Calling Bridge Building and Familty Politics Experts

[41magsnub]

At my family's cabin that is on a 1/2 acre on a 10 year Forest Service lease we have a 40 year old log bridge across the creek so we can drive into the place, we built the cabin in 1938.  The Forest Service in it's infinite wisdom has decided we can no longer have a car bridge when we rebuild it this summer as part of the process to get the lease renewed and the best we can build is a foot bridge with no support in the middle. 

On top of that my 92 year old senile yet very able bodied Grandfather who is the lease holder has decided he will be making the decisions and is already making crazy talk involving landscaping timbers (the rounded small ones, not railroad tie type) and 2x4's.  If anybody talks to him about the bridge he just gets combative, not wanting to hear about any other ideas and even starts yelling.  My aunt who is a very nice person but has not a shred of mechanical ability or common sense is cheering him on.  Nobody is looking forward to this project.

The span is 25'.  Any suggestions on designs and how to present them so that my Grandfather does not automatically poo-poo them?  I'm one of the "kids" despite being 35 so my input is limited, even though I have done this sort of thing before.  My dad and I are thinking two wood or steel beams across the creek set in concrete on either side with rough cut 2x material (whatever we can find) as decking.    Cost will determine if it is wood or steel.  We are going to hit up one of my Dad's engineer buddies for the beam size.  If I really had my way we would drop an old flatcar across the creek and be done with it forever but the Forest Service would not allow it when we asked about it a few years ago.

One other thought I had was to let him build it his way to make him happy, then after he passes on rebuild it so it lasts.  It's cold, but realistic and might be the best option.

On a further rant the Forest Service is really sticking it to us on the renewal.  We currently have a water system in place which consists of a 2" irrigation pipe running up the hill to a nice pool in the creek which then gravity feeds down to the cabin.  We use it for showers and dishwater and drains into a gray water system of a buried 55 gallon drum with gravel and rocks in it.  We have to either bury the pipe after getting an archaeological survey done or take it out.  Digging it in is not really an option since it is running on the side of a mountain over rocks so we have to take it out.  We have a paper trail of approvals to put in the water system back from the 50's but that apparently does not matter now.

[wmenorr67]

I would consult a lawyer in regards to the papertrail.

As for Grandpa, sometimes it is better to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

[Tallpine]

The bridge doesn't matter.  The Nazis at the Forest Circus are determined to get rid of all these leases by harrassing you until you just give up.  They will win eventually.  They even tried to burn out lease cabins in CO by starting a forest fire nearby

I had to deal with USFS for years, and their arrogance and incompetence is unbelievable.  The "old school" guys were great but they have all retired by now.

[Ezekiel]

1.  Get the Forest Service to "approve" YOUR design.
2.  Build it.
3.  Indicate, "Sorry Grandpa, damned government."

The water system is more difficult.  Do they have suggestions?

[mfree]

http://pghbridges.com/basics.htm

[41magsnub]

We might talk lawyers on the water system after the renewal for 20 years is a done deal.  It would not behoove us to piss off the ranger right now since he has a lot of say on whether it gets renewed at all.  The suggestion on the water system from the USFS is to bury it or rip it out.  The archaeological survey is ridiculous, there were no Indians in that area at all.  Too high and snowy.  There are lots of old mines around but not close by and everybody knows were they all are.

We might just ditch the water line and see if we can put in an above ground tank.  The added benefit of that would be more pressure for the shower (and less debris) and the ability to have a fire pump.  The downside is we have to fill it, but I can deal with that.  That is for next year.

For USFS approval of the bridge design that definitely needs to be done, maybe we will luck out and the ranger will say no to Gramps's design (which is all in his head), provide the official foot bridge plans, and say "build this".  I've seen one version of those plans and they are basically what I was thinking of.  The one way we are going to cheat is by making it wide enough to get a 4 wheeler across.  Next I'll have to buy a 4 wheeler and a little trailer.

[Tallpine]

The one way we are going to cheat is by making it wide enough to get a 4 wheeler across.

Needs to be "handicap accessible" after all ... 

I wish you luck.  Is this in Colorado by any chance?

[41magsnub]

The one way we are going to cheat is by making it wide enough to get a 4 wheeler across.

Needs to be "handicap accessible" after all ... 

I wish you luck.  Is this in Colorado by any chance?

We had thought of that

Thanks! 

Montana, Beaverhead National forest by Dillon.  It was built by my dad's side of the family when they all lived in Butte and worked for the Anaconda company in the mines.

[BridgeRunner]

Mediation. 

Much cheaper than lawyers, could avoid problems of screwing Grandpa, or having him feel like he's been screwed (ditto aunt), is more likely than litigation to sort out the problems with the Forest Service, and is the process in which you are least likely to lose big. 

[Tallpine]

That's nice country.  We camped a few days one time up at the very head of the Big Hole River.  Idaho was just over the continental divide about 4 miles away.

A couple of cute rangerettes dropped by and gave us a lecture about noxious weeds, and also warned us about grizzly bears.  I didn't show them the .45 LC+++ Vaquero under my wool shirt  

We did the Polaris-Wise River drive on the way home, too.

[41magsnub]

We did the Polaris-Wise River drive on the way home, too.

Sweet, the cabin is about 50 yards off that road on the Wise River about 20 miles from the town of Wise River.  It is pretty much my favorite place in existence.  Most everything I do for fun outdoors is right there:  shooting, big game hunting, fishing, biking, poking through ghost towns and old mines, and cross country skiing.   If I ever buy a raft or drift boat the Big Hole is close.  I'm sure there are upland game birds around there somewhere too but I've never tried.  I've got a 100 yard rifle range right behind the cabin, which is to say the cabin is roughly 100 yards from a big hill and I cleared a single shooting lane cutting firewood.  There are lots of areas that have been recently logged away from the main road that make for great trap shooting.

[Hawkmoon]

Footbridge? 25 feet? Piece of cake.

You don't need steel for that. Pressure-treated wood is just fine. If you can't get 2x12s that are 25 feet long, just laminate three or four together with the ends staggered where they occur in the overall length. (One joint near the middle, one joint at the quarter point, another joint at the three-quarter point.)

Two old carpenters' rules of thumb for floor joists (spaced 16" on center) are:

(1) Take the depth of the joist in inches, multiply by 1-1/2, and that's the span in feet. (i.e. a 2x12 would safely span 18 feet).

or

(2) Take the depth of the joist in inches, subtract 2, then double it for the span in feet. (i.e. a 2x12 would safely span 20 feet.)

Both of those are for supporting uniform floor loads in a room, complete with people and furniture. A section of floor 4 feet wide (which is a useful width for a foot bridge) would have four joists under it. If your bridge had three beams, each made up of two or three 2x12s laminated together, you'd be in good shape.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

till some inspector rejected it they make outdoor glue lams any length or a nice swinging bridge  there any highwater issues that would periodically undermine the ends?

[Tallpine]

How about a cable suspension bridge ?

Actually, if you can work out your troubles with the FS, then I would suggest 2 wood trusses that serve as beams and handrails.

[41magsnub]

Oh, I totally forgot..  every few years at high water the creek flows over the existing bridge.  It happened this year supposedly, but I have not been in there yet as the road just opened last week.  That makes me nervous about any sort of glued solution.  The log beams in the existing bridge are set back far enough that this amazingly has not been a problem.  The creek does not normally go that high anywhere else, but there is this enormous rock under the bridge that at one point had a support beam up to it that pushes the flow up.

I had my dad going for about an hour last week when I said I wanted to build a rope suspension bridge.  "Hang on Lady, we go for a ride!"

I like the truss idea, we could even work in a arch to get the bridge higher so less risk of water.

[Warhorse]

The idea of building a water tank to hold your needed supply is a good one and should work.

A sneaky way to get around the problem of a pipeline to fill it may be simply to string a sufficient length of flexible garden hose from the tank to the pool up the mountain and set up a siphon. A simple valve at the bottom would control the flow. If there is any static about this, you can simply install the hose when you are there and remove it when you leave. Voila! No permanent installation and it becomes little different from carrying buckets of water to fill the tank.

The bridge is a much bigger problem. I have no bright ideas there.

Warhorse

[tokugawa]

Is the car bridge unsafe?  Could you just block part of it off to restrict vehicles? 

What happens to the lease when Grandpa dies- is it transferable then? Is it transferable now? Do you have to renew the lease every 10 years?

Your family has a long attachment to the place, but I suspect Tallpine has a pretty good grasp on the situation-the USFS would probably like to see you gone. Is there something you could do for the ranger to get him to change his mind?  Are there options to buy a place nearby?

[41magsnub]

Is the car bridge unsafe?  Could you just block part of it off to restrict vehicles? 

It is very unsafe right now, we would have rebuilt it last year but Gramps stalled and would not let us.  Every piece of wood is rotting out.  It is basically a walking bridge now since nobody is brave enough to try driving it.  Now we have to early this summer for the lease renewal to rebuild per the Forest Service who thinks it is going to collapse and dam the creek.

What happens to the lease when Grandpa dies- is it transferable then? Is it transferable now? Do you have to renew the lease every 10 years?

It is on a 10 year lease expiring in July and Gramps will not transfer it which is too bad since it is really easy to do at the same time as the renewal (so I am told, the "kids" don't get to see the paperwork).  We might get a 20 year lease this time but I am not holding my breath.  It will get split 50/50 between my aunt and my dad, unless my dad gets any more tired of the family politics and does what he threatens to do which is just give it up and make it my aunt's problem.  In that case the family will probably lose it since it will not get maintained and will not have the cash to keep up the lease which gets more expensive all the time.  Case in point we put a delta rib roof on it several years ago, my aunt welshed on her 1/3 of the cost ( 1/3 gramps, 1/3 dad, 1/3 her) and my dad ended up eating it despite agreeing to paying for her part and none of my cousins are interested in it.  I pitched in about 1/2 of her 1/3 and a crap load of labor which was all I could afford at the time.  Dad took it under protest.

Your family has a long attachment to the place, but I suspect Tallpine has a pretty good grasp on the situation-the USFS would probably like to see you gone. Is there something you could do for the ranger to get him to change his mind?  Are there options to buy a place nearby?

Not really, if we lose it I won't be back in the area much.  There are similar recreational opportunities closer to home.  The cabin itself is the attraction.

[roo_ster]

Why is the FS so hot to give folks the boot?

[41magsnub]

Why is the FS so hot to give folks the boot?

One thing I am paranoid about, though have no proof on, is that the FS would rather these be converted to FS rental cabins. 

For the lease fees what really blows is that it is being reassessed for 2008 based on private property values 20 miles away of actual houses just outside of the national forest.  They are not remotely the same thing, the private land cannot be taken away at the whim of the FS like the leases can.