Very cool and depressing article on aerospace forges

[zahc]

http://boingboing.net/2012/02/13/machines.html


Scroll down to the picture of the man standing next to the big gear. I can't figure out, I just can't in my brain figure out how they make stuff that big. Or maybe I should say MADE stuff that big. It looks like, surprise, China will be making the world's forged megaparts in the future.

Mesta could mold, cast, forge, machine and field-test huge components under one roof — literally — a full-service shop of the sort that no longer exists in the U.S. The company went under in the mid-1980s.

Here's a link to an original brochure with lots of pictures-

http://www.archive.org/stream/plantproductofme00mest#page/26/mode/2up

[brimic]

Yes its depressing.
We gave up our industrial might so that we could pay for a permanent dependent calss of people.
What a wonderful trade.

[makattak]

Yes its depressing.
We gave up our industrial might so that we could pay for a permanent dependent calss of people.
What a wonderful trade.

As I have noted many times, the United States (excepting the current recessionary effects) produces more manufactured goods than it ever has in its history, just as it produces more food than ever before.

We do this with fewer people in manufacturing and very likely have driven some manufacturing away because it is just too "unsafe" *(edit: and "dirty"). (The net result of the myraid of regulations for hire and working conditions and other requirements that make it much cheaper to use unskilled foreign labor rather than skilled domestic labor.)

Our welfare spending is completely seperate from our government driving industry from our shores. Yet despite that, we still manage to produce more than ever before.

[Hawkmoon]

Our welfare spending is completely seperate from our government driving industry from our shores. Yet despite that, we still manage to produce more than ever before.

But what do we produce? If we produce more than we ever have, I want to know what it is and where it is, because I can't find any of it.

[makattak]

But what do we produce? If we produce more than we ever have, I want to know what it is and where it is, because I can't find any of it.

Well, judging from this map:

http://www.nam.org/~/media/B4FAD5ECE6734700860CB6F340E55E69/Manufacturings_Share_of_Gross_State_Product.pdf

It looks like a lot of it is in the midwest (especially Indiana), the south and Oregon.

What do we make? Automobiles, Airplanes, heavy equipment, machinery, etc...

Here's a chart with a breakdown of categories at least:

http://www.census.gov/manufacturing/m3/adv/pdf/table1a.pdf

Basically, Americans tend to produce LARGE capital goods. Not exclusively, of course, but my guess is that in order for the benefits of using skilled labor to outweigh the costs of doing business in this country, the good produced must be fairly complex. 

[MicroBalrog]

But what do we produce? If we produce more than we ever have, I want to know what it is and where it is, because I can't find any of it.

Millions of automobiles? Hundreds of airplanes? Personal computers, microchips, guns, fighter planes, tractors... are you even serious?

[HankB]

But what do we produce? If we produce more than we ever have, I want to know what it is and where it is, because I can't find any of it.

I own a couple of American-made cars - but they have "foreign" labels, Toyota and Nissan. But at least they were built stateside by American workers using (mostly) American-sourced components.

A lot of heavy equipment and precision tools are still made here, too.

But consumer goods? I'd like to be able to buy an American-made toaster, television, wrist watch, shirt . . . any of a myriad of other items that were usually built here. But it's getting harder and harder every day. (I DID find a "Made In USA" toaster on-line, but it was a commercial unit selling for around $1k, so it's not winding up in my kitchen anytime soon.)

[AJ Dual]

I do have to wonder if to a degree, technology has passed them by.

While not big military bombers like during the height of the cold war, Boeing is still making lots of large civilian aircraft. Yet a lack of this tooling does not seem to hurt them.

I don't THINK they're sub-contracting out large forgings to India or China either.

So forgive me for taking this with a grain of salt, but I strongly suspect the end of the Cold War and the birth of composite airframes is to blame for at least 50% of the loss of this manufacturing capability than the "ZOMG, we dun screwed up and squandered away this abilitayyy!"

I'm sure there are times and places where the engineering calls for monolithic metal forgings that other technologies and materials that have since been invented are not suitable, but I bet it's way less. I detect a hint of "But what of the buggy-whip makers?" here.

[MicroBalrog]

I don't THINK they're sub-contracting out large forgings to India or China either.

Well, they do subcontract their titanium parts to Russia.

[brimic]

So forgive me for taking this with a grain of salt, but I strongly suspect the end of the Cold War and the birth of composite airframes is to blame for at least 50% of the loss of this manufacturing capability than the "ZOMG, we dun screwed up and squandered away this abilitayyy!"

I'm sure there are times and places where the engineering calls for monolithic metal forgings that other technologies and materials that have since been invented are not suitable, but I bet it's way less. I detect a hint of "But what of the buggy-whip makers?" here.

And yet we've lacked the ability (or is it willpower?) to put a man on the moon for 40 years.

[dogmush]

Read the whole article.
8 out of our 10 heavy presses are still operating, and churning out all the forgings we need.  Even the author says:

Now is not the time for America to build new forges: eight really is enough. But the original heavy presses, which have lived far longer and spurred far more innovation than was ever imagined, set an example that I think might yet be followed. Big machines are the product of big visions, and they make big visions real. How about a Heavy Fusion Program?

American made wrist watch:
http://www.rgmwatches.com/collections/American%20Made/

American made clothing: (Just the first one I found)
http://www.blackanddenim.com/

American made toaster:
http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Appliances/Waring,Made-In-USA,/brand,other,/245/cat.html

I admit that televisions are hard to find.  Of course American labor is more expensive(better) then Chinese, so these good will be more expensive (better) then the imports.  Can't have your cake and eat it too.

[MillCreek]

I do have to wonder if to a degree, technology has passed them by.

While not big military bombers like during the height of the cold war, Boeing is still making lots of large civilian aircraft. Yet a lack of this tooling does not seem to hurt them.

I don't THINK they're sub-contracting out large forgings to India or China either.

This is something I know about, based on all the media stories in this area. I live about ten miles away from the Boeing plant in Everett, where the 747 and 787 is built.  Back when the 787 was conceptualized, Boeing made the decision to farm out parts manufacturing all over the world. This was to take advantage of cheaper labor costs, specialty construction methods and make the plane more salable on the world market, since it had foreign content.  All the parts would then be shipped by rail or ship to Everett, and essentially snapped together by the assembly line workers at Paine Field.

This approach has turned out to be somewhat of a miserable failure and is now presented as a business case on how to not do things.  Quality of the subassemblies has varied.  In some cases, the original manufacturer has been fired, because the parts needed so much rework in Everett.  Shipping delays have been significant.  So much so that Boeing converted a couple of cargo 747s into what they call the DreamLifter, which flies all over the world picking up parts and bringing them back to Everett.  The plane has now been delayed for years and billions of dollars of additional costs.

Boeing now admits that they erred in outsourcing so much engineering, parts manufacture and subassembly construction.

[AJ Dual]

Well, they do subcontract their titanium parts to Russia.

Well, after silicon and oxygen Titanium is one of the most abundant elements in the Earth's crust.

I always was under the impression it was an infrastructure/cost issue, and to some degree experience* and that were the Russians to cut us off, it would not be a show-stopper long term. Just a pragmatic matter of it being easier to pay, than set up all the infrastructure here.

*And while we may source RAW Ti from the USSR through false front companies, and now Russia openly for other commercial reasons, we certainly didn't have them do any detailed forgings of critical parts for black-budget stuff like the SR-71...  

This is something I know about, based on all the media stories in this area. I live about ten miles away from the Boeing plant in Everett, where the 747 and 787 is built.  Back when the 787 was conceptualized, Boeing made the decision to farm out parts manufacturing all over the world. This was to take advantage of cheaper labor costs, specialty construction methods and make the plane more salable on the world market, since it had foreign content.  All the parts would then be shipped by rail or ship to Everett, and essentially snapped together by the assembly line workers at Paine Field.

This approach has turned out to be somewhat of a miserable failure and is now presented as a business case on how to not do things.  Quality of the subassemblies has varied.  In some cases, the original manufacturer has been fired, because the parts needed so much rework in Everett.  Shipping delays have been significant.  So much so that Boeing converted a couple of cargo 747s into what they call the DreamLifter, which flies all over the world picking up parts and bringing them back to Everett.  The plane has now been delayed for years and billions of dollars of additional costs.

Boeing now admits that they erred in outsourcing so much engineering, parts manufacture and subassembly construction.

I was vaguely aware of that debacle. However I don't think any of the parts or sub-assemblies in question were these uber-special monolithic aerospace forgings/stampings the article is about in specific.

[brimic]

Heck my wife has had to go visit and audit  plants in Mexico because they couldn't make subassemblies like carbuerators correctly- and this is 100+ year old technology.
As long as bean counters farm out work to third world countries to get 'cheaper' products, they will get cheaper products.

[MicroBalrog]

*And while we may source RAW Ti from the USSR through false front companies, and now Russia openly for other commercial reasons, we certainly didn't have them do any detailed forgings of critical parts for black-budget stuff like the SR-71... 

This is true, but lots of commercial aircraft parts for the airliners are made in Russia these days.

[AJ Dual]

This is true, but lots of commercial aircraft parts for the airliners are made in Russia these days.

Yes, I acknowledged that. However I see it as simple economics, and no need to duplicate infrastructure, rather than a measure of national ability or prestige.

Although, I don't think I'd get in an airliner where ALL the parts were Russian, or it's final integration was Russian.

No offense intended.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/russian-airliner-missing/

[MicroBalrog]

Yes, I acknowledged that. However I see it as simple economics, and no need to duplicate infrastructure, rather than a measure of national ability or prestige.

Although, I don't think I'd get in an airliner where ALL the parts were Russian, or it's final integration was Russian.

No offense intended.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/russian-airliner-missing/

A great example of an airliner where 30-50% of the parts are made in the West, and where the cause of the accident is not yet known.

The article is also incorrect on several points.

Sukhoi hopes to sell the 68- to 103-seat jet throughout parts of Asia, Western Europe and North America, where Russian aircraft have yet to find any customers.

Sukhoi already has multiple contracts in Western Europe and the United States. So have other Russian  manufacturers.

[HankB]

American made wrist watch: http://www.rgmwatches.com/collections/American%20Made/

Notice that prices go up to $95,000? Not exactly a "consumer good" as the term is ordinarily used.

American made toaster:
http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Appliances/Waring,Made-In-USA,/brand,other,/245/cat.html

In the Q&A section for each product, "overstockcustomercare1" states that both the two slice and four slice toasters are made in China.

[dogmush]

Notice that prices go up to $95,000? Not exactly a "consumer good" as the term is ordinarily used.

And they start at about ~$2000.  Which is par for the course in watches of that quality.

In the Q&A section for each product, "overstockcustomercare1" states that both the two slice and four slice toasters are made in China.

My bad, I'll look on the bottom the next time I'm in the restaurant supply store, but I thought Waring was still made here.

My point was plenty of stuff is still made here.  It just tends not to be in the bottom half of price ranges, and since "consumer goods" is a pretty cutthroat industry, the Made in the USA stuff tends to be niche or boutique.  But it's still there, and good quality.

I, for one, am pretty glad there aren't a bunch of Americans churning out TV's and iPod's for whatever those Chinese workers get paid.  Our workers are worth more then that.

[seeker_two]

When we talk about "Made In The USA" products, we need to remember the important distinction between  "manufactured" and "assembled"....

[RevDisk]

But what do we produce? If we produce more than we ever have, I want to know what it is and where it is, because I can't find any of it.

We do a lot of final assembly here in the States. I live not far from New Holland Agriculture, Sikorsky's civil aviation plant, Hershey Foods, M&M Mars, Dart Container (plastic lids), Giorgio Foods (they own the majority of the US mushroom industry), etc.

A LOT of stuff is sourced internationally. But final QA, assembly, etc are done stateside. Every time that gets outsourced, bad things tend to happen. Add in automation, efficiency improvements and often overworking employees, you need a lot less people. 

There's reasons why stuff gets sourced so often. For smaller companies, because they get cheaper components and weed out the really bad parts or vendors by trial and error. Bigger companies, combination of inventory tax (hugely shapes procurement/manufacturer processes), international "free trade" agreements (sigh), favor-trading with governments, etc. If you sat through one trade commission run by the Department of State, you'd swear State is run by anti-American fanatics. Because it probably is. I had to leave after 5, 10 minutes. I hear the old Global Logistics guy I knew lasted an incredible 20, 30 minutes. And DIDN'T gut any State employee. Dude was hardcore.

America makes a LOT of stuff, and we're getting really good at it. Just with less and less people.

[makattak]

America makes a LOT of stuff, and we're getting really good at it. Just with less and less people.

Just like our agriculture.

[Pharmacology]

That’s a piece of titanium about 15 feet wide and a foot thick, in its raw state and after being forged in a single stroke between the Fifty’s hardened steel dies under 100 million pounds of pressure.

WOW!!!!

Well, they do subcontract their titanium parts to Russia.

well, I mean, they do have a buttload of Ti  over there.

[MicroBalrog]

When we talk about "Made In The USA" products, we need to remember the important distinction between  "manufactured" and "assembled"....

Build an airliner assembly plant in Zimbabwe.

Then fly in the resulting plane.

[HankB]

Build an airliner assembly plant in Zimbabwe.

Then fly in the resulting plane.

Some years back I flew on a Zambia Airways 737 from Harare to Lusaka. Overhead bins were held shut with duct tape, you could see the decking through holes worn in the carpet, and the paint was peeling.

I survived the experience, so the mechanicals were apparently in better shape.