Author Topic: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.  (Read 16863 times)

Jamisjockey

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2007, 02:21:52 AM »
Why are women under-represented among pedophiles?  We must do something about this inequality.  For too long, women have been told that they can't abuse children, just because they aren't male.  That is just wrong.  Sisters, empower yourselves!  Equality now! 

Its the double standard.  A female teacher is seduced by a strapping teenage boy-man....but a male teacher is a dirty old lech for having sex with a poor, defenseless teen girl....
Our society doesn't generally accept that a woman can be a phedophile, nor that there is something wrong with the sexual interaction of older women and young boys.
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Strings

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2007, 02:37:42 AM »
Actually Jamis, that IS changing...

 Problem I have with some of the views is some of the things I've seen. A 4 year old girl, out in the bars with a fake ID, can get a guy busted as a pedophile. Or, overheard a couple girls at a local coffee shop around 2300 hrs, talking about hanging around outside a bar "to get some guy in trouble"...

 Personally, I blame parents for, gee, not being parents...

Phyphor

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2007, 07:49:14 AM »
Who knew testosterone would become a hazardous material?

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Jamisjockey

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2007, 07:52:15 AM »
Actually Jamis, that IS changing...

 Problem I have with some of the views is some of the things I've seen. A 4 year old girl, out in the bars with a fake ID, can get a guy busted as a pedophile. Or, overheard a couple girls at a local coffee shop around 2300 hrs, talking about hanging around outside a bar "to get some guy in trouble"...

 Personally, I blame parents for, gee, not being parents...

I think you meant "14"?

I'm sure kids have picked up on the fact they can mess with adults by accusing phedophilia.  A reason I will not be volunteering in any activities that require me to be alone with other people's children. 
JD

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Antibubba

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2007, 07:53:33 AM »
Manedwolf:
Quote
Noticing teen girls that are well past puberty is normal as long as one just notices. But if someone looks at any young child that way, they need to either get serious mental help or off themselves as soon as possible, for everyone's benefit. There's no excuse for that, ever.

It just makes me wonder what is going on with some of the clothing designers in that regard, because my reaction to seeing that sort of outfit for a little kid is nausea and revulsion...and wanting to smack the parent.

There's something seriously wrong with society if the sexualization of children is okay...and if there's no possible innocent context seen to hugging a child anymore.
 

Pedophiles aren't born, they're made.  That's the prevailing theory, anyway.  But have you ever considered the idea that, simply by the sheer number of teenyboppers who are dressing to thrill that we're creating a subtext that says "This is is good"?

After the John Benet Ransey pageant stuff came out I thought there'd be more of a reaction--but I didn't think it'd be embraced.
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longeyes

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2007, 08:07:13 AM »
I concede: Men are beasts; women are perfect.

But I have a nagging question:  Didn't all these beasts have mothers?  Women have been the hands that rocked the cradle from time immemorial.  What happens in a culture doesn't emanate from only one quarter.  I think we just don't want to see what's happening on a microcosmic level.  There's plenty of "abuse" to go around.
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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2007, 11:12:21 AM »
I guess what I'm getting at with the car wash thing is that it just seems really stupid to let your teenage daughter stand around half-dressed in public, soaping up strangers' cars.

Time to watch Cool Hand Luke again.

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longeyes

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2007, 12:04:03 PM »
Civilization: Men curbing their worst impulses. 

Okay, it's a deal.

Now when do women start curbing theirs?
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2007, 12:09:08 PM »
Now when do women start curbing theirs?

Just before you start dating them.

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2007, 12:19:06 PM »
Monday, September 10, 2007 - Page updated at 02:03 a.m.


Female sex offenders reveal cultural double standard
By Rebecca Morris
Special to The Seattle Times

It all seems so terribly familiar.

A trusted, even respected or beloved teacher is accused of having a sexual relationship with a student.

What used to shock us, but is now much too commonplace, is that the teacher is a woman.

Their names become tabloid headlines: Mary K. Letourneau, Debra Lafave, Pamela Diehl-Moore and others.

And now two more cases, both local.

Jennifer Leigh Rice, a 31-year-old former Tacoma teacher, was charged with having sex with a 10-year-old boy who had been in her fourth-grade class. The boy's father says she lavished the boy with attention until she was told not to come to their house anymore.

So she abducted the boy, police say, drove him to a highway rest stop outside Ellensburg and had sex with him. After her arrest in early August, Rice said she'd had sex with the boy four or five times, including once when she sneaked into his house as his parents slept.

Earlier this year, former Tenino math teacher Dawn Welter, 38, was charged with second-degree sexual misconduct after spending the night at a motel with a 16-year-old female student. Her lawyer explained her relationship with the student as "horseplay that became sexual."

The decadelong wave of sexual offenses committed by women  teachers in particular have exposed a cultural double standard: The public is more willing to accept the female abuser's claim that she had a "relationship" with the victim. And in cases in which the male is a teenager, the sexual abuse is more likely to be dismissed as a rite of passage. The questionable, yet overriding assumption, is that women predators are somehow different from men.

"Men are demonized, women are diagnosed. Men are beasts, but women are troubled or mentally ill," said media scholar Matthew Felling in an interview with Fox News. In fact, accounts of women sexual offenders are often more titillating than harsh. Felling calls the news coverage of young, attractive teachers involved with their students "part crime drama, part Penthouse letter."

About 25 percent of women and up to 17 percent of men say they experienced sexual abuse as children, ranging from seeing someone exposing themselves to intercourse. Boys are less likely to report abuse.

Despite the troubling news accounts, the National Education Association says schools are still among the safest places for children to be. The number of cases of sexual abuse by teachers, male and female, is less than 10 percent of all sex crimes against minors.

The current awareness of women predators began with Mary K. Letourneau, a 34-year-old elementary-school teacher and a married mother of four, who in 1996 began a sexual relationship with a 12-year-old former student, Vili Fualaau. Letourneau eventually had two children with him and served more than seven years in prison. She resumed contact with Fualaau, by then an adult, after she was released. While a male offender might have been publicly shunned, Letourneau's 2005 wedding to Fualaau was covered by "Entertainment Tonight."

Female predators' crimes are often attributed to marital problems, depression, loneliness, immaturity or self-esteem issues. Letourneau was reported to have "a loveless marriage" and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

Spiritual "relationships"

Not only do we look at female offenders differently, so do the offenders themselves. Women predators are more likely to see the abuse as a romantic relationship. Letourneau told CNN's Larry King that she and Fualaau had a "deep spiritual oneness" before they were ever sexual, and that she did not consider herself a sexual predator.

Dr. Leigh Baker, a clinical psychologist in Colorado, interviewed hundreds of male and female predators for her book "Protecting Your Children From Sexual Predators." All were incarcerated at the time, and their stories help form her theory that there are four types of predators: inadequate, narcissistic, anti-social and pedophile.

An inadequate adult (and predator) has trouble forming attachments with other adults and is most comfortable with children, she says. A narcissist loves him- or herself to the detriment of others; someone who's anti-social doesn't abide by society's rules; and a pedophile is sexually aroused by children.

While some women are pedophiles and some men do profess their love for the children they sexually abuse, women are more likely to "couch it as a relationship," according to Baker. Men are more likely to be serial pedophiles; women seek that "deep spiritual oneness" that Letourneau says she found.

The traits women predators exhibit  seeing themselves as a victim, low self-esteem, a sense of inadequacy, needing to be the center of attention, putting their own need for a connection before common sense  probably place most women predators into two of Baker's four categories.

"My suspicion is if you took a large enough number of female predators, they would fall into all four types. But, we know women are less anti-social than men, and there are fewer female pedophiles, so I think most women are narcissistic or inadequate types of predators."

There are signs of the inadequate, the narcissist and the anti-social predator in Letourneau. She formed an inappropriate bond with a 12-year old, ignoring society's mores and the well-being of her own four children.

While a mental illness may produce hypersexuality, impulsiveness and poor decision-making, such a diagnosis for a sexual predator is rare, according to Baker. They are more likely to have a personality disorder (such as a anti-social, or narcissistic) or to have been sexually abused themselves.

The "Mrs. Robinson Syndrome"

To watch NBC's "To Catch A Predator" you'd think all predators are men. The series uses decoys on the Internet to lure men hoping to hook up with underage teens. Robert Weiss, executive director and founder of the Sexual Recovery Institute in Los Angeles, who provided his expertise in one of the episodes, says sexual compulsions on the Internet are male-dominated.

But female predators are beginning to use the Internet  not in an anonymous way to find children but to stay in close touch with those they are involved with. Rice, the former Tacoma teacher, communicated online often with the 10-year-old she had sex with, according to court records.

Then there is the ultimate double standard: The wink wink, nudge nudge, of boys getting their sexual initiation from grown women.

"Society sees it as they got 'lucky' " to receive a sexual initiation from a woman, according to Dr. Keith Kaufman, chairman of the department of psychology at Portland State University. "But their brain maturation isn't complete. Boys aren't in a position to give consent to a sexual relationship. Girls see it as abusive much more quickly. Boys won't want to see themselves as a victim."

There is a prevailing sense that boys are not harmed by sexual liaisons with older women. It's called the "Mrs. Robinson Syndrome," after the character in the 1967 film "The Graduate." But Benjamin, Mrs. Robinson's target, wasn't a child; he was in his 20s, had just graduated from college and was contemplating that career in plastics.

"We tend to see the female teacher-male student relationship as less abusive and less harmful psychologically," according to Dr. Susan G. Kornstein, a psychiatrist and director of the Institute for Women's Health and the Mood Disorders Institute at Virginia Commonwealth University. "But in fact, a sexual relationship between a female teacher and a male student can be just as harmful and can have both short- and long-term consequences on the child's emotional stability and psychological and sexual development."

Boys who have sex with grown women are anything but "lucky." "It is always abuse," says Dr. Kaufman.

Rebecca Morris has been a broadcast and print journalist for 33 years. She teaches journalism at Bellevue Community College.

Copyright © 2007 The Seattle Times Company
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MechAg94

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2007, 01:39:59 PM »
I had almost forgotten, but there was a little scandal at my high school over a female teacher and a female student.  I think the female teacher was allowed to resign.  This all came out not long before graduation of the student in question. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2007, 01:48:30 PM »
Shouldn't there be two different standards, when we're talking about two very different sexes? 
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TF_FH

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2007, 02:54:45 PM »
I can't find the case for the life of me now, but under NJ law, you can be prosecuted and convicted of statutory rape even if you had a reason to believe the other party was of age.  Happened to some guy in NJ with a girl he met at a bar that had a fake ID.  According to the law it was still illegal, even though the guy saw the ID and it fooled the cops as well.  Crazy state that is.  And everyone wonders why I don't want to go back.  rolleyes

Balog

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2007, 05:23:09 PM »
Shouldn't there be two different standards, when we're talking about two very different sexes? 

Uhhh, no?
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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2007, 05:41:59 PM »
Shouldn't there be two different standards, when we're talking about two very different sexes? 
Now, that's crazy talk, taking into consideration folks' differing biologies.

Next you'll write that we ought to have mens' & womens' restrooms, rather than one common restroom or even bar women from some MOSes in the military.

Freak.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2007, 05:51:24 PM »
Shouldn't there be two different standards, when we're talking about two very different sexes? 

Uhhh, no?


So, you'd like to pretend that gender differences don't exist?  You're telling me that a man having sex with a teenaged girl is the same as a woman having sex with a teenaged boy? 
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Thor

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2007, 06:03:23 PM »
Shouldn't there be two different standards, when we're talking about two very different sexes? 

Uhhh, no?


So, you'd like to pretend that gender differences don't exist?  You're telling me that a man having sex with a teenaged girl is the same as a woman having sex with a teenaged boy? 

Morally, there is NO difference
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2007, 06:48:10 PM »
I disagree. 
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BryanP

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2007, 07:11:04 PM »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2007, 07:17:08 PM »
Enlighten you?  I can't straighten out a lifetime of anti-sexist brainwashing.  Sorry.  You'll have to figure it out for yourself.  Hint: Boys and girls is diff-ernt. 
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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2007, 07:59:11 PM »
Nope... sorry, but wrong answer.

 Having two different sets of "rules" just won't work there. The only difference between a female teacher seducing a male student, and a male teacher seducing a female student, is the male student is taught by society to think that what happened was "cool", or "lucky". A male student, in this situation, is looked down on by society if they complain about their abuse, thereby keeping them from receiving help they might need (as from a coucilor)...

 You're promoting moral equivalency there, fistful... and that dog won't hunt.

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2007, 09:28:47 PM »
Quote
Enlighten you?  I can't straighten out a lifetime of anti-sexist brainwashing.  Sorry.  You'll have to figure it out for yourself.  Hint: Boys and girls is diff-ernt.
Quote
Shouldn't there be two different standards, when we're talking about two very different sexes?
Great idea.  Historically, relationships, including those sanctioned by religion, have paired older guys with younger (sometimes just-past-menarche) girls.  Women "raping" boys, however, should be an offense because that's sociologically rare and thus abnormal.  Men "raping" girls has been more common, so why should we bother with legislation?

Not to mention that some states make explicit exceptions for statutory rape, or even child abuse laws, as long as the girl is married with her parents' consent.  So much for the state being neutral toward religion.  I think those statutes are all written in a gender-neutral manner, but does anyone doubt that there's a statistical gender-dependent age skew in underage marriages?

If the institution of marriage is perpetuating this horrific older-guy-marries-younger-gal phenomenon, it must be stopped!
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2007, 01:47:32 AM »
tyme, if I'm reading your sarcasm correctly, you've got my point of view backwards.  I was saying that the man-girl abuse is worse than the woman-boy abuse.  I don't favor giving either type a pass, just saying there's a difference. 

Strings, please explain how I'm promoting moral equivalence.
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jeepmor

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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2007, 01:51:50 AM »
I agree with fistful, none get a pass.  But as the saying goes, you can't rape the willing.  A boy that is taken advantage by a woman has to have an erection for the deed to be done.  This is not the case the other way around.
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Re: Is this ever true. Men automatically under suspicion now.
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2007, 03:50:37 AM »
I agree with fistful, none get a pass.  But as the saying goes, you can't rape the willing.  A boy that is taken advantage by a woman has to have an erection for the deed to be done.  This is not the case the other way around.

So, you're saying that its OK for a 40 year old woman to diddle a 10 year old boy because he gets an erection? Do you believe this would cause a 10 year old boy no harm?

At the least it would be really weird going to the prom.
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