Author Topic: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.  (Read 16862 times)

Barbara

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #100 on: September 23, 2007, 06:03:08 PM »
Sex has many potential consequences, including diseases and pregnancy, and can be used to manipulate. Adults should not be having sex with children, regardless of their gender and regardless of how willing the person is.

Strings

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #101 on: September 23, 2007, 06:38:18 PM »
^^^^^^^^^
Wise words!

Tallpine

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #102 on: September 24, 2007, 06:52:58 AM »
Quote
Adults should not be having sex with children, regardless of their gender and regardless of how willing the person is.

Agreed, but how do you define "children" ?

There are societies where marraige of girls at 14 is not only accepted, but expected.  (maybe we should just go bomb those societies?)

Sort of like when a 16 yo commits armed robbery or other violent crime - is he(she) a "child" or an "adult" Huh?
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Strings

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #103 on: September 24, 2007, 07:51:59 AM »
I hate to go into a "moral equivalency" arguement, Tallpine, but we're only responsible for what goes on in this country: not our job to police the world to follow our standards...

Tallpine

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #104 on: September 24, 2007, 09:06:40 AM »
Quote
we're only responsible for what goes on in this country: not our job to police the world to follow our standards

Really Huh?

(someone better tell our elected leaders about that  rolleyes )
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tyme

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #105 on: September 24, 2007, 10:22:03 AM »
Strings, unfortunately, the data suggest that not laws but culture (and, I'd argue, social perception of sex) is the important factor.

Canada, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, even Puerto Rico... age of consent - 14
France - 15
Spain, South Korea - 13
(U.S. states' age of consent ranges from 16-18)

Yet the U.S. is much worse than countries such as Canada, France, UK, Spain, etc. when you look at teen pregnancy rates, teen abortion rates, STD rates, percentage of teens age 14-16 having sex... the only area where the U.S. is "better" in a pro-life sense is that the abortion _ratio_ (teen pregnancies aborted per capita) is less.  But that's a Pyrrhic victory, since the teen abortion rate is higher; it's just that a lot of pregnant teens in the U.S. tend to keep their babies, while those in other countries don't keep them nearly as often.

I also haven't heard about hordes of antisocial misogynists in the above countries, which Strings' theory would suggest there should be, assuming laws control teen sexual behavior.

I think you'd be much better off trying to negate the media's hyper-sexualization by downplaying sex qua sex.  I doubt anything else will help.

Strings, jfr, and just about every other social conservative here are not making an argument just about adults having sex with minors, but about minors having sex at all.  Of course everyone agrees that sex between adults and "children" carries more risk of serious consequences in many cases, but the core issue is that social conservatives think that the law needs to protect children from the consequences of sex.

I hate to break the bad news, but minors having sex with their peers (within a certain age differential) is legal just about everywhere down to a certain age (usually somewhere between 12-14).  Even in cases where kids younger than that have sex, it's almost never prosecuted, even though it's technically illegal, unless there's a substantial age differential.  How exactly could you justify prosecuting a 10-year-old and an 11-year-old fooling around, no matter how much you might disapprove?  Before puberty, the harm of punishment doesn't make sense given the typical innocence of those involved.  And after puberty, anything you do or say is going to have to compete with a) hormones and b) the media.  I doubt that laws can compete with those forces.  Only upbringing and choice of socialization groups can.

Kidding aside, doesn't the notion of adults taking advantage of sweet young 13-year-olds seem like terror to some of you?  Why are we not invading Spain?  Or South Korea?  Oh wait, we HAVE troops in Spain and South Korea, and we haven't done anything about THAT.

Barbara, as Tallpine implied, your comment suggests that you need to research age of consent laws.  There is no general prohibition against adults having sex with minors, if that's in fact what you meant by "children."  Basically, minors cannot enter into contracts, but sex (with peers) is not deemed serious enough to require a contract.

Nevertheless, I realize that most people, including parents, think that turning 18 makes sex with a 17-year-old magically illegal... even though that's almost never true (maybe in some 3rd world hellholes).  I know that when I was in high school, a classmate's parents (who weren't exactly dumb... the father was a general counsel for a major company iirc) were telling other parents that they'd cautioned their own son on precisely those (imaginary) grounds.
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Strings

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #106 on: September 24, 2007, 10:28:14 AM »
Wait a second: when did *I* become a "social conservative"?

 Yes... I think we should do what we can to curb sexual relations by minors. If THAT is enough to make me a social conservative, then I've been mistaken in the other aspects of my personal life...

CAnnoneer

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #107 on: September 24, 2007, 10:39:07 AM »
There is also a purely biological component to consider. Generally, women are fully developed by 16, while some develop earlier. If biologically they have completed puberty, why is the legal age 18 ? Who decided that and on what grounds?

Independence? There are people sucking on their parents' teat well in their 20s, 30s, or even 40s.

Emotional maturity? Most people in their 20s, especially among the "college" crowd, sound like pubescent teenagers to me.

Sense of Responsibility? Same wild variations as above.

Besides, somehow they are mature enough to have kids, but not mature enough to have sex??

Methinks something is fishy.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #108 on: September 24, 2007, 12:42:14 PM »
Methinks something is fishy. 

That was a mean blow, Phyphor CAnnoneer. Let's keep the discussion clean.   laugh


Wait a second: when did *I* become a "social conservative"?
Hey, Strings, I'll PM you with the details for that pro-life rally.   cheesy
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roo_ster

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #109 on: September 24, 2007, 01:30:37 PM »
Sex has many potential consequences, including diseases and pregnancy, and can be used to manipulate. Adults should not be having sex with children, regardless of their gender and regardless of how willing the person is.
We have a winner...
Regards,

roo_ster

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CAnnoneer

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #110 on: September 24, 2007, 03:24:22 PM »
Methinks something is fishy. 

That was a mean blow, Phyphor CAnnoneer. Let's keep the discussion clean.   laugh

See an earlier post on perception/construal Tongue