Author Topic: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?  (Read 17490 times)

The Rabbi

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What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« on: September 04, 2007, 05:32:54 PM »
It seems an article of faith, even among conservatives, that the Iraq War is lost, it is just a matter of time. Even if it isn't lost on the battlefield, it will be lost domestically.
But what if that's wrong?
What if the surge strategy actually works and the country is stabilized?  Will the same people who have been yammering that it was a mistake recant?  Or will they say the ends didnt justify the means?  Or will they claim that we just cut and run because there is still sectarian violence (which there is all over the world anyway)?
Just a thought seeing the reports of Bush's visit.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2007, 06:18:29 PM »
A lack of violence is never news in any other part of the world.  The media will continue to report only bad news, and Iraq will continue to be a media-fabricated failure.  As usual, Rush is correct.  The drive-by media shouts scandal and crime and failure and quagmire at the top of their lungs, at Republican expense - then quietly reports the vindicating truth when all the facts come in later.  Not just on Iraq, of course, but in everything. 


The short answer is that the anti-warriors need never recant, only to feign surprise that things are doing slightly better after the obvious quagmire was entered. 
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Tallpine

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2007, 06:19:42 PM »
I thought we already "won" four years ago Wink
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2007, 07:35:08 PM »
I truly, truly hope win.  I don't think we ever should have gone, but since we did, I don't want us to lose.  I just don't know what winning would look like, or how it would be possible.  Hope it happens though.

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2007, 07:39:47 PM »
Iraq is not a political football.  And anybody who uses it that way needs to be tarred and feathered and then given a public birching in the town square.

LadySmith

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2007, 09:52:32 PM »
The cut & run crowd will claim victory saying it's because they forced that stupid-but-evil genius Bush to change strategy.
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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2007, 03:15:56 AM »
The funny thing is, much like Vietnam, every battle we enter with the enemy we win. The problem is, to meet our objectives, we have to rely on a bunch of people to perform as we want them to (IE, the Iraqi government, and the Iraqi Police).  Without installing a true puppet government, there is no way to win this war.
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HankB

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2007, 03:19:28 AM »
I figured we didn't want success when we made no effort to kill Muqtada Al Sadr, the leader of the terrorist Mahdi Army. (What a change in attitude since we used a special flight of P-38s to shoot down Yamamoto's plane in WWII . . . sad )
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Manedwolf

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2007, 04:09:40 AM »
I honestly think it can't be stabilized as-is because Iraq was never a self-declared country, it was created by outside forces and held as such by an iron fist. It wants to be three separate countries.

The Sunni and Shi'a hate each other. The Kurds are hated by both and would like to be left alone. Some of the marsh arabs in the south would like to be left alone, too.

Now, if we let it be Kurdistan, (the Kurds like us), and Sunni and Shi'a states to the south, perhaps it might settle down. Then they'll just fight over the oil rights.

We could even have a big, stable regional base in Kurdistan, and the Kurds wouldn't try to blow it up.


 

K Frame

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2007, 04:20:05 AM »
Silly, silly man.

The Iraq war IS lost.

Why?

Because the pundits and Democrats tell us so.

Don't you know better than to question your moral and intellectual betters?
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Bogie

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2007, 04:34:15 AM »
Long-term, we need a stable middle east, as we need other regions around the globe to remain stable. We're not there for oil. If we were there for oil, we'd have it.
 
Iraq was a good first step, and it's getting better.

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El Tejon

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2007, 05:01:57 AM »
If we win in Iraq, I will leave America and go live in Alec Baldwin's compound.
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longeyes

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2007, 06:30:04 AM »
Win in Iraq, lose in D.C. and in the heartland of America--yeah, that policy makes huge sense.

The nation is dissolving from the inside out, being eaten up from the inside out...and we're concerned about "stabilizing" Iraq as what will eventually be an "Islamic Republic" (oxymoron?).  O brother.  How about stabilizing our own borders or the transformation of the American economy into a plantation society or the complete dissolution of responsible representative government?

The Iraq problem is Bush's psyche writ large: Iraq is an addiction.  Whatever he's working out there is a huge and ugly distraction.  If he wants to deal with Islamofascism I can show him on a map where the problem originates, assuming he doesn't know and can't read where the checks are coming from.  Meanwhile, he's revealed that he cries a lot....when we should be crying over the utter lack of leadership.  What a charade, what a disgrace.
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wooderson

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2007, 06:37:19 AM »
Roughly as meaningful as "What If Dick Cheney Peels Off His Skin Mask And Reveals That He's One Of The Aliens From 'V'?"
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Manedwolf

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2007, 06:37:34 AM »
This is why I think letting it divide would not be so bad. For these people, religion = politics, so why not?


The Rabbi

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2007, 06:43:13 AM »


The nation is dissolving from the inside out, being eaten up from the inside out...a

I am soo glad I live in a different country from you.  Maybe you should just go kill yourself if things are really that bad.  Maybe move in with Alec Baldwin.  Perhaps a sight-seeing trip to N.Korea.  Then you can see what real totalitarianism looks like.  Perhaps a trip over the Chinese border so you can see what border control looks like (hint: it doesn't work there either).
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El Tejon

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2007, 06:52:25 AM »
No way!  Alec's guesthouse is mine, I don't want to live in the main house and share a bathroom with Alec Baldwin! shocked
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The Rabbi

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2007, 07:38:27 AM »
No way!  Alec's guesthouse is mine, I don't want to live in the main house and share a bathroom with Alec Baldwin! shocked

I'm sorry I have to share breathing-space with him...
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Phantom Warrior

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2007, 07:48:51 AM »
Quote from: ManedWolf
I honestly think it can't be stabilized as-is because Iraq was never a self-declared country, it was created by outside forces and held as such by an iron fist. It wants to be three separate countries.

The Sunni and Shi'a hate each other. The Kurds are hated by both and would like to be left alone. Some of the marsh arabs in the south would like to be left alone, too.

Now, if we let it be Kurdistan, (the Kurds like us), and Sunni and Shi'a states to the south, perhaps it might settle down. Then they'll just fight over the oil rights.

This post is going to make me very unpopular with the conservative/Bush supporting crowd in this thread.  Which is ironic because I am myself an archconservative and a Bush supporter on most issues...except the war.

There is a distinct tendency by conservatives to react to any conversation about Iraq by blindly launching off into a tirade about how "we could just win this war if those cut and run Demorats would just get out of the way and support our troops and if you don't stand behind them you can stand in front of them and if the MSM would just report the truth you'd see how good Iraq really is."

Liberals are every bit as guilty, they just go off in the "Bush is an evil tyrant and he lied to get us into this war and where are the WMDs and Bush stole the election" direction.

Before I came here I was guilty of the same blind conservative tirades I just described.  As with many things, somewhere closer to the center lies the truth.  The "war in Iraq", with the goal of a united Iraq is probably not feasible.  I quoted ManedWolf's post because it very accurately sums up the reality in Iraq.  Notice the part I highlighted.  That is the majority of the problem in Iraq today.  Not al-Qaeda, not foreign fighters, not even Iran.  It is that the Shia and the Sunni hate each other.  They don't want to work together, they don't want to govern together, they don't want to live together.

An outstanding comparison I read recently was between Iraq and Yugoslavia.  Tito kept Yugoslavia together by force and ruling with an iron hand.  When he died, all the Serbians and Croatians and Bosnians and other ethnic groups suddenly had freedom...the freedom to kill each other.  Trying to get them to live together just didn't work.  But separating them into ethnically homogeneous countries has allowed them to live peacefully with people like them.

Iraq will probably end up requiring something similar.  Splitting the Kurds off into Kurdistan would take care of them.  They are already most of the way to to being an independent country anyway.  It's my understanding that we are holding them back to keep from pissing off Turkey right now.  Western Iraq would become Sunni-stan.  If you pay attention to all the trumpeted security and pacification of the al-Anbar province, that's the real reason for it.  Al-Anbar is mostly Sunni.  They cooperated with coalition forces because they are tired of being blown up by al-Qaeda.  It doesn't mean they like Shia though.  Southern Iraq would become Shia-stan. 
EDIT: ManedWolf's map came up while I was composing this lengthy post.  It perfectly illustrates what I'm talking about.

There are two problems with this proposed plan.  One being ethnically heterogeneous areas like Baghdad.  Note all the striped areas in the map  The other being the fact that most of the oil would be in Kurdistan and Shia-stan.  Some kind of oil revenue sharing would have to be created between the three countries to keep the Sunnis happy.


All the Alec Baldwin jokes and the snide comments about the Democrats and the MSM aside, the reality of it is that Iraq is not a military problem.  We could put a Bradley on every corner in Baghdad and it still wouldn't resolve the fundamental antipathy between the Sunnis and the Shia.  We are spending 12 billion dollars and 100+ American soldiers lives each MONTH to try and unite people that don't want to live together.  And this whole discussion is completely ignoring issues like corruption or how completely ate up the Iraq government is, particularly the Iraqi Security Forces.

We need to get our soldiers out of the job of try to fix this country.  Will there be a bloodbath when we leave?  Probably.  Would there be a bloodbath anyway if we stay here longer?  Probably.  My favorite metaphor for Iraq is a spoiled, rebellious, criminal adult child.  You care and you want to fix the problem, but at some point you have to let them sink or swim on their own.  We are keeping the Shia and the Sunni apart enough that they can keep fighting.  If we step back they will either finally get tired of killing each other or enough refugees will have moved around that groups will be separated enough that Iraq can have a chance at peace.  Until then, we are just trying to fix a political/social/religious problem with military force.  And it won't work.

The Rabbi

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2007, 08:11:07 AM »
You also have political difficulties.
A Kurdistan is the last thing Turkey, an important ally in the region, wants.  A divided and weak Iraq would be inviting to Iran, possibly leading to an annexation.
It isn't that the division plan doesn't have merit, I think it does.  But it is a lot harder than snapping fingers.
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longeyes

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2007, 08:44:45 AM »
Quote
I am soo glad I live in a different country from you.  Maybe you should just go kill yourself if things are really that bad.  Maybe move in with Alec Baldwin.  Perhaps a sight-seeing trip to N.Korea.  Then you can see what real totalitarianism looks like.  Perhaps a trip over the Chinese border so you can see what border control looks like (hint: it doesn't work there either).

Well, you live in Tennessee, don't you?  Maybe that qualifies, I don't know.   grin

Look, I hold no brief with Alec Baldwin, Sean Penn, et al.  I'm saying two things: Bush's STRATEGY in Iraq for dealing with the very, very real and nasty problem of global Islamofascism is extremely questionable.  Worse, it seems to willfully ignore the actual political realities of the sources of problem.  The willful ignorance appears to derive from economic complicity with the very forces that we pretend to be fighting.  Unfortunately, some very brave Americans are paying for the price, in blood, for the political hypocrisy.

As for the rest, if you don't see that America, though a GREAT NATION, is going through a dark night of soul because it is self-conflicted and self-divided and self-lacerating and has abandoned a lot of its core principles, then you are right, we not only live in different countries we will, in the days to come, end up living literally in different countries because where all of this is heading is secession, expulsion, or both.  I see it even if you clearly do not.
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K Frame

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2007, 09:25:55 AM »
"is going through a dark night of soul because it is self-conflicted and self-divided and self-lacerating and has abandoned a lot of its core principles, then you are right, we not only live in different countries we will, in the days to come, end up living literally in different countries because where all of this is heading is secession, expulsion, or both.  I see it even if you clearly do not."

Oh please.

You're not old enough to remember the late 1960s and 1970s, are you...

You think the United States is "dissolving from within"?

I guarantee you that had you lived through the late 1960s and 1970s (I remember the 1970s, starting around 1972) and still have nighmares about this country from 1976 to 1981) you'd have absolutely NO illusions that we're somehow dissolving from within.
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The Rabbi

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2007, 09:36:17 AM »
Well said, Mr Irwin.
I remember the mid to late '70s all too well.
The US had gotten its butt kicked by a bunch of tire-wearing pajama-clad commies.  The Russians were expanding influence all over the place.  Inflation was in the double digits.  Unemployment was getting that way.  We had a Constitutional crisis with Nixon and an unelected weak president with Ford. Every major industry in the U.S. was losing share to the Japanese, who were buying up everything in sight.  ANd if they weren't, the Arabs were.
Jimmy Carter got elected.  Disco came on the scene.  Qiana shirts were in.  And Tony Orlando & Dawn were musical stars.
It doesn't get worse than that.
By those standards, these are glory days.
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El Tejon

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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2007, 09:48:16 AM »
Don't forget the Global Cooling Hysteria in the '70s and the blizzards that stalked the Midwest in '78 and '79!
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Re: What If We Actually Win In Iraq?
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2007, 10:36:04 AM »
The responses in this thread highlight the problem-nobody knows, let alone is able to articulate what 'Win in Iraq' means. The only consensus is that the Dems are the enemy and will ultimately be responsible for any 'failure' (whatever that means) in Iraq.

Maybe annihilation of the Dems and any other anti-Iraq-war types='Win in Iraq'?