Master Troll: George Zimmerman

[KD5NRH]

To what?  Were I in hte bitty pocket 9mm market, I am thinking SIG P938 would br my choice.

Taurus 605.

9x33R has a proven track record.

[De Selby]

Just to stir the pot a little, I have to point out that had Trayvon walked home, he would not have had to answer to anyone.  GZ never stopped him, or in fact initiated any contact at all.  TRAYVON turned around initiated contact and expected GZ to answer to him.  So even if going to trial, being destroyed in the national media, losing your job, home, and SO somehow encourages someone to emulate his behavior, you still wouldn't be answering to them.

Wait a second there - who said Trayvon came to speak to GZ?  How did we learn this "fact" except from the only surviving witness, the same guy who had a history of arrests for being a confrontational a-hole before the shooting and continues to troll everyone around him after?

We do have on tape GZ saying "these bleep bleeps always get away" and then getting out the car.  But hey, his character says everything you need to know about his truthfulness.

[raises eyebrows] Well, isn't that a change from your earlier positions.

No, it isn't.  I've always maintained this was a case of criminally negligent killing (manslaughter).  

I also maintain that prior to GZ and the politics of race that came with it, had you given the scenario to any SD class no sane person would've said "yes, get out and go looking when suspect runs!".  And for good reason - doing so constitutes the first part of an indictment or information.   The next GZ may not be so lucky to face such a prosecutorial clown show or, even worse for that person, the witness might survive.

[dogmush]

No, it isn't.  I've always maintained this was a case of criminally negligent killing (manslaughter).  

Roo ster, I don't think what I'm saying is at odds with the point you make - you can still be an aggressor even if the force used to respond is unreasonable, in which case both chased and chaser are in trouble.  That's yet another reason not to chase.

Hey, look, charges - I believe second degree murder was the very first law I cited when challenged to explain what law Zimmerman broke. 

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=34104.msg683570#msg683570

[De Selby]

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=34104.msg683570#msg683570

Yes - that was in fact an accurate prediction on what he'd be charged with.  Wasn't too hard to see that coming, and I was responding to claims that somehow the investigation was being done to give political cover for exonerating GZ, or that there was no law the authorities could say he broke.

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=33872.msg679999#msg679999

Of course, the indictment ended up being that he "profiled" whatever that means, to the point of having a depraved mind.  He got lucky on prosecution.  No one with a mind to prepare should rely on that sort of thing.

[freakazoid]

We do have on tape GZ saying "these bleep bleeps always get away" and then getting out the car. 

 

[230RN]

Wait.  Despite any aholery that went on before, doesn't the fact remain that he was having his head slammed on the pavement/kerb, putting him in genuine fear of his life or severe bodily injury, when he pulled that PF9 out and shot his attacker?  This was supported, IIRC, by photos taken at the police station showing his injuries.

This alone should be the factor involved in whether he shot in self-defense, without clouding that central issue with prior activities.  And these prior activites, according to the available evidence as assessed by the jury, were not physically aggressive on Mr. Zimmerman's part.  Unwise perhaps, but not physically aggressive.

We've gone over this again and again in looooong prior topics, and it would seem, DeSelby, that you are quite adept at changing the discussion to what his attitude might or might not have been, whether racist, or stupid, or whatever, and leaping from that to somehow generating the accusation that he was a murderer.

Enough.  I await the "yeah, buts" and demurrals from the "Queen's Loyal Opposition," but this thread should be closed at the earliest reasonable opportunity.

Terry, 230RN

[roo_ster]

DS:

Simple fact was that the facts of the case were all on Zimmerman's side.  The prosecution case was pretty much what exonerated Zimmerman.  That includes witnesses to the incident other than Zimmerman and LEO expert witnesses.

Whatever one might think of Zimmerman's wisdom and attitude, the prosecution took its best shot while having the media, the ruling class, and the political apparatus aiding the prosecution and hindering Zimmerman's defense.  To include deceitful edits and hiding evidence.

And all you can point to is that Zimmerman might have been a judgement-impaired jerk?  When all the evidence weighs in his favor?  For shame.

[makattak]

The guy's been dealt a pretty raw deal in life. Whatever his intelligence level, or other character traits, he was trying to help out his neighbors that night. Good for him. We could any one of us be smarter and more cautious than George, and still get dealt the same hand. God help us if it does.

I'd like to highlight this statement as it is exactly how we should be responding.

PITY for the man, not disgust and recrimination. His life was destroyed for trying to do the right thing; for trying to protect his neighborhood.

He made some mistakes that night, but this man didn't deserve to become a national pariah for making a poor strategic decision- NOTHING he did was morally wrong.

But, of course, pointing that out is seen as praising him and making him the face of the movement.

[freakazoid]

Has gunbroker come out with anything on why they closed the auction? Seems unwise.

[makattak]

Has gunbroker come out with anything on why they closed the auction? Seems unwise.

I haven't seen anything, but I would think the large number of obviously phony bids would make any auction house reconsider, as the difficulty of sussing the real from the fake would more than eat up any fees they could charge. 

[Jamisjockey]

DS:

Simple fact was that the facts of the case were all on Zimmerman's side.  The prosecution case was pretty much what exonerated Zimmerman.  That includes witnesses to the incident other than Zimmerman and LEO expert witnesses.

Whatever one might think of Zimmerman's wisdom and attitude, the prosecution took its best shot while having the media, the ruling class, and the political apparatus aiding the prosecution and hindering Zimmerman's defense.  To include deceitful edits and hiding evidence.

And all you can point to is that Zimmerman might have been a judgement-impaired jerk?  When all the evidence weighs in his favor?  For shame.

But but but...he was neighborhood watch and carrying a gun! 

[Hawkmoon]

Wait a second there - who said Trayvon came to speak to GZ?  How did we learn this "fact" except from the only surviving witness, the same guy who had a history of arrests for being a confrontational a-hole before the shooting and continues to troll everyone around him after?

We do have on tape GZ saying "these bleep bleeps always get away" and then getting out the car.  But hey, his character says everything you need to know about his truthfulness.

Didn't Trayvon's functionally illiterate female acquaintance, the one he was talking to on the cell phone, testify that Trayvon told her he was going back after the guy (GZ)? It's been awhile, but I'm pretty sure she did.

[makattak]

Wait a second there - who said Trayvon came to speak to GZ?  How did we learn this "fact" except from the only surviving witness, the same guy who had a history of arrests for being a confrontational a-hole before the shooting and continues to troll everyone around him after?

Except the witness who was on the phone with the victim says otherwise - not that it matters, as the entire confrontation happened far from Zimmerman's car and behind a row of houses where Zimmerman went to in order to follow the victim.  Whether Trayvon Martin exacerbated the confrontation is a matter for sentencing - it'll certainly buy Zimmerman a few years back.

Like I said, in terms of self defense in any state, this set of facts WILL land you in hot water.  Don't go chasing people who want to get away from you when armed.  Going after people who aren't doing anything wrong makes it worse.

Huh.

[De Selby]

Didn't Trayvon's functionally illiterate female acquaintance, the one he was talking to on the cell phone, testify that Trayvon told her he was going back after the guy (GZ)? It's been awhile, but I'm pretty sure she did.

No, she didn't, and mak, you rightly point out that I should've said eye witness.

Of course, GZ at that point wasn't charged with being a numbskull causing death.  (I can't find anyone saying his conduct was anything but stupid.)  He got lucky.  Many others will not.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Yet another in a series of lifelong dramas. 

Zimmerman lucked out on two counts: 1st and foremost, he killed the only other witness to the start of the confrontation.

2nd, he wasn't charged with causing death through criminal stupidity, he was charged with depraved heart murder.  There was not a shred of evidence aired to support that charge. 

Criminal stupidity was tossed in at the end of the prosecutions case as an afterthought, a move so bizarre I'm sure our merry magistrate will be along to remark about how astounding it was to him.

The problem with his example isn't ant-gunners; it's the inspiration for would be junior detectives to run around their neighbourhoods playing cops but with real guns.  That's dangerous to everyone.  I don't expect to be answering to people who flash their concealed carry badges or shout "neighbourhood watch!", and I certainly don't want them "protecting" me with firearms.

Is it your allegation that Zimmerman did some of those things or is this more of creative writing fantasies

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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Wait a second there - who said Trayvon came to speak to GZ?  How did we learn this "fact" except from the only surviving witness, the same guy who had a history of arrests for being a confrontational a-hole before the shooting and continues to troll everyone around him after?

We do have on tape GZ saying "these bleep bleeps always get away" and then getting out the car.  But hey, his character says everything you need to know about his truthfulness.

No, it isn't.  I've always maintained this was a case of criminally negligent killing (manslaughter).  

I also maintain that prior to GZ and the politics of race that came with it, had you given the scenario to any SD class no sane person would've said "yes, get out and go looking when suspect runs!".  And for good reason - doing so constitutes the first part of an indictment or information.   The next GZ may not be so lucky to face such a prosecutorial clown show or, even worse for that person, the witness might survive.

Much of what we know about what Trayvon did comes from his girlfriend her testimony doesn't exactly portray Trayvon in a great lite though

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[Perd Hapley]

So far, we've found maybe two things about the GZ/TM controversy De Selby wasn't wrong about? Is that right?

[MechAg94]

I believe there was at least one other eye witness who lived near the fight.  He didn't see any events other than the actual fight and only part of that.  His testimony confirmed Zimmerman's story as well. 

I think the mistake that people make it getting caught up in the story line that he got out of the car to see where Trayvon went after the dispatcher told him not to.  That is very nearly irrelevant to the subsequent incident.  Whether or not you think he was pursuing Trayvon, he lost him and turned back toward his car after which Trayvon attacked him and he defended himself.  Trayvon was under no threat and was no long pursued (if you think he was).  Trayvon chose to return and attack Zimmerman and he was shot.  That is a clear cut self defense story. 

[De Selby]

I believe there was at least one other eye witness who lived near the fight.  He didn't see any events other than the actual fight and only part of that.  His testimony confirmed Zimmerman's story as well. 

I think the mistake that people make it getting caught up in the story line that he got out of the car to see where Trayvon went after the dispatcher told him not to.  That is very nearly irrelevant to the subsequent incident.  Whether or not you think he was pursuing Trayvon, he lost him and turned back toward his car after which Trayvon attacked him and he defended himself.  Trayvon was under no threat and was no long pursued (if you think he was).  Trayvon chose to return and attack Zimmerman and he was shot.  That is a clear cut self defense story. 

Note that the bolded part is George Zimmerman's account.  Hence that whole part about killing the witness.  Given what we know about Zimmerman's ability to get into confrontations, I don't think it's particularly believable (although in fairness almost all of the other fights he's been in have been with women.)

In any case, the fact that he stood trial and faced decades of imprisonment when there is a procedure available to avoid trials in clear-cut self defense cases speaks plenty to that point. 

I wouldn't be surprised if he uses the money from this auction to pursue a career in inter gender MMA matches.  I stand by the proposition that even though he beat the charge, a guy who:

-Is accused of molesting a younger female relative;
-Got into fights with police
-Has multiple DV accusations
-Posts revenge porn on the internet
-Lied to conceal bail money from a court, letting his Mrs eat the charge
-Seems to make his living selling confederate flag paintings along with other murderabilia

...is probably not the best source of truth about an SD shooting.

[MechAg94]

Note that the bolded part is George Zimmerman's account.  Hence that whole part about killing the witness.  Given what we know about Zimmerman's ability to get into confrontations, I don't think it's particularly believable (although in fairness almost all of the other fights he's been in have been with women.)

In any case, the fact that he stood trial and faced decades of imprisonment when there is a procedure available to avoid trials in clear-cut self defense cases speaks plenty to that point. 

I wouldn't be surprised if he uses the money from this auction to pursue a career in inter gender MMA matches.  I stand by the proposition that even though he beat the charge, a guy who:

-Is accused of molesting a younger female relative;
-Got into fights with police
-Has multiple DV accusations
-Posts revenge porn on the internet
-Lied to conceal bail money from a court, letting his Mrs eat the charge
-Seems to make his living selling confederate flag paintings along with other murderabilia

...is probably not the best source of truth about an SD shooting.

So you have no evidence that he did anything wrong, but you are assuming so because of his history.  Yet you don't seem to apply that same standard to Trayvon who had a more certain history of violence and theft and fancied himself an MMA fighter.  The idea that Trayvon would attack someone is very believable and any idea that he was a victim is probably not the best source of truth. 

[230RN]

-Is accused of molesting a younger female relative;
-Got into fights with police
-Has multiple DV accusations
-Posts revenge porn on the internet
-Lied to conceal bail money from a court, letting his Mrs eat the charge
-Seems to make his living selling confederate flag paintings along with other murderabilia

...is probably not the best source of truth about an SD shooting.

Vap'rous allegations unrelated to the core self-defense question:

Was he in fear of his life or severe bodily injury while Trayvon had him down and was demonstrably beating his head on the pavement?

Once again, the quote shows specious and purely argumentative attempts to divert attention from that core self defense question.  

That quote clearly demonstrates a cheap sophomoric debating team tactic.  We've all seen that before, where a poster insists on arguing, for the sheer sake of argument, an insupportable position.

Analogous to the quote:

"He's got a running iron in his saddlebag, therefore he must be the rustler.  So why wait for the law, let's hang him now."

"Now wait a minute, boys, he says he found it along the trail."

"That don't matter nohow.  Anyone with a running iron must be a rustler.  Who's got a rope?"

I suspect the term "Master Troll" in the thread title should be applied to someone else involved herein.

Terry, 230RN

Edited to add:

REF (Ancillary, for the convenience of those who might not have ever seen a real live cow on the hoof.  Scroll down to "running iron."):
http://www.cowboyshowcase.com/cattle-terms.html#.Vzs7CXnSlW8
See also search engine hits for "brand inspector."

[Jamisjockey]

The physical evidence on GZ supported his claim.  The primary eye witness, TM's GF, proved unreliable. 
He was acquitted.
Get over yourself, dearest counselor.

[brimic]

In any case, the fact that he stood trial and faced decades of imprisonment when there is a procedure available to avoid trials in clear-cut self defense cases speaks plenty to that point. 

You didn't read Ayoob's recap of the whole Zimmerman case did you?
Go back and read it.

[KD5NRH]

So far, we've found maybe two things about the GZ/TM controversy De Selby wasn't wrong about? Is that right?

Names and date?

[Boomhauer]

Get over yourself, dearest counselor.

Pretty sure he prefers to be addressed as Comrade or Dear Leader...