Author Topic: Vatican lists "new sins,"  (Read 7963 times)

lupinus

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2008, 03:56:26 PM »
BW-

This has been tame compared to a lot of what I've seen.  But the RCC has some strange practices and beliefs to be honest, nothing I and most of my fellow Lutherans would like though then for them to drop those go early church and be in fellowship again.

I still get tempted to sneak in  every now and then for a decent Mass lol.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2008, 04:46:08 PM »
I find it odd and unusual that as a Roman Catholic I come across far more people saying rude and crass things about my faith than I ever did when I was practicing Orthodox Jew. 

I don't think most of the usual, obvious antisemitic diatribe gets much traction these days.  And I'm guessing you don't hang around with (or on the same boards with) the sort of mouth-breathers that still believe that old stuff. 

Roman Catholicism, on the other hand, is a very convenient whipping-boy for everyone from liberal Christians, to liberal non-Christians, to paranoid Evangelicals, and of course everyone who generically disdains religion, organized religion, or what-have-you.  Black, white, poor, rich, barely-literate or highly-educated, it's appeal as a whipping-boy is consistent.  Along with Islam, Catholicism's history (Crusades, Inquisitions, you know the drill) offers a big, juicy example for those who wish to prove the dangers of religion, intolerance, blind obedience to authority, and so on, for leftists.  And the dangers of following the traditions of men, rather than scripture, if you're an evangelical. 

And then there's the refugees, still scarred by the ruler of Sister Mary Margaret.
 
And the other-worldliness of the trappings and rituals, not to mention teachings against contraception and such.   

And check out this comparison:

Jews don't eat pork.   
Reaction:  Ah, how cute and old-fashioned of them.

Catholics don't believe in contraception. 
Reaction:    What!!  How dare they judge me!  Let's go throw some condoms into their church! 
        Or:    Stupid Catholics!  They think there's a tiny baby in each sperm!  Ha-ha!   

And that whole pedophile priest thing. 

It's a combination of the spirit of the times, and the mistakes and sins of the Church itself.   sad
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2008, 05:17:23 PM »
I find it odd and unusual that as a Roman Catholic I come across far more people saying rude and crass things about my faith than I ever did when I was practicing Orthodox Jew.  I guess that's partly because I was more sheltered then and partly because people are starting to get a clue that anti-semitism isn't cool.  Anti-Catholic rantings however, still seem to be socially acceptable.  I guess that's ok; there's no need for all people to be a fan of all things, or pretend they are.  Nonetheless, I don't really see the point of being disrespectful just for the fun of it.

Unless of course, you write for South Park.  They get a pass on mocking everyone.  grin

Tell your church to actually do something about pedophile priests molesting people who trust them and maybe I'll stop disparaging them.
 grin
JD

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BridgeWalker

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2008, 05:19:46 PM »
I don't think most of the usual, obvious antisemitic diatribe gets much traction these days.  And I'm guessing you don't hang around with (or on the same boards with) the sort of mouth-breathers that still believe that old stuff.

I'm delighted to say that I do not. 

Quote
Roman Catholicism, on the other hand, is a very convenient whipping-boy for everyone from liberal Christians, to liberal non-Christians, to paranoid Evangelicals, and of course everyone who generically disdains religion, organized religion, or what-have-you.  Black, white, poor, rich, barely-literate or highly-educated, it's appeal as a whipping-boy is consistent.  Along with Islam, Catholicism's history (Crusades, Inquisitions, you know the drill) offers a big, juicy example for those who wish to prove the dangers of religion, intolerance, blind obedience to authority, and so on, for leftists.  And the dangers of following the traditions of men, rather than scripture, if you're an evangelical.

Of course.  The problem, of course, is that Catholicism is any more evil or intolerant or blindly obedient etc, than any other faith.  We tend to be more visible about it. I found Catholicism to be a perfect compromise between the absolute unchangeability of the law in Judaism and the shifting sands of most of American Christianity.  Well, plus Jesus.  Big bonus in picking a religion.  And Mary is not bad either. But I digress.... 

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And then there's the refugees, still scarred by the ruler of Sister Mary Margaret.

Ha! I laugh at people who found Catholic school oppressive.  I was threatened with expulsion for having been seen holding a boy's hand--off of school property and outside of school hours, when I was sixteen years old.  They don't know from oppressive.  But then I did enjoy my educational experiences, despite the heavy restrictions.

Quote
Jews don't eat pork.   
Reaction:  Ah, how cute and old-fashioned of them.

Catholics don't believe in contraception. 
Reaction:    What!!  How dare they judge me!  Let's go throw some condoms into their church! 
        Or:    Stupid Catholics!  They think there's a tiny baby in each sperm!  Ha-ha!   

Exactly.  I mention that I'm Jewish and I hear about how cool that is and how "Oh, my brother's classmate has a neighbor who is Jewish!  That's sooooo cool!!!"  I mention that I'm a Catholic and well, first I get lectured for being a bad Jew.  Seriously.  From non-Jews.  From non-observant Jews.  From pagans.  It's freaking bizarre.  Then I get to hear about how much the person's mother/sister/neighbor/co-worker/self suffered horribly in the Church and how evil priests are.

And lots of people feel free to tell me I'll get pregnant next week if I don't start using a condom.  Completely randomly.  Mention that you are Catholic, especially if you have a kid, and random people feel free to mock your presumed sexual practices.  

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And that whole pedophile priest thing.

Yeah.  That's the only part that *really* angers me about all of this.  I am a very good position to know personally that rabbis sometimes abuse the young people young under their care as well.  As to evangelical preachers and boy scout leaders and people in every other position where they will have ready access to children and the ability to cultivate respect, affection, and fear, and the opportunity to find time alone with a child.  A rabbi got to me.  A boy scout leader to a friend of mine.  Another rabbi to another friend.  The Church has the hierarchy in place that it is possible to go back and find the crimes, and the cover-ups.  The Jewish community is more decentralized.  Most of these people won't be caught in other communities.  I think the strong hierarchy makes the Church potentially safer; there will, at least for the past few years and into the future, always be someone higher up a victim can report problems too.  Not so in other communities.  

I don't mean this as an indictment against Jewish communities or boy scouts or evangelical communities, but it really bothers me that coming from the experiences that I am coming from, people look at me like I support pedophilia for having joined the Church.

/rant 

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2008, 05:20:33 PM »
new sins?! i wasn't all the way through the old list yet! thankfully i think i covered the new ones before they were made official

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2008, 05:23:53 PM »
too true bridgewalker
there is malpractice insurance for skypilots of all stripes now as a result.
i am a cradle mackerel snapper and worked for the episcopal church for a while  aka catholic lite  very educational stuff

De Selby

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2008, 05:29:10 PM »
Fistful, that's one of the best short comments on the relationship between Catholicism and other christians I've seen.  I agree with that analysis, and this is to be emphasized:

Quote
It's a combination of the spirit of the times, and the mistakes and sins of the Church itself.    

True enough for all our religious folk these days, I imagine.
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MechAg94

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2008, 06:23:00 PM »
Hell, most of that stuff is just surface crap.  I don't care.  I have some fundamental disagreements with some common Catholic doctrine, but it is just disagreement.  I don't think I have ever chastised anyone for it.  Some of my best friends have been Catholic.  Cheesy

A lot of that surface crap is just part of being a rich and powerful bureaucracy.  There are bound to be problems. 
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2008, 07:32:57 PM »
Some of my best friends have been Catholic. 


but ould you l your sister marry one of us? laugh grin

Perd Hapley

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2008, 01:59:57 AM »
Fistful, that's one of the best short comments on the relationship between Catholicism and other christians I've seen. 


Thanks.  I honestly don't know why I sat down and wrote all that.   shocked
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2008, 02:59:36 AM »
Quote
The Church has the hierarchy in place that it is possible to go back and find the crimes, and the cover-ups.

You said it for yourself!
Other religions don't have a secret closed door system for covering it up.  Yours has been moving problematic priests around for years, just to make sure that they spread that suffering around!
JD

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2008, 03:58:29 AM »
Quote
The Church has the hierarchy in place that it is possible to go back and find the crimes, and the cover-ups.

You said it for yourself!
Other religions don't have a secret closed door system for covering it up.  Yours has been moving problematic priests around for years, just to make sure that they spread that suffering around!

you would be mistaken

Other religions don't have a secret closed door system for covering it up.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2008, 04:06:53 AM »
Quote
The Church has the hierarchy in place that it is possible to go back and find the crimes, and the cover-ups.

You said it for yourself!
Other religions don't have a secret closed door system for covering it up.  Yours has been moving problematic priests around for years, just to make sure that they spread that suffering around!

you would be mistaken

Other religions don't have a secret closed door system for covering it up.

Most don't.  They don't directly answer to thier parent organization the way a catholic church does.
There are a few that do.  I can think of one that is even tighter wound than the catholic church, that would be Mormons.  But thier 'priests' (Bishops they call 'em) are usually married.  Wouldn't surprise me if they were covering up indiscretions of pedophilia, too. 
If, as a whole, the catholic church had said they would turn over any evidence of phedophila and not try and protect priests engaged in it, I'd be singing thier praises.  Nope, don't recall ever hearing that statement. 
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2008, 04:26:01 AM »
you brought it up  and bearing in mind i like the mormon church their history in this area is rather spectacular. and in the case of jeffers types in stitutionalized and not just amongs the higherups but through out the membeship. and i can assure you ass someone who worked for the another big church church at an administrative headquarters they had the same issues. working there actulaay helped me become comfortable as a catholic again. it helped me see it as a people problem rather than an institutional one. i think the church would be wise to rethink allowing priests to marry. it might alleviate several problems at once.  don't expect it in my lifetime though

Jamisjockey

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2008, 05:09:38 AM »
Warren Jeffs wasn't a part of the Mormon church.  He was part of a polygamist sect that had renounced the mainstream mormon church decades ago.  There are numerous sects scattered around the west.  They mostly peeled away when the church denounced polygamy.
I despise the church and am one of the last people to defend them, but to compare the deeds of a separatist sect to the church is wrong. 
Public cases of Mormon bishops abusing children are fairly rare.  The church could easily cover it up, especially out west where thier numbers are much greater than anywhere else.  Hell in Salt Lake they even own a TV station, newspaper, and about 1/2 of downtown. 
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2008, 05:23:36 AM »
pretty big sect though and the complicity extends all the way to the ground floor.   don't misunderstand i don't/can't defend whats was done in the catholic church. and likely i know more cases than you do. i was driven to hate it for years. but you'd be mistaken if you think its not in the other churches. the cathoic church makes for deeper pockets which motivates the bottom feeders. they get wood at the term class action.  to quote the lawyer who took one of the first big cases(and he was a catholic by the way) "i knew the catholic church would pay off like a slot machine".cajun lawyer wrote a scary book.when its a smaller church there is at best a minimal payoff and often nothing happens at all   folks just wanna put it behind them

Jamisjockey

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2008, 05:35:38 AM »
pretty big sect though and the complicity extends all the way to the ground floor.   don't misunderstand i don't/can't defend whats was done in the catholic church. and likely i know more cases than you do. i was driven to hate it for years. but you'd be mistaken if you think its not in the other churches. the cathoic church makes for deeper pockets which motivates the bottom feeders. they get wood at the term class action.  to quote the lawyer who took one of the first big cases(and he was a catholic by the way) "i knew the catholic church would pay off like a slot machine".cajun lawyer wrote a scary book.when its a smaller church there is at best a minimal payoff and often nothing happens at all   folks just wanna put it behind them

There are no ties between the FLDS and the LDS churchs.  Sorry but you're mistaken.  And the Mormon church has very, very deep pockets.  If someone had them caught red handed covering up sex crimes amongst the clergy....they could be set for life.
And I don't hate the catholic church.  I just don't pull punches when it comes to institutionalized pedophilia cover-ups.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2008, 05:51:26 AM »
i think the fact that the mormons, amongst others, allow a more normal healthy lifestyle for clergy helps a lot. plus sadly becoming a preist is one place for a gay person to hide who isn't able/willing to come out. the brother who was a lil odd became a priest. it creates a disproportionate demographic. and not just in the catholic church. i saw similar in the episcopal church.
i think one other really bad factor was the fact that unlike myself ( of the strong rope long drop school of therapy) too many of the church official are forgiving. as well as stupid sometimes.  the priest in lousiana got shuffled 8 or 9 times, and amongst his positions was chaplin to the boyscouts.   while a part of me understands the concept of these beinf sick folks who need help and i admire those who can follow that thinking. my idea of help is something travelling a couple thousand feet per second. merciful is a good shot. i'm probably not a good catholic. ce la vie


and lastly they are hamstrung by their own rules  the confessional is inviolate. so the pervs "confess" as a get outa jail free card" it hamstrings their confessor as to what he can reveal

Jamisjockey

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2008, 07:48:28 AM »
Those are things I can certainly agree with!
JD

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2008, 07:53:04 AM »
i can guess which parts you like

BridgeWalker

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2008, 08:08:09 AM »
I tried posting this a couple hours ago, before I went out for some errands, and it didn't take.  Trying again.

Quote
Other religions don't have a secret closed door system for covering it up.

They either have a system that could be used for remedying it or covering it up, or they have minimal oversight and the perpetrators get away with it.  If you think other religions don't cover it up, google "Baruch Lanner" and "Orthodox Union" or "NCSY" sometime.  I happen to very aware of that case because a friend knew Lanner and was distraught when the news broke.  I happened to be her roommate at the time, so I heard all about it.  

Typically the victim, if they try to report, are either accused of lying, or warned that revealing it wouldn't do any good and to keep quiet.  Btdt.

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Yours has been moving problematic priests around for years, just to make sure that they spread that suffering around! in misguided attempts to alleviate the problem.

Fixed it for ya!

Incidentally this is the response of about every other religious organization that has this problem.  Promotions were a common response; move them up to administration, out of daily activities with kids.  This rarely worked, and had the negative consequence of teaching  kids that they couldn't report it

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But thier 'priests' (Bishops they call 'em) are usually married.  Wouldn't surprise me if they were covering up indiscretions of pedophilia, too.

Married men perfectly capable of sexually abusing children.  Trust me on this.  

Quote
If, as a whole, the catholic church had said they would turn over any evidence of phedophila and not try and protect priests engaged in it, I'd be singing thier praises.  Nope, don't recall ever hearing that statement.

Put a sign out in you yard that anyone who appears out of the blue and attempts to sue you for every penny you own will have your complete cooperation and that you will provide any evidence necessary for them to be successful.    

Cannot happen.  Partly because the Church has financial obligations to meet, and some of those are for little things like vast networks of schools and charities.  The Church has made large settlements in many cases.  It has provided remedial training for its employees in spotting and reporting and ending sexual abuse.  It has started better educating its kids on how to report problems.  It has ended active recruiting of gay men for the priesthood, which it has legitimate reasons to see as contributing to some of the problems.  

But I don't think that's really the problem.  I think people enjoy being indignant, and the Catholic Church is an easy target.  But I do know that of the three rabbis I know to have sexually abused children, only one was ever removed from his position.  Only one ever became public.  The victims of the others were told to go away.  No response, other than sticking heads in sand.

Again, no indictment of Jewish communities.  They don't have as much of the centralization and resources that make a major reform effort possible.  They are also much, much smaller, and so there is little possibility of the vast media and public outcry that can prompt major change.  All this doesn't excuse it.  Those criminals are still part of their communities and families.  The victims are sort of left to fend.



Jamisjockey

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2008, 08:16:42 AM »
Therein lies the problem!
If Joe Schmo molested your child, would you go to his employer or to the police?
Going to the church to report the problem is a mistake on anyone of any religions part.
As for the married men comment, I'm playing dimestore psychologist:  Repressing the sexuality of an adult male cannot be a good thing.  I know they go into the clergy willingly, and can leave at any time.  But I feel it encourages the behavior. 
JD

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2008, 08:22:40 AM »
it would depend on which you saw as the higher authority. in my case neither  i would be more inclined to go to god directly in a very old testament kinda way.   i know an old country boy who had a grand daughter molested in the early 80's  took it awful calm and quiet. folks were surprised  i was worried. darndest thing his daughter b/f never came home from work about 6 months later  left car at the bar  clothes at home  took no money . just vanished. i asked   he never answered  i quit asking  just glad he didn't ask for help.
i try toi be all forgiving but as merciful as i can get is the same kinda feeling i get towards a rabid animal  its not personal and try to put it down quick minimize damage

BridgeWalker

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Re: Vatican lists "new sins,"
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2008, 08:34:34 AM »
Therein lies the problem!
If Joe Schmo molested your child, would you go to his employer or to the police?

Children don't really have access to the police.  What we are all fighting, in every church, in every synagogue, in every mosque, in every school, in every youth group, on every team, is the old, old belief that such things don't happen to nice kids, that it's best to keep things quiet, that it's unspeakable.  Kids would report to parents and parents would do nothing because nice people don't talk about sexual abuse. 

Part of the reason the abuse in the Church has become so public is not only its size but also that it is a much more open community.  In a community that has a strong tradition of shunning (partially or full) dissenters, it is much more difficult for people to make these allegations, to make them openly, and for resolution to be reached.  LDS has a much, much stronger tradition of shunning that the Catholic Church, and it has persisted to the present day far, far more.  The Orthodox Jewish community also has a fairly strong tradition of rejecting informers and dissenters.  Both are much tighter communities where people have less physical and emotional access to the outside. 

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As for the married men comment, I'm playing dimestore psychologist:  Repressing the sexuality of an adult male cannot be a good thing.  I know they go into the clergy willingly, and can leave at any time.  But I feel it encourages the behavior. 

That's nice.  Think whatever you want.  But married men engage in abusive behavior all the time.  I have witnessed it and I have experienced it.  Having ready access to marital sex does not turn an abusive person into a great guy.