Holy [censored]!!!!!

[AmbulanceDriver]

AD: so in your mind "felons can't own guns" and "anyone that owns a house has to beg for permission to work on it" are equivalent? Really?

Mike: thanks for the helpful and polite commentary. Have fun groveling for permission to do what you want with your own property, always nice to see someone who really needs the government to hold their little hands and protect them from themselves.

Hawkmoon: how about you address my argument? Can the State make you ask for permission before working on your car? Should you have to ask permission and pay a fee and have the setup inspected before you can reload?

Again, if you have ever bought a firearm from an FFL, then you too have "begged permission" from the gov't to own it.   I mean yes, you have the option of a face to face transaction, but even then, you have to follow the law (oh no, gotta stick within the boundaries of what the gov't gives you permission to do!) and be fortunate enough to find someone selling whatever gun you want to buy.  

Now, how about you address my question?  Why is "you don't own it until it's paid off" "utter BS"?  Until the mortgage is paid off, whoever owns the mortgage note has a legal financial interest in the property.  They may or may not be listed on the title, but until you fulfill your part of the contract (pay off the mortgage), they are part owners of the property.  

[Balog]

Again, if you have ever bought a firearm from an FFL, then you too have "begged permission" from the gov't to own it.   I mean yes, you have the option of a face to face transaction, but even then, you have to follow the law (oh no, gotta stick within the boundaries of what the gov't gives you permission to do!) and be fortunate enough to find someone selling whatever gun you want to buy.  

Now, how about you address my question?  Why is "you don't own it until it's paid off" "utter BS"?  Until the mortgage is paid off, whoever owns the mortgage note has a legal financial interest in the property.  They may or may not be listed on the title, but until you fulfill your part of the contract (pay off the mortgage), they are part owners of the property.  

Transfer of ownership is not the same as doing what you wish with property you own. You do grok the difference, yes?

Do you own a car if there is a note against it? Do you own anything if it was paid for via credit card with an outstanding balance? If the bank is the rightful owner of the property, do they have rights to do with it as they wish? And in the end, why does a private contract between you and a bank (which may or may not be applicable since mortgages are not universal) have any bearing on what the .gov does? Is your local .gov the enforcement arm of your bank, working to make sure you don't devalue their assets?

So, just so I'm clear, you're ok with needing .gov permission to work on your own car, and needing a .gov inspector to approve your reloading setup right? If you had to pull a permit and get an inspection to work on your brakes, that's totally cool yes? If not, why is that different from electrical work?

[Fitz]

In this thread. Idiots arguing semantics

[brimic]

In this thread. Idiots arguing semantics

Not to mention the personal attacks...

[Jamisjockey]

Guilty.

Calm down.

[Fitz]

I was intentionally being an ass. Was a joke

[brimic]

I think property owners vs local governing bodies discussions brings out the worst in a lot of people, I certainly threw my share of fuel on that fire.

[MicroBalrog]

Are you saying we should lift all gov't restrictions and allow these people to own guns?   Because clearly we're violating their property rights by not allowing them to own guns.   Oh, and if you've ever bought a firearm from a licensed dealer, you *have* asked the gov't for permission.  Or did you not fill out a 4473, or go through a NICS check

Well, yes, you are right, we should.

Or at least most of them.

[Tuco]

Sometimes, when all is right between me, myself, and I, this stuff can glide by without me thinking I have to comment.
Other days, when I'm lucky, the thread gets closed down before I get here.
A bad day has me trying to be snide and convincing you all that someone is an ass.
Just like electrical work, it's all about a man knowing his limits.

[RaspberrySurprise]

The bank does not own your house, they have a lien on it. There is a very large difference. If they owned your house they could walk in and out as they pleased and do with what they pleased. I've yet to come home one day and see an officer from the USDA making a sandwich in my kitchen despite the lien they hold on my house.

Not seeing the need to do something is also not the same as being unwilling do so when required. As well thumbing your nose at the local permit office is far less likely to result in you being shot or serving decades in prison as thumbing your nose at the ATF is.

Permits are a revenue stream for government with the window dressing of public safety.

[MechAg94]

Sometimes, when all is right between me, myself, and I, this stuff can glide by without me thinking I have to comment.
Other days, when I'm lucky, the thread gets closed down before I get here.
A bad day has me trying to be snide and convincing you all that someone is an ass.
Just like electrical work, it's all about a man knowing his limits.

I have stepped out for a day or two, came back, and been surprised/disappointed at what I posted.  We all have our bad days.

[Hawkmoon]

Permits are a revenue stream for government with the window dressing of public safety.

Not true in my state. I would guess that fewer than one-third of the departments, statewide, bring in enough in permit fees to actually cover the cost of running the department. There was one suburban town about five years ago that publicly stated an intent to raise fees (by a HUGE amount, like on the order of 200 percent) without adding any staff or equipment to the building inspection department. They were clear that the intent was to turn it into a profit center. The residents (taxpayers) were equally clear that they wanted no part of it.

[Hawkmoon]

Hawkmoon: how about you address my argument? Can the State make you ask for permission before working on your car?

Yes, they can. My state doesn't, but they can.

Should you have to ask permission and pay a fee and have the setup inspected before you can reload?

If personal reloading reaches a point where significant numbers (and it would be up to a legislature to determine what they think a "significant" number is) of people are being injured by home reloaders, then it could certainly be argued that the state should regulate who can do so. Before you start screaming at me again, remember that there is no "right of the People to load ammunition at home" in the 2nd Amendment. The 2A does say that the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, and even in the face of that we have people who are regular members of PRO-gun forums who advocate mandatory training and testing before issuing a carry permit. (I am not one of those advocates, for the record.)

[Balog]

Not as a question of capabilities, but do you think that would be justified and consistent withimited government? Would you participate?

[never_retreat]

Don't have to go that far.  Just get a meter on a utility pole with a single breaker and a NEMA 6-50 outdoor receptacle.  That's the only thing that needs a permit/inspection.  You run your entire house off a cord and plug, and it's out of their scope (the house is just a temporary appliance, not unlike a toaster)

Maybe 2 receptacles; one for the house and one for the garage/workshop/barn/whatever outbuilding.

Not quite, The national electrical code would consider this temporary wiring and is limited to 60-90 days. (don't hold me to the time fram I don't fell like digging out a code book)
So it would have to be disconnected after a given time.
Now if you house has wheels and you move it around every few months you are good.

[Tallpine]

Solar 

[Tuco]

Solar 

Solar falls under the jurisdiction of NEC. 

[Scout26]

Building codes and inspections are to hold down insurance company costs. (Reduce claims).

You do risk having a claim denied if they can prove that the work which caused the loss wasn't to code/inspected.

Some places have also used the permitting process as an "Additional Revenue Stream".

And many are filled with petty bureaucrats whose singular joy in life is saying "No".  Many are part of said place's "Planning and Zoning" department.




Who shall be among the first up against the wall when the revolution comes....

[Tallpine]

Solar falls under the jurisdiction of NEC. 

So I reckon that you are still scrood if you live in some town.  You'd have to have a bldg permit just to mount the damn panels 

Out here in the bush where I live, you can build virtually anything (assuming some defense satellite doesn't raise an alarm  ) and unless you connect to the grid you don't need a permit for anything.

Well, you're supposed to have a permit for a septic system ... 

I should ask my neighbor that built an off-grid home a couple miles from here.  He has solar power and rain-water collection.

[gunsmith]

Only thing you need an electrician for is the stuff between the panel and the meter head. Anything before the meter head is on the service to take care of. Anything panel or after is on you, and can be replaced like in kind sans permit. Unless Oregon is way, way different than WA.

Oregon recently jailed/imprisoned or at least heavily fined and felonied some rancher for collecting rain water and runoff into a pond, the water belongs to the collective said Oregon law.

[gunsmith]

So I reckon that you are still scrood if you live in some town.  You'd have to have a bldg permit just to mount the damn panels 

Out here in the bush where I live, you can build virtually anything (assuming some defense satellite doesn't raise an alarm  ) and unless you connect to the grid you don't need a permit for anything.

Well, you're supposed to have a permit for a septic system ... 

I should ask my neighbor that built an off-grid home a couple miles from here.  He has solar power and rain-water collection.

out here in the middle of nowhere, the permit inspectors or whomever they are have to drive roughly 300 miles to inspect anything, my friend did all this electrical work to code - they drove up, said "looks great" and never got out of the car!

most folks out here are off grid and some stuff is overbuilt other stuff is what I like to call "chicken coop tech"

lots of folks out here are supposed to do this and that and don't do either.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Oregon recently jailed/imprisoned or at least heavily fined and felonied some rancher for collecting rain water and runoff into a pond, the water belongs to the collective said Oregon law.

factually impaired statement

[Perd Hapley]

out here in the middle of nowhere, the permit inspectors or whomever they are have to drive roughly 300 miles to inspect anything, my friend did all this electrical work to code - they drove up, said "looks great" and never got out of the car!

most folks out here are off grid and some stuff is overbuilt other stuff is what I like to call "chicken coop tech"

lots of folks out here are supposed to do this and that and don't do either.

So they follow the Ron Swanson code?

[Tallpine]

"chicken coop tech"

The Monroe "brothers" ?   

[InfidelSerf]

Jamis while I would generally agree with your statement about living in an HOA.
That was until I moved to Las Vegas.  Where a majority of the neighborhoods are HOA controlled.
Here you only have the choice of which HOA you will live under.  Fortunately we live in an area that only has a community land management HOA.