Author Topic: Did I over-react or under-react?  (Read 7863 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2007, 12:48:23 PM »
AZredhawk,

I'm not offended at all.  I simply want to know what racial features identified these people as middle eastern.

Surely, you would not have suspected terrorism if it weren't for their race.  So what racial features put you on alert for terrorism?

You're trying to bait me.

Your statement "you would not have suspected terrorism if it weren't for their race" is a bait.

What do you consider an appropriate response to the same situation?
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2007, 12:51:54 PM »
Quote
Your statement "you would not have suspected terrorism if it weren't for their race" is a bait.

AZRed, I see it as a simple observation.  I am curious as well.  Would you have suspected terrorism if it weren't for their race?  Or would you have seen it as a couple of idiots trying to pocket a couple packs of free underwear?

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
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wooderson

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2007, 12:57:43 PM »
Hard to believe an Arab dude might look a little prickly walking around Wal-Mart, given that sometimes it gets him reported to the terrorist hotline...
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2007, 12:59:57 PM »
I saw it as either.

As noted in the original post, my first action was to only notify a store employee.

After further reflection many hours later, I decided to also notify the FBI.  I told them it could have been a dry run, or it could have been some "innocent shoplifting."  I wasn't happy with my earlier, more sedate response.

The race element (coupled with additional nervous behaviors) convinced me to contact the feds.

FWIW, if it were a commando boot-wearing, tac-vest toting, knife weilding white guy with a zz-top beard (kinda like Reno flag guy), I would have probably done the same thing (local cops instead of feds, but whatever) and faster.

While not all muslims are terrorists, and not all terrorists are muslim, nowadays most terrorists are muslim.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2007, 01:02:56 PM »
Quote
Hard to believe an Arab dude might look a little prickly walking around Wal-Mart

Why didn't he have a cart or basket or some sort of goods in hand?

Why was he in the girls' clothing area?

Why did he only stay in the most populated parts of the store, near the registers?

How do you justify going from "Gardening" to "Groceries" to "Girls Clothing" without a single purchase in your hands?
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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I reject your authoritah!

Paddy

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2007, 01:05:20 PM »
Quote
There's also the fact that retail store terrorist attacks have only been carried out by Americans.  There hasn't been a single one undertaken by Muslim terrorist groups.

You must mean in the United States (and you'd have to go back a ways) because worldwide there have been over 450 terrorist attacks by Muslim groups just in the last 2 months.

wooderson

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2007, 01:09:27 PM »
I don't know where the hell anything is in Wal-Mart except for ammo. I rarely get a cart. I wander all over the place in big box stores, sometimes not buying anything.

But I'm a white dude (until yesterday, a white dude with a helluva hippie beard, but nonetheless), so I'm just going to guess my ambivalence and surliness never got phoned in to the FBI.
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Joe Demko

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2007, 01:11:21 PM »
Their behavior is consistent with shoplifting.
That's right... I'm a Jackbooted Thug AND a Juvenile Indoctrination Technician.  Deal with it.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2007, 01:14:52 PM »
Quote
I don't know where the hell anything is in Wal-Mart except for ammo. I rarely get a cart. I wander all over the place in big box stores, sometimes not buying anything.

But I'm a white dude (until yesterday, a white dude with a helluva hippie beard, but nonetheless), so I'm just going to guess my ambivalence and surliness never got phoned in to the FBI.

And they're not exactly being waterboarded in Gitmo right now, are they?

It's one tip to the Feds.  If other similar behavior pops up in Scottsdale or Phoenix, it will be lumped together to be assigned to an agent for further investigation.  No abridgement of rights happened here.  They weren't forced to leave, and they weren't denied the ability to shop.

Excuse me for being observant.  I guess they need to be saying "Dherka Dherka," "Allah uh Ackbar" and running around with wires protruding from their clothing before I'm supposed to do anything.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2007, 01:28:38 PM »

Quote
Excuse me for being observant.  I guess they need to be saying "Dherka Dherka," "Allah uh Ackbar" and running around with wires protruding from their clothing before I'm supposed to do anything.

Lose the attitude, bud.  If you don't like people challenging your assumptions you won't last long around here.

We're trying to understand your situation and see it from the outside in.  From our vantage point we see a couple of losers acting in a manner consistent with common shoplifters.  We're also a curious why the jump to the "terrorist" conclusion instead of a more simple, and much more probable one of "shoplifter."  It's not a personal attack, it's a valid question that needs to be asked.  Are there a couple of members here that might try to climb on you?  Yes.  But I guarantee the rest of us will have your back if it starts going down the wrong road.

So, take a deep breath and a chill pill.  Present your facts and expect to be challenged on them.  Be prepared to respond with a plausible reason, and in a rational, impersonal manner.  Also be prepared to be corrected if you're wrong and congratulated if you're right.  That's the APS way.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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roo_ster

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2007, 01:40:14 PM »
Wow, just got off the phone with the FBI.

They're fast with that tip line.

They don't want the pic yet, and they thanked me for the info.  Don't know if they will dig further on it or not.

But at least they have a fast phone center.

That just makes you wonder if they're really going to act on it, or if they just want to make sure they're not being pranked with tips. Dunno.

I've been surprised with the actual on-the-ball reaction of feds lately, though, so dunno. They popped up right away here and questioned people who made threats on web forums after the Browns got taken down...knew who they were, where they were, everything. I was a bit shocked at how efficient they were...and how they actually had been monitoring web boards. Not so 1950's anymore.
The government does NOT play around when it comes to taxes.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2007, 01:50:09 PM »
AZredhawk,

I'm not offended at all.  I simply want to know what racial features identified these people as middle eastern.

Surely, you would not have suspected terrorism if it weren't for their race.  So what racial features put you on alert for terrorism?

You're trying to bait me.

Your statement "you would not have suspected terrorism if it weren't for their race" is a bait.

What do you consider an appropriate response to the same situation?

Don't even bother. Shootinstudent = CAIR.

roo_ster

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2007, 01:54:26 PM »

Quote
Excuse me for being observant.  I guess they need to be saying "Dherka Dherka," "Allah uh Ackbar" and running around with wires protruding from their clothing before I'm supposed to do anything.

Lose the attitude, bud.  If you don't like people challenging your assumptions you won't last long around here.

We're trying to understand your situation and see it from the outside in.  From our vantage point we see a couple of losers acting in a manner consistent with common shoplifters.  We're also a curious why the jump to the "terrorist" conclusion instead of a more simple, and much more probable one of "shoplifter."  It's not a personal attack, it's a valid question that needs to be asked.  Are there a couple of members here that might try to climb on you?  Yes.  But I guarantee the rest of us will have your back if it starts going down the wrong road.

So, take a deep breath and a chill pill.  Present your facts and expect to be challenged on them.  Be prepared to respond with a plausible reason, and in a rational, impersonal manner.  Also be prepared to be corrected if you're wrong and congratulated if you're right.  That's the APS way.

Brad
Brad:

Why think "terrorism" and not just "shoplifitng?"  One reason might be that your average ME immigrant to the USA is less likely to be caught committing petty crimes, while being more likely to go for the "big bang," if you will. 

AZRH44's actions are reasonable and, given the time lag from incident to calling the FBI, not kneejerk. 
Regards,

roo_ster

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Brad Johnson

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2007, 02:04:49 PM »
Quote
One reason might be that your average ME immigrant to the USA is less likely to be caught committing petty crimes,


Not knowing the demographics of AZR44's area, I have to presume that it is a fairly broad slice of Americana.  From that I have to presume that there will be a number of swarthy-skinned people who may, or may not, be of middle eastern origin.  Dark or olive skin with black hair and exotic facial features covers a lot of territory.  I also have to go on sheer statistical probability ... two guys, one with a backpack, nervously walking around a Wal-Mart, then leaving without visibly purchasing anything leads me to one predominantly probable conclusion.  Common shoplifters.  Also, in many Wal-Marts, the ladies garment section is direction adjacent the jewelry section.  Milling around in the garments would be a logical time-waster that let them watch for the jewelry counter personnel to become occupied with other shoppers.  That provides them with the opportunity to grab something right out of the counter and skedaddle.  Their actions are consistent with shoplifters, their location near the items of highest concentrated value in the store.  The pattern fits.

As for the FBI calling back ... since 9/11 that's their MO when faced with a situation like this - people with physical features matching certain ethnicities acting strangely in public.  I would have been shocked if they hadn't promptly called.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2007, 02:16:48 PM »
Quote
I also have to go on sheer statistical probability ... two guys, one with a backpack, nervously walking around a Wal-Mart, then leaving without visibly purchasing anything leads me to one predominantly probable conclusion.  Common shoplifters.  Also, in many Wal-Marts, the ladies garment section is direction adjacent the jewelry section.  Milling around in the garments would be a logical time-waster that let them watch for the jewelry counter personnel to become occupied with other shoppers.  That provides them with the opportunity to grab something right out of the counter and skedaddle.  Their actions are consistent with shoplifters, their location near the items of highest concentrated value in the store.  The pattern fits.

Re-read the original situation.  Why would a shoplifter re-enter the store with his stolen goods still in his pack?  He left for about 15-30 seconds to meet with his original buddy outside then re-enter again.  A "mad dash" to the car to drop off a pile of loot and then re-enter for another round of five-finger-discounts is awfully conspicuous, so I doubt he did it to empty his bag.

Also, this Walmart, the girls' clothing department is about 100-150 feet away from the jewelry counter and you cannot see one from the other with any real reliability.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2007, 02:20:25 PM »
Quote
Why would a shoplifter re-enter the store with his stolen goods still in his pack?  He left for about 15-30 seconds to meet with his original buddy outside then re-enter again.


Shoplifters aren't the brightest bulb in the box to begin with.  I managed a Radio Shack way back when.  That's where I found that the sheer stupidity shoplifters are capable of is staggering.

In any event, you were observant enough to catch the unusual behavior.  That's a far cry from most of the population.  It shows you are at least paying attention to your surroundings and maintaining a sense of situational awareness.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
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De Selby

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2007, 02:43:27 PM »
AZredhawk, I asked about race because it was one of the first details you gave us, and because you said it's the reason you suspected terrorism.

Not to unfairly tie Brad Johnson to my secret CAIR mission, but I think he's asking you the same questions I was asking and in the same light.  This:
Quote
From that I have to presume that there will be a number of swarthy-skinned people who may, or may not, be of middle eastern origin.  Dark or olive skin with black hair and exotic facial features covers a lot of territory.  I also have to go on sheer statistical probability ... two guys, one with a backpack, nervously walking around a Wal-Mart, then leaving without visibly purchasing anything leads me to one predominantly probable conclusion.  Common shoplifters.

Is exactly what I was thinking when I read the OP.  It doesn't look like a case of terrorism, nor is the walmart a likely scenario for an attack.  As I said before, if this were the same story but set on the whitehouse lawn, I'd think you acted appropriately.  There's a lot more risk involved there and suspicious behavior of any kind should be taken more seriously than you'd take it at a local walmart.


Another issue is that I question the effectiveness of racial profiling to combat it anyway.  And what's why I asked you how you knew the guys were middle eastern. 

I repeat the question: How did you know what race they were?   And I repeat it because, if you can't come up with reliable indicators as to who is or is not a middle easterner...how can using race to identify terrorists be effective and not become simply suspicion of all people with darker skin and hair?

That's the risk here-letting fears of terrorism drive us to be suspicious of, and possibly report to the FBI, every shady looking person who happens to be a darker shade of tan.  In my book, that means fears of terrorism have gone too far, and are doing more harm to civil society than good.

This logic in particular is troubling:

Quote
While not all muslims are terrorists, and not all terrorists are muslim, nowadays most terrorists are muslim.

Imagine the tables turned-"while not all rampage shooters are gun owners, and not all gun owners are rampage shooters, nowadays most rampage shooters are gun owners.  So the next time I see a guy loading a rifle into his trunk, I'm going to call the cops and let them know...not saying arrest him, not saying abridge his rights, I just think the cops should look into it because most rampages are carried out by gun owners."

In other words, this kind of profiling is a dangerous road to take, for all of our freedoms.



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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2007, 03:22:15 PM »
shootinstudent:

I don't have the appropriate vocabulary to describe a face.  While I could discuss eyebrows, jaw lines, eye shapes and nose profiles, I don't think I have the skill to "put pen to paper" and defnitively say to the APS board or anyone else that categorically, middle easterners have noses like X, eyes like Y and jawlines like Z.

There are facial traits shared by ethnicities.  The best I could say for you is that I recognized these facial traits as mediterranean, with olive skin color and thick eyebrows.  The ears were not shaped like someone from India or anywhere further east, with the large lobes.  The nose was also smaller than most Indians.  The hair was straight, not curly, yet jet black.  I'm picking out pieces here, and not drawing the whole picture, because I don't know how to draw the whole picture for you.

While I am sure that you can take my amateurish description and disect components of it to attempt to prove that I do not know what a middle-easterner looks like, and I am sure there are ME's that don't fit a textbook mould, the fact remains that I can usually tell a Korean from a Chinese from a Japanese from a Vietnamese, just like I can usually tell a Persian from an Indian from a Turk.  I'm not a professional profiler, but I am right more often than I am wrong... and when I am wrong, it's usually a matter of less than 300 miles (meaning a neighboring state).

If I say middle-eastern, it's because I can't tell a Syrian from a Saudi from a UAE citizen due to inexperience with citizens from these various countries.
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Archie

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2007, 04:19:04 PM »
Redhawk, you did just fine.

You observed indicators of something untoward and you notified someone able to act on the information.  At your place and time, the improper activity was irrelevant; something improper was happening - or so you had reasonable cause to believe was happening - and you did that which was within your power to do.

Red, you are also correct about recognizing people from various countries and ethnicities.  After several years of looking at different faces every day, I developed a similar ability.  With a person in front of me, I could note down the features that make this person Philippino, that one Korean and another Persian.  The difference between Indian, Pakistani and Iranian are almost screaming in their distinctness.

On the other hand, you didn't shoot anyone or trip the fire alarm or make a big scene.

You did just fine.
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wmenorr67

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2007, 04:31:28 PM »

That's a bit scary. Wonder who the Fed's are on this board?  shocked police laugh

Dispatch two agents to Balog's house.  Starting to ask too many questions.
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Tallpine

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2007, 04:34:43 PM »
I think I would have exited the area immediately  shocked
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2007, 05:17:43 PM »

That's a bit scary. Wonder who the Fed's are on this board?  shocked police laugh 

Dispatch two agents to Balog's house.  Starting to ask too many questions. 


Stupid FBI, always blowing their cover.  That's why I troll for the State Department. 

Uh-oh. 
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wmenorr67

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2007, 05:21:01 PM »
Hey fistful,

The FED's is a large organization.  Maynot be FBI.

Remember all the super secret organizations that popped up after 9/11?
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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2007, 05:25:14 PM »
shootinstudent, grow up. This country is engaged in a multibillion dollar war with middle easterners, who, btw, are killing Americans as fast as they can.  We've been subjected to hate rallies, effigy burnings, videotaped beheadings of Americans, and a continuing barrage of aggression coming from the Muslim world.  It they don't want to be 'profiled', get the hell out of the country.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Did I over-react or under-react?
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2007, 05:38:08 PM »
i think i woulda made the call too i know if  i didn't i'd be second guessing myself about it.  and thats kinda amusing since i have been seen as looking "middle eastern"  i'm japanese irish  but dark black hair dark skin
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