Author Topic: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today  (Read 19871 times)

AJ Dual

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2011, 10:01:13 AM »
You should put up a sign on your door stating that legally owned and carried firearms are more than welcome.

It's not my business, I'm just a peon. I shoot with the owner now and again, and he's definitely pro-gun, and pro-CCW, but he's definitely got an attitude that it's not going to be a 24/7/365 kind of deal. Attitudes, I'm sure that are borne of living in the outer ring Milwaukee burbs.

We've had a "no weapons" policy in the company handbook forever. Although it's just a copypasta generic HR source. Not specifically written by them.

I don't think he'll post our offices.

So between not posting, and the HR policy, we'll have a "don't ask, don't tell, if you're made, or someone complains, you're out the door"-policy on CCW.

However, I am thinking about what kind of things I can do to that neighboring business to quietly torment them over posting, although I'm not going to post any ideas that violate APS's CoC/ToS etc.  >:D

Since they're a Business 2 Business type outfit, I don't think adding them to any pro-carry "Businesses to Boycott" lists will help, but I will do it anyway.
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Fly320s

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2011, 10:44:31 AM »


I haven't read the WI ccw rules. Is that sign a legally binding posting?
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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2011, 11:04:39 AM »
I don't know if it meets the size requirements (can't tell what size it is), but if it does, then it's legally binding. You can't be arrested just for carrying, though. You have to be asked to leave. If you then refuse, they can call the cops and they'll remove you or cite you for trespassing.

Someone should put together an informational flyer on the downside of posting signs, i.e. that if something happens where a permit holder could have stopped a bad guy, but was prohibited from carrying, that he and other victims can sue. That might change some minds.

AJ Dual

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2011, 12:09:44 PM »
I don't know if it meets the size requirements (can't tell what size it is), but if it does, then it's legally binding. You can't be arrested just for carrying, though. You have to be asked to leave. If you then refuse, they can call the cops and they'll remove you or cite you for trespassing.

Someone should put together an informational flyer on the downside of posting signs, i.e. that if something happens where a permit holder could have stopped a bad guy, but was prohibited from carrying, that he and other victims can sue. That might change some minds.

First part is semi-correct. You can't be "arrested" per-se for violating a legal sign in WI.

However, it's risky. WI does not have the "Verbal warning/trespass authority if you refuse" for it's no-carry signs like many other states do. That, AFIAK, was in the old versions of the WI PPA bills that failed. I don't know exactly why it changed.

Failure to obey a proper no-CCW sign here is a $1000 WI state civil forfeiture. There's no requirement for the posted property owner to verbally notify, or warn someone who's in violation either.

The good news: a civil forfeiture is not even a misdemeanor, so your carry or gun-owner status, should not be in any jeopardy. The bad: It's $1000-frickin dollars! And with no requirement to notify, someone who observes (or merely suspects) that you are carrying in violation of their sign, can call the po-po without warning as you browse in the store or whatever, and there's no "get out of it clause" like there is with the verbal warning/trespass states, where it's no harm-no foul if you willingly leave once instructed to do so.

So WI's signage enforcement is a mixed bag, there's zero criminal liability, but the fine is quite steep. And there's no way to weasel out of it by politely agreeing to leave the premises. Once you enter a posted location, the violation exists, and keeps on existing, even after you've left, if there's some credible proof, I guess. So if you're made in a posted location, they know who you are from some identifying information, like say, you used your credit card at the checkout, or someone got your license plate, they could still call the police after you've left, who might serve you with the citation at your home even.

It remains to be seen with how much zeal the police will follow up on this since the number of carriers who've gotten permits back is still just in the dozens. And it'll be interesting if local municipalities catch on, and create their own local civil forfeitures, to try and capture any revenue that the state would have otherwise gotten.

The upside though is they may set the fine lower than $1000.

The second part is dead-on though. WI's legislature thoughtfully added civil immunity over the actions of a licensed CCW'er to any business or public place that does NOT post. Any place that does post could face civil lawsuits if someone who has a CCW permit, and did not carry because of the signs, and is harmed in a crime or violent act on their property.

Hopefully the reality of this will be an incentive in the long run for most postings to come down, or not be replaced as they fade or wear out.

The sign I took a photo of above is legal, as it's printed on 8.1x11" paper. IIRC, the minimum size in the law is 5x7".

I haven't scouted my whole building yet, but we do share an "L"-shaped rear courtyard/loading dock area that I can see from my office windows. (I have a killer view of the dumpsters) and from what I see, they haven't posted all the entrances to their building, but they may still be legally covered, because I believe the law states "All entrances readily accessible by the public. And the rear service doors etc. aren't "common entrances" and presumably are secured and only accessed by the employees etc.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2011, 01:22:29 PM »
Quote
Failure to obey a proper no-CCW sign here is a $1000 WI state civil forfeiture. There's no requirement for the posted property owner to verbally notify, or warn someone who's in violation either.

I didn't realize (obviously) that the bill had been changed in that portion. Ouch. I guess I'll definitely have to remove my gun before visiting relatives in jail. ;)

Matthew Carberry

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2011, 01:32:15 PM »
I sent off my fax to the WI DOJ with the info on AK's permit requirements for reciprocity examination.

We'll see if they actually respond.
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Strings

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2011, 01:57:31 AM »
I'll have to reread the law: I could have sworn the "must be asked to leave" portion was still in there...
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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2011, 02:13:59 AM »
Just off the top of my head I can't think of another shall-issue state where the licensee must be asked to leave before further action can be taken.

wmenorr67

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2011, 02:41:58 AM »
Just off the top of my head I can't think of another shall-issue state where the licensee must be asked to leave before further action can be taken.

Have to double check but I believe Oklahoma is that way.
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Strings

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2011, 08:50:05 AM »
From the FAQ page...

Quote
A person may be subject to a Class B forfeiture if he or she carries a firearm on the property after being notified not to remain
on the property
or remain with a specific type of firearm
(bolding mine)
No Child Should Live In Fear

What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

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AJ Dual

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2011, 10:15:23 AM »
Cool! The asked to leave is still in there...

Gotta love how the legislature gives that as a huge wink-and-a-nod to "Concealed means concealed".  ;)
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2011, 07:55:32 PM »
Strings,

Is there any definition or clarification of what "notified" means?  Given how WI works could the AG decide to enforce it as the sign itself providing the notification?
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Strings

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2011, 02:37:41 AM »
Doesn't say. Verbiage is "either verbally or by posted sign". Hmmm...
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cosine

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2011, 11:36:26 AM »
WI committee strikes the four hour training requirement. Hopefully now a photocopy of my NRA Basic Pistol completion certificate will suffice.
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brimic

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2011, 11:53:56 AM »
Have been out of state the last week, just dropped my App in the mail this morning.
The wait begins.
At least JB van Hollen has his already (that friggen tool).
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brimic

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2011, 12:01:21 PM »
Quote
WI committee strikes the four hour training requirement. Hopefully now a photocopy of my NRA Basic Pistol completion certificate will suffice.

I would think it would...

Anyone know if this means that the Maryland online training course is sufficient to meet training requirements? A lof of my friends are scrambling to find a class to take, I simply sent a copy of my Hunter Safety card...
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StopTheGrays

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2011, 12:59:51 PM »
I just checked my checking account. WI DOJ just cashed my $50 check. Now it is just the waiting.
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AJ Dual

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2011, 01:31:20 PM »
I would think it would...

Anyone know if this means that the Maryland online training course is sufficient to meet training requirements? A lof of my friends are scrambling to find a class to take, I simply sent a copy of my Hunter Safety card...

No, face-to-face classroom training is still required.

It's really just a turf battle between the legislature and VanHollen, and an issue of semantics. The minimum has been removed, but in reality any decent legit course, from the NRA, or any other reputable source, will still be at least four hours long.

I suppose someone may set up a 2 hour course under the idea that someone who's an experienced long time gun owner and shooter is better served with 2 hours of lethal force and WI law issues than 4 hours of NRA basic safety info, but anyone really cutting it short, I'd be suspicious they were trying to set up a "CCW mill".

Schultz Gun club down in Muskego is offering classes, pretty reasonably. $100 for NRA basic safety in the home, and there'll be others soon. Anyone attending gets a coupon for $25 off their membership dues if they decide to join the club. The classes for November weren't all full as of last night's monthly club members meeting.

http://www.schultzgunclub.com/

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brimic

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2011, 02:16:49 PM »
Quote
No, face-to-face classroom training is still required.


Quote
I suppose someone may set up a 2 hour course under the idea that someone who's an experienced long time gun owner and shooter is better served with 2 hours of lethal force and WI law issues than 4 hours of NRA basic safety info, but anyone really cutting it short, I'd be suspicious they were trying to set up a "CCW mill".



The whole training requirement is inconsistant with reality.
I'm glad they allow Hunter Safety because it makes it simple for me, but take out the hunting ethics/regulations/range day/rifle identification portion of the course, and what's left is nothing that isn't covered at least as well with the maryland online course.
OTOH, classroom time isn't the equivalent to hands on training of any kind.
IMHO,  for a person who has spent 50 hours shooting competitively whether it be IDPA/IPSC/Bullseye/3-Gun/Highpower/CMP/Trap/skeet/sporting clays/adnauseum, a 4 hour class on safety is just a meaningless hoop to jump through.
 

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Strings

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2011, 03:43:41 PM »
Wasn't there a big argument about this earlier this year, whether a CCW course should include ANY range portion/safety, or should concentrate mostly on the laws and suchlike?
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What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2011, 04:47:08 PM »
I find it curious Cheeseheads are only concerned over blood in the street.  Whaddya gonna do with the bodies?
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AJ Dual

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2011, 04:47:29 PM »
Strings, there was debate over all of it.

And most people, and all of the media miss the intent behind the law having no time requirement on the training or class requirements.

It's more an acknowledgement that "water seeks it's own level".

A class may impart some specific and useful knowledge, but it won't make an otherwise competent and cautious person "more cautious".  Nor would 72 hours of class time make a loose cannon goofball more responsible. They'd just merely repress their natural goofiness for the duration, and then they'd revert once they have permit in hand.

Nor does a half-blind 4'8" 90 lbs widow who's 79 years old need Massad Ayoob's LFI III to know it's time to gut-shoot some mugger who's already on top of her, much less improve her aim at contact distances.

I find it curious Cheeseheads are only concerned over blood in the street.  Whaddya gonna do with the bodies?

At least in Milwaukee, we have our ill-conceived "Deep Tunnel Project", cynically designed to create a band-aid approach and cost-shifting onto the suburbs for Milwaukee's ancient combined rain/sanitary sewer system, rather than making Milwaukee proper foot the bill for separating it's ancient combined sewers.

It did not live up to expectations, and it allows record amounts of "untreated solids" directly into Lake Michigan almost every rainstorm.

So larger debris, like bodies are largely a self-correcting problem.

Unless you live on the Western edge of Michigan, I guess...

http://mises.org/daily/1538

« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 04:54:21 PM by AJ Dual »
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StopTheGrays

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2011, 05:45:40 PM »
I got mine in the mail today. # in the 600s. =)

Does any image illustrate so neatly the wrongheadedness of the Obama administration than Americans scrambling in terror from Air Force One?
Just great…Chicago politics has spread to all 57 states.
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brimic

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2011, 07:58:51 PM »
Quote
I got mine in the mail today. # in the 600s.
That is impressively quick turnaround time by a government entity, especially considering the volume of applications expected.
OTOH, maybe you were lucky to get your application picked early from the stack of mail and was one of the last processed last week? :facepalm:
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StopTheGrays

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Re: WI CCW (Apps for residents) starts today
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2011, 08:09:17 PM »
That is impressively quick turnaround time by a government entity, especially considering the volume of applications expected.
OTOH, maybe you were lucky to get your application picked early from the stack of mail and was one of the last processed last week? :facepalm:
One of my friends was convinced I would not get it until 2012. He renewed his license plates before I submitted my permit application and he still has not gotten anything back yet.
Does any image illustrate so neatly the wrongheadedness of the Obama administration than Americans scrambling in terror from Air Force One?
Just great…Chicago politics has spread to all 57 states.
They told me if I voted for John McCain, my country would look like it is run by people with a disturbing affinity towards fascism. And they were right!