Author Topic: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...  (Read 6152 times)

makattak

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http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2016/04/18/marines-new-fitness-plan-pullups-women-wont-mandatory/82793128/

Quote
The plan would officially reverse a requirement announced by then-Commandant Gen. James Amos in late 2012 that women would soon be required to do at least three pullups to pass the PFT. Eight would needed for a max score, while men have to belt out 20. This was to end the era of the flexed-arm hang.

The plan never made it off the ground, though. Data collected in 2013 found that 55 percent of female recruits couldn’t meet the minimum requirement. A study of 318 female Marines found that the women could complete 1.63 pullups on average. Roughly 20 percent of those Marines could only hit three pullups if they used their lower bodies in a "kipping" motion.

But, as predicted, they won't be.

No, I'm shocked, really.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

wmenorr67

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2016, 09:44:34 AM »
The Army is toying with an idea of having the APFT (Army Physical Fitness Test) be MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) specific.  What a flusterlcuck that will be. :facepalm:
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Kingcreek

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2016, 10:20:27 AM »
So what?
a company of menopausal lesbian wimminz with combat weapons and training could really kick some male asses.
What we have here is failure to communicate.

230RN

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2016, 10:23:50 AM »
"Every Marine is a rifleman."

And a pullup whiz.

Quote
In June 1941, 24-year-old [Lyudmila] Pavlichenko was in her fourth year of studying history at the Kyiv University when Germany began its invasion of the Soviet Union.[5] Pavlichenko was among the first round of volunteers at the recruiting office, where she requested to join the infantry and subsequently she was assigned to the Red Army's 25th Rifle Division;[5] Pavlichenko had the option of becoming a nurse but refused; "I joined the army when women were not yet accepted".[5] There she became one of 2,000 female snipers in the Red Army, of whom about 500 survived the war. She made her first two kills as a sniper near Belyayevka, using a Tokarev SVT-40 semi-automatic rifle with 3.5X telescopic sight.[5]

Terry


REF:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko#World_War_II

WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

makattak

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2016, 10:26:33 AM »
"Every Marine is a rifleman."

And a pullup whiz.

Terry


REF:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko#World_War_II



So, are we to think it's a good idea to recruit women because 75% of them were killed in that quote?

Or are you of the opinion that it's a bad idea?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

230RN

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2016, 10:40:04 AM »
"So, are we to think it's a good idea to recruit women because 75% of them were killed in that quote?"

Sheesh.  Bad joke.  Just wanted to emphasize the number of female snipers in that situation.

Terry
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

makattak

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2016, 10:47:51 AM »
"So, are we to think it's a good idea to recruit women because 75% of them were killed in that quote?"

Sheesh.  If joke, is bad.

Terry

Actually it's confusion. You highlighted the part about only 500 out of 2000 survived the war. I'm trying to discern if you think that putting women in combat is a good idea, after having highlighted that, or if you were just ignoring that part because WOMEN SNIPERS!
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

RevDisk

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2016, 10:51:28 AM »

Fighting in the Red Army during WW2 came with risks.


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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2016, 10:56:24 AM »
A nation scrambling to repel an invasion is not the same as a nation trying to build the most effective military during relative peace time.

Is the very best our nation can do is putting recruits into roles where they have substandard natural abilities that cannot be overcome? (ie physical and mental  limitations)

Is that how you become the best?

Why not put recruits into roles that build upon their strengths?

Our country is hell bent on turning our women into shallow inferior copies of men and turning men into emasculated inferior copies of women.

Tabula Rasa is a lie and the innate physical differences between the sexes should be obvious.



For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

brimic

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2016, 10:57:10 AM »
Fighting in the Red Army during WW2 came with risks.




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dogmush

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2016, 12:01:56 PM »
It's worth noting that women WILL be held to the same standard as men in combat. That's the nature of war.

The question is what standard to hold them to in training.

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2016, 03:58:53 PM »
The Army is toying with an idea of having the APFT (Army Physical Fitness Test) be MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) specific.  What a flusterlcuck that will be. :facepalm:

If it's MOS specific and there's no decreased standards for women, I support this


Figure out what the JOB requires. Make EVERYONE do that. Period.
Fitz

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dogmush

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2016, 05:04:18 PM »
If it's MOS specific and there's no decreased standards for women, I support this


Figure out what the JOB requires. Make EVERYONE do that. Period.

I've had this argument for years.  If they tell me on one hand this is the minimum I need to be able to do to do my job, and be a soldier, then how come she only has to do 30% of it?  It will, I think, knock a bunch of females out of the Army however, as the event's I've seen tossed around include things like "Drag a 200lbs dummy 100M like a wounded buddy".

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2016, 06:18:08 PM »
Actually it's confusion. You highlighted the part about only 500 out of 2000 survived the war. I'm trying to discern if you think that putting women in combat is a good idea, after having highlighted that, or if you were just ignoring that part because WOMEN SNIPERS!
I brought up the matter of the female Russian snipers to illustrate that they have in fact been effective in combat.

I just highlighted the whole numbers thing to offer some perspective on it.  The 2000 was the important part, so don't read too much into it.  I'll leave it to someone else to calculate the overall casualty rate during that conflict if a comparison would be valuable.

To answer you directly as to whether women in combat should be held to the same physical standards as men, I offer the following.  Note this is apart from the possible sexual-erotic-romantic difficulties it may pose, or other problems, such as the menstrual cycle matter:

Disclaimer:  I have never been in the military, nor, obviously, in combat.  So here's my ivory-tower theory on the matter of women qualifying to a universal arbitrary standard of physical abilities for combat.

Look at it this way.  The role of the 9mm pistol in combat is different from the role of the various long arms.  One does not expect the pistol to deliver effective accurate fire at 600 yards*.  Nor does one expect a Jeep to take the same role as a battle tank.

Similarly, one does not expect a C-130 gunship to take on the same role as an F-111.

In these comparisons, their, so to speak, "MOSs" are different, yet all of those are effective in combat.

If you follow these parallels, I see no reason why it should be necessary for a female soldier to meet the same arbitrary physical requirements of (let's say) doing 20 pullups as male combatants.

Just as it is not necessary to require the official sidearm to penetrate a helmet at the also-arbitrary 300 yards* for long arms.

Or a C-130 to dogfight with a MIG.

That's my non-professional ivory-tower opinion on the matter.

Challenge away.  

Terry

* Or whatever the hell it is lately.  And when I say "arbitrary," I mean what's the difference between 300 yards and 301 yards... or, for that matter, 20 pullups as opposed to 21 pullups.  Or 19.

(And incidentally, I seem to recall the same kind of debate as to the mental capacity of negroes (nowadays, "blacks") to be effective in combat.  Yet (I am told), the first casualty of the Shot Heard
'Round the World was probably a black man.  Their role in the Navy was limited to stewards and cooks, and in the Army, later on, to artillery.  Took a bit of balls for the military higher-ups to change that.)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 06:44:46 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

dogmush

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2016, 07:25:34 PM »
That argument would make sense Terry, if the physical standards were linked to the roles in combat.  But they aren't.

Examples: I as a 36 year old Watercraft Operator* have to be able to do 36 push ups in two minutes.  Minimum.  A female, 36 year old Watercraft Operator has to do 15.  I deploy with female soldiers in my MOS in all but one of my deployments, and I'm taking 3 over next year.  We do THE SAME THING, yet she doesn't have to be as fit.

Even more backwards, I have to do 36 push ups to drive a boat, but a female Infantry soldier, my age, still only has to do 15.  Trust me, I'e done both jobs, the Infantry requires more physical fitness.

*So not the pointy end of the spear at all.

Also, anecdotal data: In one of the few real on emergencies I've had underway, we were slowed down responding to a leak pretty badly because our female couldn't pull start a diesel de-watering pump.  Good soldier, smart, but didn't have the upper body strength to do her job.  And her leaders had failed her by just pencil whipping performance tests for fear of telling her she wasn't strong enough.  She got like 270's on her APFT, but couldn't perform her MOS.  Couldn't chuck a 5" mooring line across 15 feet of water to the pier either.

Fitz

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2016, 08:12:40 PM »
(And incidentally, I seem to recall the same kind of debate as to the mental capacity of negroes (nowadays, "blacks") to be effective in combat.  Yet (I am told), the first casualty of the Shot Heard
'Round the World was probably a black man.  Their role in the Navy was limited to stewards and cooks, and in the Army, later on, to artillery.  Took a bit of balls for the military higher-ups to change that.)

Completely unrelated to the issue at hand, and a fairly blatant attempt to paint those of us that disagree with a particularly nasty brush.

Did those debates on the mental capacity of blacks come with drastically different standards for blacks while letting them into the specialties?

There are certain genetic and biological realities that , while surmountable, are not insignificant. Letting them INTO these specialties while saying they don't have to meet the same physical standards is a recipe for disaster.

ANYONE in the infantry should be able to be fit enough for the job. Period. A woman with 15 push ups and a 19 minute two miler might be hard pressed to carry me off the battlefield. Meanwhile, even with a lung condition and bad knees, I can still pass to the male standard and outperform nearly every female I've ever worked with, save about two
Fitz

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2016, 09:29:24 PM »
Quote
Completely unrelated to the issue at hand, and a fairly blatant attempt to paint those of us that disagree with a particularly nasty brush.

Not fair, no attempt to paint.   :facepalm:

Is related in terms of illustrating changing military leadership outlook over time :facepalm:

Give them a chance.  Like the Nisei. The 442nd Infantry Regiment became the most decorated unit in U.S. military history. (< Wiki)

I'm sure the wisdom of the military leaders will prevail despite my ivory tower views.  Sooner or later.

Probably later.

That is all.  

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 09:48:42 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

freakazoid

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2016, 09:41:57 PM »
I brought up the matter of the female Russian snipers to illustrate that they have in fact been effective in combat.

I just highlighted the whole numbers thing to offer some perspective on it.  The 2000 was the important part, so don't read too much into it.  I'll leave it to someone else to calculate the overall casualty rate during that conflict if a comparison would be valuable.

To answer you directly as to whether women in combat should be held to the same physical standards as men, I offer the following.  Note this is apart from the possible sexual-erotic-romantic difficulties it may pose, or other problems, such as the menstrual cycle matter:

Disclaimer:  I have never been in the military, nor, obviously, in combat.  So here's my ivory-tower theory on the matter of women qualifying to a universal arbitrary standard of physical abilities for combat.

Look at it this way.  The role of the 9mm pistol in combat is different from the role of the various long arms.  One does not expect the pistol to deliver effective accurate fire at 600 yards*.  Nor does one expect a Jeep to take the same role as a battle tank.

Similarly, one does not expect a C-130 gunship to take on the same role as an F-111.

In these comparisons, their, so to speak, "MOSs" are different, yet all of those are effective in combat.

If you follow these parallels, I see no reason why it should be necessary for a female soldier to meet the same arbitrary physical requirements of (let's say) doing 20 pullups as male combatants.

Just as it is not necessary to require the official sidearm to penetrate a helmet at the also-arbitrary 300 yards* for long arms.

Or a C-130 to dogfight with a MIG.

That's my non-professional ivory-tower opinion on the matter.

Challenge away.  

Terry

* Or whatever the hell it is lately.  And when I say "arbitrary," I mean what's the difference between 300 yards and 301 yards... or, for that matter, 20 pullups as opposed to 21 pullups.  Or 19.

(And incidentally, I seem to recall the same kind of debate as to the mental capacity of negroes (nowadays, "blacks") to be effective in combat.  Yet (I am told), the first casualty of the Shot Heard
'Round the World was probably a black man.  Their role in the Navy was limited to stewards and cooks, and in the Army, later on, to artillery.  Took a bit of balls for the military higher-ups to change that.)

There is a difference between losing a pistol and losing a person.
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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2016, 10:11:07 PM »
If it's MOS specific and there's no decreased standards for women, I support this


Figure out what the JOB requires. Make EVERYONE do that. Period.

I think this is brilliant.  If we as a nation are committed to (1) an effective military and (2) gender equality, this would seem the best possible way go address physical fitness standards.  Commn sense should be that a JAG officer and an Infantry officer have different job requirements,  so why not different physical minimum requirements?   And by making it job specific, not gender specific, you create real equality. 
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Fitz

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2016, 10:13:48 PM »
Not fair, no attempt to paint.   :facepalm:

Is related in terms of illustrating changing military leadership outlook over time :facepalm:

Give them a chance.  Like the Nisei. The 442nd Infantry Regiment became the most decorated unit in U.S. military history. (< Wiki)

I'm sure the wisdom of the military leaders will prevail despite my ivory tower views.  Sooner or later.

Probably later.

That is all.  

Terry, 230RN

I never said women couldn't be in the infantry, and be successful. I have time and again said (search my posts if you must) that if the standards are the same, and reflect the tasks an infantryman needs to perform, i'm good with them doing it. Problem is, the standards are not the same, women are under no obligation to prove that they can do the job adequately, and other than a small minority, most American women are incapable of doing the job physically.


"It's not necessary for a C130 to dogfight with a mig"

No, but it is necessary for a c130 to carry a buttload of cargo or troops. It's also necessary for an infantry soldier to maneuver 25 miles through *expletive deleted*it terrain with a massive rucksack full of *expletive deleted*it. Something very few women are capable of, or at least, the ones joining the military.

There's a reason every woman in the marine SOI pilot program failed.
Fitz

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Fitz

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2016, 10:15:33 PM »
I think this is brilliant.  If we as a nation are committed to (1) an effective military and (2) gender equality, this would seem the best possible way go address physical fitness standards.  Commn sense should be that a JAG officer and an Infantry officer have different job requirements,  so why not different physical minimum requirements?   And by making it job specific, not gender specific, you create real equality.  

Bingo.

And what's even more stupid is, we KINDA do this for some jobs. For example, aviation maintenance has a prereq of "the ability to regularly lift 50 lbs of equipment, and occasionally lift 100 lbs of equipment" Then again, I am not sure if it's enforced. But I've seen it. it's there.


Why in the world can't we say "Infantry soldiers must be able to complete a XX mile roadmarch in YY hours, with full combat load and a rucksack containing XYZ, carry a 180 lb soldier a distance of XX meters in YY minutes, and qualify XYZ with the M4A2 rifle"
Fitz

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2016, 10:48:37 PM »
“Not-Hot”
http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/?p=602

Quote
Women’s inferiority to men in respect to physical strength, aerobic capacity, endurance and, above all, robustness, is obvious to all. The price is paid by their male colleagues; when a female trainee in a mixed unit breaks down, as often happens, guess who is going to carry her and/or her weapons and pack? But the price women have paid for serving in “combat” units has been much higher. Many of the documents in question are classified so as to avoid angering Israeli feminists, an aggressive and often obnoxious lot, by presenting them with the facts...

The largest group, 442 out of 1,593, serve in three mixed battalions named “Caracal,” “Leopard,” and “Lions of the Jordan” respectively. In each of these they form 60 percent of the total. What all three have in common is that they are permanently deployed along the borders with Egypt and Jordan. Those in turn have this in common that, over the last forty years, they have seen hardly a shot fired in anger...

It so happened that, a day after I completed this article, I watched a clip of artillery troops on a route march. The men, heavily loaded with equipment of all kinds, sweated, grunted and did their best to keep up. One or two female soldiers were marching along, carrying a much smaller pack and looking as if they were on a lark. Whatever they may have been doing there, clearly they were not being tested as the men were. (You can find the clip on https://www.facebook.com/ynetnews/videos/10154114053990572/.)...
Regards,

roo_ster

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230RN

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2016, 11:06:06 PM »
OK, OK.  I guess I'm wrong.  So be it.

Not the first time.

Terry, 230RN
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Perd Hapley

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2016, 11:50:44 PM »
 Yet (I am told), the first casualty of the Shot Heard 'Round the World was probably a black man.  Their role in the Navy was limited to stewards and cooks, and in the Army, later on, to artillery.  Took a bit of balls for the military higher-ups to change that.)


Are you talking about "the Shot Heard 'Round the World," at Concord in '75, or do you refer to Crispus Attucks, a casualty of the Boston Massacre?
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Scout26

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Re: OF COURSE Women in combat must be held to the same standard...
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2016, 01:13:07 AM »
The only problem that I have with the MOS specific PT standards is that it gets away from the fact that at any moment, you can become an 11B.  I can't find the citation for the cook that earned the MOH  (Nevermind found him http://www.history.army.mil/moh/wwII-g-l.html#GIBSON).

I think the Marines get it right with "Every man a Rifleman", the Army fails badly at that.   We've seen what happens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Piestewa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshana_Johnson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch

 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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