Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: RadioFreeSeaLab on June 25, 2009, 06:02:26 PM
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http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/
That's two celebrities today.
Correction, maybe dead. LA Times says coma, TMZ says dead.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/06/pop-star-michael-jackson-was-rushed-to-a-hospital-this-afternoon-by-los-angeles-fire-department-paramedics--capt-steve-ruda.html
Reuters says dead http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE55O6AK20090625?sp=true
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I hope he survives. Otherwise, we'll spend the next two weeks hearing about how great he was.
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I hope he survives. Otherwise, we'll spend the next two weeks hearing about how great he was.
Might as well get it over with now.
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I'm thinking that with Farrah Fawcett dead as well, maybe that'll make the media spend only half as much time glurging about how great The Gloved One was.... Either that or instead of only half the news time spent on a celebrity, they'll spend ALL their time glurging on two dead celebrities and we won't get any news at all... (not that this is a huge departure from the norm on most mainstream media)
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Sad to hear, this. I basically grew up on a few tapes of Jackson that I played over and over. =(
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Well, LA Times has just confirmed that he was pronounced dead.
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I hope he survives. Otherwise, we'll spend the next two weeks hearing about how great he was.
Can I just be labeled a "hater" now and get it over with?
He hasn't been relevant since the 80's, he hasn't been safe to leave around kids since the 90's, and his crotch must be black and blue from the pummeling he delivers to it when he's supposed to be singing.
I love the family guy skit with MJ dancing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_gNY5UsqGE
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I hope he survives. Otherwise, we'll spend the next two weeks hearing about how great he was.
Complete with black and white photos. :rolleyes:
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Don't forget the Simpson's appearance. MJ doing the voice for a fat white delusional guy character who thought he was MJ.
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Don't forget the Simpson's appearance. MJ doing to voice for a fat white delusional guy character who thought he was MJ.
Possibly his finest work.
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BBC report here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8119951.stm
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Jackson was great.
He was one of the great entertainers/showmen of the 20th century. He could sing, he could dance, he could mesmerize audiences, and he could sell product.
Unfortunately, that greatness came wrapped in a thick coating of extreme weirdness, and probable insanity and pedophilia.
Great artists are often very tormented people.
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Oh, and just FYI...
Everyone has heard the pedophilia jokes.
No need to repeat them.
At least one has been booted already.
That's not a hint or a suggestion, either.
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i saw him when i was a kid great show i was chaperoning my lil bro to the show ended up having a great time. oddly enough the next best show i ever saw was neil diamond
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You know, the last time I remember two stars of such notoriety dying on the same day was Jim Henson and Sammy Davis, Jr., back when I was working for the newspaper.
The staff at the paper was pretty strongly divided between older people and younger people. The newstaff was almost uniformly people in their 20s.
We would call stuff like that out in the news room so people knew if we were going to pull the front page apart.
It was really interesting to see the different reactions from the people when the two deaths were called out.
The younger people knew who Sammy Davis was, but the older people were affected.
When the call for Henson went out, the older people knew who he was, but the young people on the staff, myself included? We were quite literally traumatized. We had all grown up with Sesame Street and the Muppet Show.
The ONLY time I ever saw everyone affected in pretty much the same way was when Lucille Ball died.
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I'm not disappointed. That's all I'll say.
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Oh, and just FYI...
Everyone has heard the pedophilia jokes.
No need to repeat them.
At least one has been booted already.
That's not a hint or a suggestion, either.
Does it count as a joke if I just say I'm always happy to hear about a child molester dying, regardless of if he could sing or not?
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Does it count as a joke if I just say I'm always happy to hear about a child molester dying, regardless of if he could sing or not?
Point to me where Jackson was convicted of pedophilia?
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The whole world is not a court. Balog is not sending Jackson to prison. Balog is not trying a case. Balog is free to come to the conclusion he, and many, have come to regarding Jackson's guilt; and his feelings regarding his death reflect that conclusion. As do mine in fact.
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Lack of conviction in court proves nothing. Thousands of people get away with crime every day.
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Point to me where OJ was convicted of murder.
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Mike is right, the man was extremely talented. I remember when he was just a little bitty member of the Jackson Five. I don't care much about celebrities' personal lives. In fact I don't care much about celebrities period. But MJ did some pretty decent work back in the 80's and 90's.
The ONLY time I ever saw everyone affected in pretty much the same way was when Lucille Ball died.
Probably before your time, but I was in junior high when JFK was assassinated. It affected everybody, regardless of party line or affiliation. (And you're right, Lucy was pretty much our national sweetheart back in the 1950's.)
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Point to me where OJ was convicted of murder.
Make my point for me much?
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Make my point for me much?
Ummm, what? The fact that someone can jury nullify/bribe victims families/get off on a technicality has nothing to do with their factual guilt or innocence. Don't make me waste time searching for all your posts accusin someone of things that haven't been conclusively proven in a court of law.
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If you've got links of me directly accusing someone of an act they were acquitted of, send me the links and I'll apologize.
As for the king of pop's status as a pedophile, the word alleged comes to mind. I wouldn't have let my kids hang around him.
He was certainly eccentric.
People often say that a person's true character shows in times of adversity. Often, we get a glimpse of a person's character after they've had huge success.
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Formal, public request to voluntarily modify or delete posts 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 (this one), 27 and 33.
We don't need this crap here.
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Sad to hear, this. I basically grew up on a few tapes of Jackson that I played over and over. =(
Well, if that just don't explain quite a number of things. :laugh:
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What do we need on here? This is a discussion about Michael Jackson. And like it or not, his legal troubles were a big part of his life. To not discuss it would be intellectually dishonest. Are we to assume you would prefer a "discussion" where only one side, the fluffy "he was such a big celebrity/great singer" side, is discussed? Like his music or not, that rosy view of his life is just flat out inaccurate.
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His family and friends have my condolences. I was never a big fan of his work, but today parents lost a son, children lost a father and siblings lost a brother. Whatever he may or may not have done is now between him and whatever (if anything) lies beyond death.
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To his family, friends, children and assorted other loved ones my condolences. I shall not shed any more tears for him then I will for OJ and various others who got off, but I feel for those around them none the less.
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Adios.
Not necessarily a fan of his but I echo what BrianP says.
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To not discuss it would be intellectually dishonest.
You lost me there, bro, run that by me one more time.
"We need to discuss everything we think we know about this person, or we are intellectually dishonest."
Give me a break...
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I think Farrah Fawcett was more of a major news story.
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You lost me there, bro, run that by me one more time.
"We need to discuss everything we think we know about this person, or we are intellectually dishonest."
Give me a break...
We're having a discussion about a celebrity. One forum member is actively seeking deletion of posts because they do not fit with how he would like to choose to remember Michael Jackson. Thus, suppression of that aspect of his life in order to keep the discussion cheerful would be denying a large part of the real Michael Jackson. I would like to think that APS members and moderators are mature and honest enough to not perform the internet equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting "I can't hear you!"
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OK, folks...
We can certainly discuss the fact that Jackson had several accusations of pedophilia levied against him, and was tried for that crime, and acquitted. We can also discuss the known fact that he made a rather large payoff to the family of a previous accuser.
What we CANNOT do in this thread, though, is start jumping up and down because he's dead, and because we didn't like the man and we were certain that he was a pedophile, cheering that he's now getting his eternal 'reward' for his crimes.
We're also not going to discuss semantics of law as to whether he was convicted or not and whether or not that "proves" our own pet theories about the man.
If that isn't clear to anyone, I suggest you refrain from posting in this thread entirely because I'm not going to explain the concept twice, I'm just going to get rid of the dense wood.
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What do we need on here? This is a discussion about Michael Jackson. And like it or not, his legal troubles were a big part of his life. To not discuss it would be intellectually dishonest. Are we to assume you would prefer a "discussion" where only one side, the fluffy "he was such a big celebrity/great singer" side, is discussed? Like his music or not, that rosy view of his life is just flat out inaccurate.
There is a difference between honest discourse, and grave dancing.
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Ya know, I'm gonna miss Micheal Jackson more than I will Farrah. Not because I was a fan of his work or such, but becuase he was one of the more surreal personalities in our world. His talent and ever changing visage (http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Jackson.html), his ability to poke fun at himself as he did in MIB II and living his life as HE chose made him interesting to watch.
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I'm so glad that millions upon millions of people care. Makes me feel ever so much less obligated to give a crap.
Didn't penetrate the walls of the cave, so I have no fond memories, and basically couldn't care less if I tried. I'm just steeling myself for a couple weeks of people berating me for not being appropriately sad.
I think it's kinda' pitiful that in my office, where we work exclusively for old people, and often the very old, usually impoverished and/or forgotten and/or hideously neglected and/or taken advantage of, and one secretary has the job of monitoring the obits for dead clients, people still are shocked when someone chooses to not give a crap about a celebrity death, but a dead client means that it takes ten minutes instead of twenty to close the file.
National media is handy, sometimes. Celebrity deaths ain't one of of those times.
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I'm so glad that millions upon millions of people care. Makes me feel ever so much less obligated to give a crap.
Didn't penetrate the walls of the cave, so I have no fond memories, and basically couldn't care less if I tried. I'm just steeling myself for a couple weeks of people berating me for not being appropriately sad.
I think it's kinda' pitiful that in my office, where we work exclusively for old people, and often the very old, usually impoverished and/or forgotten and/or hideously neglected and/or taken advantage of, and one secretary has the job of monitoring the obits for dead clients, people still are shocked when someone chooses to not give a crap about a celebrity death, but a dead client means that it takes ten minutes instead of twenty to close the file.
National media is handy, sometimes. Celebrity deaths ain't one of of those times.
Here, Here!!! National Ghouls.... We all die of cardiac arrest...
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What do we need on here?
What do we need on here?
Key Riced All My Tea - are you serious?
Maybe I can help lay it out for all, since it's obvious some didn't get the memo.
1. We need not speak ill of the dead. We don't do that here. The body's still warm, and some here sound like friggin' vultures on carrion.
2. We honor the title and charter of the forum, namely, Armed Polite Society.
3. We maintain civil discourse. If one can't say anything nice, how about one says nothing at all?
I don't know if there's a full moon approaching, estrogen levels are high, the recession took away one's supply of happy pills, whatever, but when I log in to the forum and the two subforums with the most activity are the staff lounge and thread Dumping Grounds, it sends a definite signal.
Here's the deal - we've already canned one long-time forum member today because he couldn't grok the whole polite discourse concept after several repeated warnings. Others are on a very short list, and that was before this thread. If we can't maintain some sense of decorum here at APS, then we're no better than Democratic Underground or ARFCOM, and have no business being online. I'd prefer not to ban folks, and I'd prefer not to have to remind others that foot-in-mouth disease can indeed be terminal to their user accounts.
The staff here at APS is trying keep a certain level of quality in the place. That's pretty hard to do when one sees stuff like what was regurgitated in the Michael Jackson thread. The guy died, and some folks here don't like him. I get it, thank you very much.
However, there's no value added in throwing the whole alleged pedophilia angle into the discussion, and posturing about how his demise made you happy. That would be akin to my saying, "I have absolutely no intention of attending TaurusOwner's funeral, because I hate standing in line with others just to piss on the grave of an (alleged) wombat felcher!"
Sure, I get instant gratification for getting that off my chest, but that's about it. There's no value added to the thread, and now we've thrown in stuff that discredits TaurusOwner's good name, and adds additional insight, desired or otherwise, into both his character and mine. Not a lot of respect shown for the dead there on a very public forum that prides itself on polite discourse, nicht wahr? TaurusOwner may have a talent that overshadows anybody else here at APS, but if I throw in the spectre of his Habitrail vice in an effort to shoot him down, what have I become?
I grew up listening to the Jackson Five and Michael Jackson, and I agree he was a talented performer. He was eccentric, but that's sometimes synonymous with the genre. I liked Freddie Mercury and Queen a lot, and to say he was eccentric would probably be an understatement. I think Elton John is a musical genius, and nobody disputes his eccentricities. I'm not waiting for Elton to die just so I can be a faceless person hopping on an internet forum to say, "Good riddance!"
Requiescat In Pacem, Michael.
Disclaimer: No wombats were harmed in the composition of this posting. Habitrail is a registered trademark of the Hagen Corporation, all rights reserved.
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So, to steer this in another direction:
What will his musical legacy be?
I mean he was hugely popular in the '80s and still has a huge following now, but as years go by will his music stay popular and influence artists or will his work just fade away?
Did he change popular music, make it something it wasn't and push it in a new direction, or was he just the biggest artist of his time. There's a difference and I'm wondering how others see it.
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I think he will be remembered for his style and dance more then his music, some people gather in large groups to do that thrilla dance.
I'll remember early J5 stuff and how difficult it was to compete for girls attention when their hearts/minds were on "I'll be there"
by the 70's I was into serious music, like Pink Floyd, disco was something to be avoided
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So, to steer this in another direction:
What will his musical legacy be?
I mean he was hugely popular in the '80s and still has a huge following now, but as years go by will his music stay popular and influence artists or will his work just fade away?
Did he change popular music, make it something it wasn't and push it in a new direction, or was he just the biggest artist of his time. There's a difference and I'm wondering how others see it.
On that note, I'm not sure. Pop music is usually not written by the "artists" who perform it, but Jackson was famous for (among other things) for doing so. The "cultural icon" aspect is certainly cemented.
Biggest thing I see is that Weird Al Yankovic lost a major source of inspiration. :|
I think he will be remembered for his style and dance more then his music, some people gather in large groups to do that thrilla dance.
I'll remember early J5 stuff and how difficult it was to compete for girls attention when their hearts/minds were on "I'll be there"
by the 70's I was into serious music, like Pink Floyd, disco was something to be avoided
Actually, when he was part of the Five, the music-writing and arrangements were handled almost exclusively by Motown. The choreography (Five and afterward) was usually planned by an outside party, too.
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IIRC, one of the reasons he was acquitted was because the mother of the "molested" boy appeared to be very much interested in the financial rewards such would bring. I think she had some criminal activity in her past. Pedophile? Honestly, I don't know. He certainly appeared to one of the most interesting non-schizophrenics on the planet.
BTW, didn't he make arrangements to be cryogenically stored at death? I can't remember if it was all of him or just his head.
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I think she had some criminal activity in her past.
She claimed some employees at J.C. Penneys [sp?] molested her, too. They settled out of court for $157,000. She also pled the Fifth during the Jackson trial regarding comitting welfare fraud. Her husband accused her of coaching the children to lie on numerous occasions, and she generally wasn't a good witness.
BTW, didn't he make arrangements to be cryogenically stored at death?
I do believe he did.
That said, cryogenical storage has to be commenced ASAP after you're legally dead. There's a time limit after which your brain starts to deteriorate and it is pointless to freeze you because the data that your head holds has degraded away. This concept is known as information-theoretic death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information-theoretic_death) in the cryonics community. Considering that an autopsy will have to be done on Mr. Jackson, I do not believe that it will be complete in time for them to perform the perfusion and other processes needed for cryonics. By the time they're done Mr. Jackson will be... even more dead than he is right now.
This is a major issue for cryonicists, actually, as they lose a huge proportion of their patients because people just do not get them to the facilities in time, either through lack of knowledge, or often through lack of desire or maliciousness.
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I don't think there's any doubt that Jackson's musical legacy is going to be felt for a LONG time to come.
He really ushered in the age of the multimedia music superstar.
There are a lot of critics and industry insiders who credit the Thriller video for cementing MTV and videos as an absolute necessity to the success of a song/artist. Jackson and his producer (can't remember the guy's name) like no one else did at that time that understood exactly what music videos could be. After Thriller hit the airwaves, subscriptions to MTV took a significant spike upwards, and kept going up.
Jackson's music also is credited with breaking the "color barrier' that MTV erected in its early years. Almost no black artists were included - it was safe, middle of the road easy listening pop like the Buggles. It took the growing success of Billie Jean and a threat by Jackson's record label to pull ALL of their artists, not just the black ones, from MTV's play list, to get MTV to come around.
When you get down to it, there were very few stage performers like Jackson, and certainly none with the incredibly complex choreography blended with a wall of light and sound. You can see others performers imitate Jackson's dance moves all the time, while still more have embraced, to varying degrees of success, the on-stage carnival of light, sound, and motion. Garth Brooks is a good example of that.
Back in 1987 my girlfriend at the time and I went to see a Howard Jones concert. He was pretty big at the time and had a really good stage show. Afterwards she said the stage show was "Michael Jackson light."
To this day I'm still not sure if it was a compliment or a not, but the fact is that a LOT of performers really ramped up their stage shows after Jackson hit.
I keep wondering who influenced Jackson, though, and I keep coming back to two acts -- Jackie Wilson and Queen/Freddie Mercury.
Wilson and Mercury were both incredibly energetic performers on stage, and through the late 1970s into the 1980s Queen was creating visual stage shows of kind no one else was doing. No one ever talks about who influenced Jackson, but I think those were big for him.
The guy is in the R&R hall of fame twice (Jackson 5 and solo), he's in the Songwriters Hall of Fame, and he won almost 200 major music awards.
I'm confident in saying that you're going to be seeing his influence for a LONG time to come.
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After hearing the news of Jackson's death, I can't help but think about the parallels b/t him and Elvis Presley....both great entertainers for several decades....both ending up with troubled personal lives and self-destructive behaviors....and both dying young and tragically....
Personally, I'm praying for comfort for the family now instead of dwelling on the faults of Jackson....after all, Elvis was pretty well a brain-dead doper when he passed....doesn't mean I don't appreciate both artists' works....or mourn for their souls....
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I went to see a Howard Jones concert. He was pretty big at the time
That name rings no bells at all with me. The world's glory is fleeting.
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He's not dead, he's just gone to hang out at that place where Jack, Elvis and Jim are until they all make their triumphant returns together. It'll be a great show! =D
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In the late 70's early 80's i tried my damndest to stay away from disco-pop. I was a card carrying member of DREAD- Detroit Rockers Engaged in the Abolition of Disco. I could not, however, escape the influence of the gloved ones. Throughout my blue-jeaned and black tee-shirted adolescense I was accused by the members-only and parachute pant wearing masses as a throwback, a burn-out (my drug-free status notwithstanding), a longhair - coming home from class drinking coffee and cranking up the Elvis (Costello) Neil Young or Zeppelin on my dad's Hi-Fi, opting out of the HighSchool dances.
Many loved and fawned over his presence, I did not. His passing is part of nature, neither happy nor sad. Had nature been allowed it's course, he may still be alive. The Hostess Twinkee is popular, but that says nothing of it's food value.
Jackson's legacy may be wide, but to my musical tastes, it's not deep. Jackie Wilson an Queen have been mentioned, formidable in their own right, but in my eyes, (Post Thriller) he was more akin to a wax museum Liberace on a hot day.
If I could attribute any positive personal thing to his music or legacy, it may have greased the skids for the influx of techno or post-punk e.g. Joy Division/New Order, Talking Heads etc - but even then, in the mid eighties, after half of the 90 million 109 million copies of Thriller found their way into the trash bin, I still preferred rock.
RIP Michael, you'll be missed.
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I remember havign the 'Thriller' LP when I was a kid. Played it every day.
Gotta wonder about the idea of great artists signing a deal with the devil- there have been many that have reached the pinnacle of fame, but were tormented in life and often died young or under odd circumstances.
At least MJ died of normal natural causes. He had a lot of baggage in his life to taint his reputation without dying on the toilet or with a belt around his neck to be that would surely make him the punchline of jokes for the next 30 years.
RIP MJ.
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Can I just be labeled a "hater" now and get it over with?
He hasn't been relevant since the 80's, he hasn't been safe to leave around kids since the 90's, and his crotch must be black and blue from the pummeling he delivers to it when he's supposed to be singing.
I love the family guy skit with MJ dancing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_gNY5UsqGE
I heard some lawyer on TV this morning talking about what a great guy he was and how he had been wronged by the pedophilia accusations.
I about puked. IMO, if it had been someone without money who did the same things that person would have died in jail.
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For a long time, I have thought of Michael Jackson as one of the original poster children for why it's a terrible, terrible thing for kids to become famous.
It's not unlikely that his descent into...strange behavior...is a direct result of the pressure that a high-profile public lifestyle put on him as a kid, and which continued as his individual success grew.
He walked a sad path (especially toward the end), and likely it was a lonely one for much of his life, for all that there were sycophants all around him.
I was not particularly fond of his music, and I have no particular regard for him as a person (I don't know if the pedophilia accusations are true. If they are, then he has some retribution to make, hereafter. If they're not, well, he was undisputably strange, but that is not a crime; it's just more evidence of the sad path his fame took him down). In any event, I hope his finds whatever peace with himself that he can.
-BP
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I'm barely older than Michael Jackson was, so I've heard his unimpressive "music" and I've seen his music videos with the crotch-grabbing and dancing zombies.
This is what passes for "Talent" these days? What's next, some guy dropping trou and burping into the mike?
As he got older, his increasingly bizarre behavior really crossed the line from "eccentric" to "downright creepy" . . . not the sort of person I'd want for a neighbor.
I don't take any joy in his passing, but I fail to see the reason for the near-hysterical "reporting" of his demise, especially on channels like Fox News, which became the "All Michael Jackson, All The Time" channel last night, pre-empting all regular programming. (Of course, Fox does tend to take minor stories and blow them all out of proportion - Kobe Bryant, OJ, Jon-Benet Ramsey, Scott Peterson, etc.)
I also wonder about the absolute insistence by some of the talking heads that his passing was due entirely to "natural causes" . . .
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For a long time, I have thought of Michael Jackson as one of the original poster children for why it's a terrible, terrible thing for kids to become famous.
This. I know the money is tempting and all, but having your child be an actor/singer/whatever is damn near abuse in my mind.
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What will his musical legacy be?
Considering the fact that his actual talented years pale in the shadow of the 18 years that he was constantly accused of pedophilia from numerous unrelated sources...
Considering the fact that his current fanbase is more wacko than the weirdest of Queensryche groupies and hopechangist Obama supporters ("la la la I can't hear you no he didn't do anything wrong he's Michael Jackson he's the prince of pop la la la")...
... Then his musical legacy will be what the MSM decides for us. ;/
With full disclosure, I was about 7 years old when he hit his peak popularity with Billy Jean, Thriller, Beat It and such. I loved those songs. But as much as I loved those, I didn't care for anything from the Jackson Five era, and all his stuff following was weak. Frankly, I consider him a very dated artist that was more than a 1 hit wonder, but less than a musical genius. He contributed more to stagecraft than he did to music, IMO.
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This. I know the money is tempting and all, but having your child be an actor/singer/whatever is damn near abuse in my mind.
With the above modification, I agree. :)
I seem to recall that we have child-labor laws for a reason. How do shows like the abominable John & Kate +8 not fall under the rules of child exploitation?
-BP
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With the above modification, I agree. :)
I seem to recall that we have child-labor laws for a reason. How do shows like the abominable John & Kate +8 not fall under the rules of child exploitation?
-BP
=) I was thinking of babies in commercials, actually. I doubt the Gerber baby will let it ruin his life. But yeah, aside from that.... Oh, and anyone who puts their kid in one of those "beauty pageants" needs to be scourged. "I'm going to live out my fantasies by making my kid an exhibit at the pedophile zoo." I really hate those bastards.
As for the Jon & Kate kind of shows, I'm actually torn. Documentaries frequently do the same thing, albeit for different reasons. I'd hate to see the laws that'd spring up around trying to clamp down on letting people film you.
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I guess it's not a good thing to let folks here know I'm a big Queensryche fan? =|
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I'm barely older than Michael Jackson was, so I've heard his unimpressive "music" and I've seen his music videos with the crotch-grabbing and dancing zombies.
This is what passes for "Talent" these days? What's next, some guy dropping trou and burping into the mike?
As he got older, his increasingly bizarre behavior really crossed the line from "eccentric" to "downright creepy" . . . not the sort of person I'd want for a neighbor.
Here you go:
Allin is best remembered for his notorious live performances that typically featured wildly transgressive acts such as Allin defecating and urinating onstage, rolling in feces and often consuming excrement, committing self-injury, performing naked, and committing violent actions toward the audience—often doing many of these things simultaneously.
...By this point, Allin's performances, which often resulted in considerable damage to venues and sound equipment, were regularly stopped after only a few songs by police or venue owners. Allin was charged with assault and battery or indecent exposure a number of times. His constant touring was only stopped by jail time or by long hospital stays for broken bones, blood poisoning, and other physical trauma.
...Allin stated, "With GG, you don't get what you expect—you get what you deserve."[9]
MJ might have handled the family jewels as part of his choreography, but he can't hold a candle to Allin.
Also, Allin brings to mind some very Ghallager-esque problems.
I guess it's not a good thing to let folks here know I'm a big Queensryche fan? =|
Saw them twice, once at the Bayfront Center in St Pete in their heyday and once at the late & lamented Bronco Bowl in mid cities DFW, in the early 2000s.
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I guess it's not a good thing to let folks here know I'm a big Queensryche fan? =|
I like Queensryche.... but the fanbase weirds me out.
Part of it is I feel EXTREMELY out of place since most of their fans are about 15-20 years older than me. And part of it is... they tend to be odd ducks. Moreso than most people.
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I guess it's not a good thing to let folks here know I'm a big Queensryche fan? =|
What's your point?
Chris
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That you can find weirdos in pretty much every demographic if you look hard enough...
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I never considered Queensryche weird though.
Chris
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I wasn't saying Weirdness(Queensryche_fan) = Weirdness(Michael_Jackson_Fan).
I was saying that in my experience Queensryche fans are somewhat odd, while MJ fans are extremely odd.
And by "fan" I mean a member of the fan club, owner of multiple concert T-shirts, intimately familiar with all potential upcoming tour dates... one of my best friends in college was president of the Queensryche fan club for a couple years. She was odd too.
So it's OK to be odd or weird, G98: You can still be my friend. =D
And even if you just like Queensryche and aren't really a "fan" in the sense I described, it's still OK. :lol:
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<deleted due to implied threat from mod even though I very carefully chose my words>
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Well, you can do that to your heart's content, Ilbob...
SOMEWHERE ELSE.
You want to do it here? That's tough.
You may wish to read this again:
"We can certainly discuss the fact that Jackson had several accusations of pedophilia levied against him, and was tried for that crime, and acquitted. We can also discuss the known fact that he made a rather large payoff to the family of a previous accuser.
What we CANNOT do in this thread, though, is start jumping up and down because he's dead, and because we didn't like the man and we were certain that he was a pedophile, cheering that he's now getting his eternal 'reward' for his crimes.
We're also not going to discuss semantics of law as to whether he was convicted or not and whether or not that "proves" our own pet theories about the man.
If that isn't clear to anyone, I suggest you refrain from posting in this thread entirely because I'm not going to explain the concept twice, I'm just going to get rid of the dense wood."
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Ok I know that I am being lazy by copy-pasting from Wiki (which isn't always trustworthy anyway), but what the heck.
From a young age Jackson was physically and emotionally abused by his father, enduring incessant rehearsals, whippings and name-calling. Jackson's abuse as a child affected him throughout his grown life.[10] In one altercation — later recalled by Marlon Jackson — Joseph held Michael upside down by one leg and "pummeled him over and over again with his hand, hitting him on his back and buttocks".[11] Joseph would often trip up, or push the male children into walls.[11] One night while Jackson was asleep, Joseph climbed into his room through the bedroom window. Wearing a fright mask, he entered the room screaming and shouting. Joseph said he wanted to teach his children not to leave the window open when they went to sleep. For years afterwards, Jackson suffered nightmares about being kidnapped from his bedroom.[11]
Jackson first spoke openly about his childhood abuse in a 1993 interview with Oprah Winfrey. He said that during his childhood he often cried from loneliness and would sometimes get sick or start to vomit upon seeing his father.[12][13][14][15] In Jackson's other high profile interview, Living with Michael Jackson (2003), the singer covered his face with his hand and began crying when talking about his childhood abuse.[11] Jackson recalled that Joseph sat in a chair with a belt in his hand as he and his siblings rehearsed and that "if you didn't do it the right way, he would tear you up, really get you."[16]
Also:
Jackson's skin was a medium-brown color for the entire duration of his youth, but starting in the early 1980s, his skin gradually grew paler. This change gained widespread media coverage, including rumors that Jackson was bleaching his skin.[12] In the mid-1980s, Jackson was diagnosed with vitiligo and lupus; the latter was in remission in Jackson's case, and both illnesses made him sensitive to sunlight. The treatments he used for his condition further lightened his skin tone, and, with the application of pancake makeup to even out blotches, he could appear very pale.[54] The structure of his face changed as well; several surgeons have speculated that Jackson had undergone multiple nasal surgeries, a forehead lift, thinned lips and a cheekbone surgery.[55] Changes to his face were, in part, due to periods of significant weight loss.[21] Jackson lost weight in the early 1980s because of a change in diet and a desire for "a dancer's body".[56] Witnesses reported that Jackson was often dizzy and speculated that he was suffering from anorexia nervosa; periods of weight loss would become a recurring problem for the singer later in life.[57] Some medical professionals have publicly stated their belief that the singer had body dysmorphic disorder, a psychological condition whereby the sufferer has no concept of how they are perceived by others.[54]
I've never been sure one way or another whether the man was guilty or not, but he clearly was a man with problems, both emotionally and physically.
I feel the worst for his children really, things are going to change for them surely, now that MJ is dead and isn't managing their lives.
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I feel the worst for his children really, things are going to change for them surely, now that MJ is dead and isn't managing their lives.
You really believe that MJ managing their lives was good for them?
I doubt it will improve much in any case. They will always have the baggage of being his kids. But they will also have plenty of money for psychotherapy.
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I feel sorry for the kids of all celebrities.
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You really believe that MJ managing their lives was good for them?
No, and I never made such a claim.
What I should have expanded on, is that I think it is a big shake up for them. I think that he was unfit to be a father to those kids, being so child like himself, in many ways.
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"One night while Jackson was asleep, Joseph climbed into his room through the bedroom window. Wearing a fright mask, he entered the room screaming and shouting. Joseph said he wanted to teach his children not to leave the window open when they went to sleep."
Huh. Now I know where Arrested Development got the idea of the one armed man from.
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I was just looking at MJ thread on another gun forum to remain nameless.
Irwin would have a field day banning all the grave dancers. Now over 270 posts.
<add>
Thread has now mentioned Hitler. Sure to be closed. :)
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*shrug* Godwin's Law strikes again.
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I think the Godwining post has went to the land of wind and ghosts. And seriously, are some of the people on this thread trying to get banned?
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I think the Godwining post has went to the land of wind and ghosts. And seriously, are some of the people on this thread trying to get banned?
I doubt they are trying to get banned. I have a hard time caring much about celebrities in the first place, much less ones whose past behavior I found abhorrent. It is just hard for me to care that he is gone. I will not care all that much when OJ passes either.
The Hitler thing was on the other forum, not here.
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When I don't care about something, I generally don't keep posting about it.
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When I don't care about something, I generally don't keep posting about it.
Perhaps a better choice of words would have been "care for" rather than "care about".
I do not think it is safe for me to be be more explicit in my feelings about the guy.
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At least MJ died of normal natural causes.
Maybe . . . but today, Fox News was reporting that he'd had an injection recently - they were trying to find out whether it was done by himself or his live-in doctor. (The doctor's BMW was towed by police from the Jackson house.)
Demerol kept being mentioned . . .
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Demerol kept being mentioned . . .
Yep, I heard that too. They were talking about this on a local radio show this morning. The host mentioned that MJ looked awfully stoned in many of his recent appearances. Of course, you know how rumors go, so take this for what it's worth.
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This. I know the money is tempting and all, but having your child be an actor/singer/whatever is damn near abuse in my mind.
That is all (http://www.duryeapa.com/1930to1939/PA%20Duryea%201939%20Lankowski%20Leonard%20Violin%20Player.jpg).
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I also wonder about the absolute insistence by some of the talking heads that his passing was due entirely to "natural causes" . . .
Probably code for death due to drug overdose, that is commonly known amongst "the media" but which will be hushed up so Al Sharpton doesn't attack the clueless knucklehead who actually reports the truth.
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I never was a big fan of Michael Jackson, but it's hard not to acknowledge his lifetime of work and contribution to pop music/culture. That he improved the quality of life for millions around the world is a fact, whether he did anything for me or not. That's a far greater achievement than I'm likely to ever claim.
Did he do certain things he was accused of? I'll never know, but I have my doubts. If you're worth hundreds of millions (or a few billion), don't be around minors without the presence of a half-dozen credible adult witnesses. Even then, who knows when the witnesses will turn for a small piece of a settlement? Avoid people (especially those with nothing to lose) - become a recluse. Apparently, Michael learned that the hard way.
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I have nothing major to contribute to this thread. I liked Jackson's music, and I don't much care for other peoples' personal lives.
That said:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.tinypic.com%2F2qmgke0.jpg&hash=2d84fe92b4bb0b17c62917322550517612da0db9)
=D
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That you can find weirdos in pretty much every demographic if you look hard enough...
Seeing that many of us are in some type of demographic, I'd have to agree with you.... =D
That said:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.tinypic.com%2F2qmgke0.jpg&hash=2d84fe92b4bb0b17c62917322550517612da0db9)
=D
OK, now....if THAT doesn't deserve the perma-banschwerk, I don't know what does.... ;/
:laugh:
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hokay.... 6 guys stealing a body, or am i missing something?
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BigJake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7MmEMrCRfc
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Michael Jackson set to be 'plastinated' after missing the deadline for cryogenic freezing
By Daily Mail Reporter and Allan Hall
Last updated at 7:21 PM on 26th June 2009
Michael Jackson will live on as a 'plastinated' creature preserved by controversial German doctor Gunther von Hagens after missing the deadline for cryogenic freezing.
It was widely believed that the singer, who died yesterday from a heart attack, was interested in having his body frozen in the hope he could later be brought back to life.
However, it is now likely to be too late for his wish to be granted as the freezing process - cryonics - must be initiated almost immediately after death but an autopsy on Jackson's body still needs to be carried out.
Von Hagens, who has caused widespread controversy with his practice of preserving corpses with polyurethane, today declared: 'An agreement is in place to plastinate the King of Pop.'
Von Hagens said that he spoke with representatives of the Jackson family 'many months ago' and it was agreed that his body will be plastinated and placed next to Bubbles, his late pet monkey who was also plastinated a number of years ago and is currently exhibited at The Body Worlds & Mirror Of Time exhibition at the O2 in London.
Refuted by everyone from the pope to the chief rabbi in Israel, 'plastination' is when corpses are embalmed with preserving polyurethane and frozen forever.
In contrast, cryonics is the cooling of legally dead people to liquid nitrogen temperature where physical decay essentially stops, with the idea that technology developed in the future will be able to revive them.
No-one has ever been revived using this process although it is a popular subject in science fiction films such as Forever Young featuring Mel Gibson.
Despite this, cryogenic freezing has become more popular over time.
Media mogul Simon Cowell caused headlines recently after he said that he wanted to undergo the process.
'Medical science is bound to work out a way of bringing us back to life in the next century or so, and I want to be available when they do,' he said.
Speaking of Michael's final requests, Dr von Hagens also confirmed that he wanted to be reunited with Bubbles.
'There is no better place than to do this at the venue where Jackson was due to perform his world record 50-date tour,' said a spokesman for von Hagens.
He added: 'Whilst von Hagens is keen to keep the pose of the superstar's plastinate under wraps, he hinted that the moonwalk position would naturally be favoured.
'It is hoped the exhibit will be unveiled towards the end of July for all fans to visit and pay their respects.'
Cryogenic freezing is offered in America by the Alcor Life Extension Foundation and Cryonics Institute.
Between them, they currently have 178 frozen patients and 1,000 members signed up to the scheme.
How cryonics works
The medical process is a complicated one. Immediately after a cryonic patient's death certificate is signed by a doctor, a cryonics team restores the heartbeat and respiration using a machine to help keep cells in organs and tissues alive.
The patient's body is then cooled from body temperature (37C) to 10C as quickly as possible using ice.
Mel Gibson
Mel Gibson played a character from the 1930s who was frozen for 60 years in the 1992 film Forever Young
Medication is added to their bloodstream to help preserve the body.
Blood is then removed from the body and replaced with a saline-like solution that stops the shrinking or swelling of cells and tissues.
Anti-freeze agents are added to the blood vessels and the body is placed in a special cooling box where it is cooled to between -120C and -196C and stored away.
However, for this process to have any chance of working, the cryonic process must be started just minutes after 'legal death' is verified by doctors.
This is because a dead person's brain will start to experience a build-up of lactic acid at room temperature. Within 24 hours it will have virtually dissolved.
So with an autopsy on Michael Jackson expected 24 hours after his death, it's already too late for the Peter Pan of pop who never wanted to grow up.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1195750/Michael-Jackson-set-plastinated-missing-deadline-cryogenic-freezing.html#
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...
No-one has ever been revived using this process although it is a popular subject in science fiction films such as Forever Young featuring Mel Gibson...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1195750/Michael-Jackson-set-plastinated-missing-deadline-cryogenic-freezing.html#
Kind of sad that this line was felt neccessary to be included in what is (ostensibly) a news article intended for a primarily adult readership.
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I have nothing major to contribute to this thread. I liked Jackson's music, and I don't much care for other peoples' personal lives.
That said:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.tinypic.com%2F2qmgke0.jpg&hash=2d84fe92b4bb0b17c62917322550517612da0db9)
=D
Actually, that is sort of a tribute, IMO.
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Technically, I understand they've revived some simpler animals. At any rate, YMMV, but I think cryonics is the way to go.
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hokay.... 6 guys stealing a body, or am i missing something?
No, they're Moonwalking the coffin to the grave.
Quite funny, actually. Took me a few seconds to get it.
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I posted something Mike liked? :O
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Plastinated? Is that even a real word? Putting your hope for future revival in a guy who's just making words up... :lol:
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As far as I understand, plastination is just a way to preserve the body's shape. Once the brain starts degrading, you're gone, gone, gone.
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Yeah, and the main problem with Cryonics is the thawing process, IIRC. The proteins break down and you turn to mush. Suffice to say, it may be a long time -if ever- that people can be frozen, thawed, and brought back to life.
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Plastinated? Is that even a real word? Putting your hope for future revival in a guy who's just making words up... :lol:
There'd be no hope for revivial after plastination. I saw the exhibit in London a few years ago, interesting stuff in the most part.
The process replaces tissue with the plastic, Hagen claims that it is good enough that structures can be studied with an electron microscope post-plastination.
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So this fellow is not claiming possible revival after "plastination?"
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Whatever happened to carbon freezing?
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So this fellow is not claiming possible revival after "plastination?"
Nope, your tissues are rendered away and replaced with plastic. It is done for display and study purposes, although with von Hagen it's also about taking a controversial show all around the world and making lots of money. Imagine the revenues if he had Jacksons plastinated corpse?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.guardian.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FArts%2FArts_%2FPictures%2F2008%2F02%2F25%2Fgunther460.jpg&hash=53fb876ef833e3587999e24d19b02051d23bb83d)
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Yeah, and the main problem with Cryonics is the thawing process, IIRC. The proteins break down and you turn to mush. Suffice to say, it may be a long time -if ever- that people can be frozen, thawed, and brought back to life.
Modern cryonics doesn't freeze people at all in the usual sense.
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Oh freeze me nooottttt, in the laboratoryyyyyy.... :laugh:
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Michael is going to get a chilly reception.
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Oh freeze me nooottttt, in the laboratoryyyyyy.... :laugh:
:D
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No, they're Moonwalking the coffin to the grave.
Quite funny, actually. Took me a few seconds to get it.
Got it. Bit before my time. Still funny though, now that I understand.
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What's sad to me is that he managed to completely upstage Farrah. She may have been a lightweight, but she knew it and ran with it. And her fan base was far less creepy.
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Modern cryonics doesn't freeze people at all in the usual sense.
Gotcha. I looked it up just now and they do indeed use a chemical to stop ice forming.
Freaky stuff.
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This dude holds the contrary opinion that post-J5 MJ wasn't all the great.
http://pajamasmedia.com/ronrosenbaum/2009/06/27/michael-jackson-wasnt-that-good-after-he-left-the-jackson-five/
Heresy: Michael Jackson Wasn’t That Good After He Left The Jackson Five
I know this is heresy, blasphemy to the gods of the publicity industrial complex who created and destroyed the later Michael Jackson.
But I’ve let a day pass since his awful death before saying this: after the completely wonderful Jackson Five era, Michael Jackson was no longer a very interesting singer, not after he left the collaborative genius of the J-5. He became known for his dancing (wow, the moonwalk, really memorable!), for his stupid costumes (what was with the whole militaristic thing? And was the glove really all that interesting or distinctive in any way?), for one or two good songs (”Human Nature” or whatever it was officially called) and “Thriller” wasn’t one of them. Come on, do you really think that novelty concoction is worth another listen ever? (Okay I liked “Billy Jean” even though I still misremember the key lyric as “the chair is not my love”)
Then after the success of his solo comeback, fueled by nostalgia and moonwalking eccentricity, he became known for being a celebrity, famous for being famous, then famous for his eccentricities. Eccentricities that were at first harmless (Bubbles the chimp, etc.), then famous for being weird (”Neverland” the boy-pals), famous for his grotesque plastic surgeries, then famous for being an accused child-molester, acquitted of criminal charges but never able to quit the children. Then he became famous for his famous associations–buying the Beatles catalog and doing that hideously sappy “The Girl is Mine”* with Paul McCartney,”marrying” Lisa Marie Presley, etc. Famous for his famously annoying sisters. Famous for anointing himself “King of Pop” when he no longer could produce a decent pop song. And yet the idiot pop media went along with it, He was the King of Trainwreck Celebrity.
But as for his music? Can you name a single post-”Thriller” song he did?
Sorry. He and the Jackson Five created something magical. “I’ll Be There” is an immortal love song, sublimely beautiful in its simplicity. I’ll remember him with gratitude for that and the rest of the J-5 hits, and try to forget the trainwreck he became.
But in the “moronic inferno” (h/t Martin Amis) of the media “mourning” let’s not forget the real tragedy, that he long ago ceased being a talent and gave in to being a mere celebrity, the sure road to ruin.
*thanks for reader correction.
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I'd have to agree:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QibHtM3ftQY
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While I disagree to a significant degree.
What Mr. PJs fails to recognize is how effectively Jackson fused music and visuals and in large part invented the modern music video.
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While I disagree to a significant degree.
What Mr. PJs fails to recognize is how effectively Jackson fused music and visuals and in large part invented the modern music video.
Which means he had good videos. Good videos != great music. Influential, sure. but not zomg musical genius.
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sigh.
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Deleted by poster.
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You're right, it is.
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FTR, I give MJ more credit than the guy who wrote the article. Off the Wall & Thriller were something to write home about, even for someone like myself who despises most all pop music.
Nothing after Thriller was worth a hoot, IMO.
I do not automatically equate popularity/sales with quality. If that were the case, McDonald's greaseburgers would be the best burgers on the planet.
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I never got the MJ thing. I guess his weirdness just overpowered his talent for me.
The only song I remember of his is Billie Jean, just because it is kind of unusual in several ways.
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I think GraphJam has the best summary of this issue.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphjam.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F06%2Fsong-chart-memes-michael-jackson.jpg%3Fw%3D504%26amp%3Bh%3D497&hash=9e5a1205b1152caf6e251802556cd47b2ce02993)