:57:23 AM »
Well, then we'd better get working on some terra-forming tech, there, Mal.  Has any serious work been done on that, or is it just science fiction day-dreams? 
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Manedwolf

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2007, 06:58:47 AM »
There's an interesting book co-written with Arthur C. Clarke called "The Light of Other Days"...in it, they manage to find a way to isolate the mouths of momentary wormholes in quantum foam. You can't travel through them, but you can observe visible light through them, and because they're variable in space-time, they find a way to look through them into the past...and at different locales, moving the other "end".

People use this to watch the famous events of human history and even religions as eyewitnesses, to see the truth. And society nearly collapses as a result of that, absolute and complete upheaval as the truth of so many things is revealed.  grin

As for terraforming, one of the most viable schemes is to dump engineered organisms in massive quantities into atmospheres that are thick enough, but not anything we can use. Like, say, Titan. Or Venus, if something could be found that'd deal with the heat and sulfuric acid. Venus would be ideal for expansion, it's just that right now, it's covered with a dense atmosphere of superheated corrosives (932 degrees F) that would simultaneously crush, burn and dissolve you. A lot of people have described Venus as an Earth that just didn't work. It's similar in size and tectonically active, but a whole lot of carbon would need to be sequestered to cool it down. Others have suggested mining reflective minerals from the moon and scattering them around the planet to reflect some sunlight. In any case, it's so close to Earth's size that it's .9 G, making it absolutely ideal in terms of gravity. You'd only weigh 10% less, which would require no adaptation.

What Venus could look like, terraformed:



Mars is also a possibility, but it would need to be heated significantly, and have a much thicker atmosphere.


Perd Hapley

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2007, 07:31:57 AM »
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You'd only weigh 10% less

After being crushed, burned and dissolved?  I bet you'd way quite a bit less than that.   smiley
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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2007, 12:04:33 PM »
If that fails, I'm going to make a sail out of a bed sheet and put a spotlight behind it.

You can do that in space with a sail several hundred miles wide, to catch the solar wind...but it'll take you a few thousand years to get up to any speed approaching Cgrin

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S. Williamson

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2007, 08:39:33 PM »
I could never figure out why the speed of light was supposed to be impossible to breach.  It's just a speed, ain't it?

Edit: Nevermind.  Got to thinking about the laws of conservation of energy and just before my mind exploded I remembered why.  Something to do with light = energy, energy is needed to propel, and since there's no such thing as perpetual motion there's no conventional way it can be done.

It'd suck, though, to walk in on your wife cheating on you with yourself from a couple hours ago.  shocked


 grin
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LadySmith

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2007, 03:26:25 AM »
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It'd suck, though, to walk in on your wife cheating on you with yourself from a couple hours ago.
That made my head hurt.  cheesy
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AJ Dual

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2007, 08:28:39 AM »
I could never figure out why the speed of light was supposed to be impossible to breach.  It's just a speed, ain't it?

Edit: Nevermind.  Got to thinking about the laws of conservation of energy and just before my mind exploded I remembered why.  Something to do with light = energy, energy is needed to propel, and since there's no such thing as perpetual motion there's no conventional way it can be done.

It'd suck, though, to walk in on your wife cheating on you with yourself from a couple hours ago.  shocked


 grin

Yeah. Photons are massless, they're all "E" and no "m". So the instant you create one, it squirts off like a watermellon seed at c, but it can't go any faster than that (or slower, in a vacuum at least, either.)

If you were on a space ship travelling at 99.9% of c and stood on it's nose and shined a flashlight in front of you, the photons would still look to be travelling away from you at c, and to an observer in a stationary reference frame, the photons you shot off the nose of your ship would also arrive at c as well, but they'd express the difference in potential energy through a higher frequency, and the light would be severely blue-shifted, maybe even x-rays or into the gamma.

And yes, no material object can ever be accellerated to c either, just very close. Because a material object has mass, instead of how a photon emitted from relatavistic moving object gains or loses energy through frequency respective to a stationary reference frame, a material object gains more mass.

So as you start approaching exponentialy closer to c, you mass more, and it takes a commensurately larger energy increase to accelerate you further, and it keeps on increasing at an exponential rate, to the point that after 99.9999----9% whatever, of c there isn't enough energy in all the Universe to push a physical massed object, no matter how small to 100% of c, much less beyond it.

There are potential loopholes. While mass can't move at c or beyond it, it's been demonstrated, at least mathematically, that pieces of space-time themselves can be moved about at rates faster than c from the perspective of a stationary reference frame.  Physicist Miguel Alcubierre postulated that a region of space with a gravity well in front of it, and a negative anti-gravity hill behind it could carry a ship or mass riding motionless within a piece of space-time along at speeds greater than c.

However, there are nearly insurmountable physics and engineering obstacles to producing gravity wells, much less anti-gravity "hills" using projected energy of some kind that are probably almost as bad as simply trying to garner the energy to push mass to c the "conventional" way.
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mtnbkr

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2007, 08:42:17 AM »
Now my head hurts.  Thanks AJ. Sad

Chris

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2007, 08:48:49 AM »
Add in relativity, too, which they know is a fact, but is still hard to deal with.

That if you went out on a round trip at speeds approaching C, while only a year or so might pass for you, decades would have passed on earth. Time is not a constant.


zahc

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2007, 10:27:11 AM »
Quantum entanglement demonstrates that information can travel faster than the speed of light. I'm still not quite up on what the ramifications of that one are.
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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2007, 11:09:58 AM »
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If you were on a space ship travelling at 99.9% of c and stood on it's nose and shined a flashlight in front of you, the photons would still look to be travelling away from you at c, and to an observer in a stationary reference frame, the photons you shot off the nose of your ship would also arrive at c as well, but they'd express the difference in potential energy through a higher frequency, and the light would be severely blue-shifted, maybe even x-rays or into the gamma.

That's just plain hard to imagine - it seems like the light from the flashlight would have to be moving at nearly twice the speed of light.  For the light to be traveling at c relative to the spaceship and relative to a stationary object at the same time, then "space" could not be a fixed size (or maybe it's the time that is shifting?).

Also, if you were traveling somewhere nearly c, and sent a radio message back to earth, it seems like the message would never get back there.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2007, 11:54:07 AM »

Quote
That's just plain hard to imagine - it seems like the light from the flashlight would have to be moving at nearly twice the speed of light.


And people wonder why Einstein's hair looked like that...  grin

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Tallpine

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2007, 12:29:21 PM »
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And people wonder why Einstein's hair looked like that... 

I heard that he never learned to tie his shoes, either Wink
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wmenorr67

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2007, 04:20:06 PM »
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And people wonder why Einstein's hair looked like that... 

I heard that he never learned to tie his shoes, either Wink

Why should he.  He invented velcro.   grin  Just didn't want the rest of the world to know. grin  Got the idea from his hair.   grin
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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2007, 04:24:47 PM »
Quantum entanglement demonstrates that information can travel faster than the speed of light. I'm still not quite up on what the ramifications of that one are.

My reading suggest thats not true. That if you force one to change spin that it breaks the entanglement. The spin change is random but coupled somehow. So information can be passed since you can't control the spin change. I was disappointed when I read it.

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Tallpine

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2007, 05:00:14 PM »
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If you were on a space ship travelling at 99.9% of c and stood on it's nose and shined a flashlight in front of you, the photons would still look to be travelling away from you at c, and to an observer in a stationary reference frame, the photons you shot off the nose of your ship would also arrive at c as well

Upon further reflection, I think I'm getting the hang of this.

Suppose I am in that space ship traveling at 0.999c.  But time has slowed down from my perspective, and since speed is expressed as distance/time, then I'm not really travelling that fast at all.  (maybe I'm not even moving?) So when I turn the headlights on or key up the radio, the light/radio waves travel away from me at c just like I was sitting still, which maybe I am.

Or maybe not....Huh?
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illinoisdeerhunter

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2007, 05:42:00 PM »
This topic is VERY interesting. Especially since I just finished reading A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME by Stephen Hawkings.  WOW...talk about tough reading!  Pretty exhausting for a plain ole history teacher.

Hawkmoon

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2007, 06:13:58 PM »
This thread has made it clear to me why I washed out as a physics major after my freshman year in college. Throwing paint at canvas is a LOT easier to understand than quantum mechanics.

The part I don't quite grok, though, is the statement that if an astronaut traveled faster than the speed of light he would arrive before he left. That doesn't make sense.

Suppose our intrepid hero is at point 'A' and that point 'A' is 558,000 feet from point 'B.' (558,000 conveniently being 186,000 x 3). Suppose our hero departs point 'A' and, through an undiscussed trick of physics is able to accelerate instantaneously to a velocity of 200,000 feet per second -- a mere 7.5% faster than the speed of light, but faster, nonetheless.

So the moment of departure is 0:00:00. 558,000 feet divided by 200,000 fps says to my tiny brain that the trip requires 2.79 seconds, making the time of arrival (assuming equally instantaneous deceleration at point 'B') 0:00:02.79. Our hero has NOT arrived before he departed. However, if an observer at point 'B' had an optical viewer capable of seeing point 'A,' the traveler would arrive at point 'B' before the observer saw him depart point 'A.'
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S. Williamson

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2007, 11:47:20 PM »
Hence the Picard maneuver.

/nerd
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AJ Dual

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2007, 06:33:04 AM »
Quantum entanglement demonstrates that information can travel faster than the speed of light. I'm still not quite up on what the ramifications of that one are.

My crude understanding of quantum entanglment experiments is that no one has been able to prove that you can transmit meaningful information through quantum entanglement faster than light.

It's not like researchers have split a particle of some kind, then put one half in a box and shipped it to Japan, then wiggled the half that stayed in the lab to see if the one in Japan wiggled the same, making a "quantum modem". It doesn't work like that. (How I wish it did!) And at the scale of these lab experiments, the results themselves are measured at the speed of light or less, and interpreted by the researchers brains at a much slower speed than that. So no one has yet to transmit meaningful data faster than light and violate Ensteinean causality on the macro-scale.

The quantum entanglement phenomena is demonstrated via beams of light that are split producing quantum entangled photon-pairs. They then block or polarize one half of the beam, and the other does the same thing, instantly. That's spooky-cool as all hell. And they can measure it in the lab in such a way as to prove that it happens instantly. It's not as if researchers have figured out how to produce two quantum entangled chunks of matter that can then be placed into two separate communication devices that can be placed anywhere in the Universe.

So with the quantum entangled phenomena, if you wanted to send a message to Alpha Centauri, the quantum entangled beam would still take 4.3 years to get there and you've gained nothing beyond the distance of a few feet that the "local" beam was changed at the Earth communication station. So if the beam is split at Earth, and one is aimed at Alpha Centauri, and then the Earth beam gets modulated say 10 feet away from it's splitting point, the beam on it's way to Alpha Centauri will be modulated within the first 10 feet of it's travel too.

I suppose you could try to "stall" the Earth beam within a convoluted 4.3 light-year long fiber optic cable before modulating it, but the speed of light in matter is different than it is in a vacuum. Of course, trying to punch a single beam through a 4.3 light-year long piece of glass would be impossible. You'd need repeaters, and then the quantum entangled light would not be the same as the beam shot at Alpha Centauri once it hit the first optical repeater.

The quantum effect might be useful someday on the micro scale in optical and quantum computing, but I think it's unlikely that you'll be able to transmit information using quantum entanglement faster than light on the macro scale. I hope I'm wrong, FTL communications would revolutionize even things right here on Earth and the satellites that orbit it.

Beyond the weirdness of General and Special Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics, is that every time we find a "loophole", like quantum entanglement, there's some other compensating factor that suggests that the loophole can never be exploited in any meaningful way. It's like the Ten Commandments are written into something far more permanent than stone, the fabric of existence itself for us to find. These are God's laws, and the kinds of things that have pushed me back from agnosticism. At this point one starts running into discussions of the strong and weak Anthropomorphic principle which is a mind-bending discussion of it's own right.
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Manedwolf

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2007, 07:01:51 AM »
Hence the Picard maneuver.

/nerd

That's the only time that show ever bothered with that.

And I prefer the Adama Maneuver.  grin  Far more "pair of big brass ones"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x52joWFK86I

AJ Dual

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2007, 11:17:08 AM »
Hence the Picard maneuver.

/nerd

That's the only time that show ever bothered with that.

And I prefer the Adama Maneuver.  grin  Far more "pair of big brass ones"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x52joWFK86I

That was indeed one of the best moments of small-screen Sci-Fi ever.

And it's simply because the writers had the vision to explore some of the broader ramifications of their fictional technologies and true desperation scenarios.

Unlike Star Trek, which tends towards focusing on the minutiae of those technologies, and producing Ex-Machina solutions far too often.
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tyme

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2007, 12:48:07 PM »
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Beyond the weirdness of General and Special Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics, is that every time we find a "loophole", like quantum entanglement, there's some other compensating factor that suggests that the loophole can never be exploited in any meaningful way. It's like the Ten Commandments are written into something far more permanent than stone, the fabric of existence itself for us to find.

I can imagine someone a few hundred years ago making just such a claim about finding a loophole that would enable a metal shell with hundreds of people to fly over the oceans.

Just because everything we've seen so far indicates that current theories of relativity and QM are fairly solid, that doesn't mean some crazy physicist or patent clerk won't put a metaphorical propeller on a metaphorical wing and blow those theories to pieces.

It upsets me greatly whenever someone like you alludes to some ultimate truth as the reason why physics hasn't advanced in some area.  What is the use of that kind of thinking, besides discouraging people from pursuing research in those areas?  Even if we've hit the wall, we can never know that for sure, and unless people constantly try to push the wall, we don't have even a modest assurance that our current physical theories are sound.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: We have broken speed of light
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2007, 12:52:59 PM »

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that doesn't mean some crazy physicist won't put a metaphorical propeller on a metaphorical wing and blow those theories to pieces.

I'll see your metaphors and raise you a simile.

Brad
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