Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: never_retreat on July 17, 2018, 12:09:19 AM
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I need to install a 120/240 volt 50 amp outlet on the outside of my father-in-law's house for his soon to be delivered Tesla.
Is it required to be GFCI? I'm at a loss in the code book. It's not a convience rec. But it's not for an installed appliance.
I did not know till the other day the charger is built into the car so it just needs an outlet.
Apparently there is supposed to be something about this in the 2017 code book which I don't have but I don't believe has been adopted by any states yet.
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Yes.
The 2017 NEC changed the 210.8(B) wording to read:
All single-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less and three-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 100 amperes or less installed in the following locations shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel…
Bolding mine. Outdoors is considered a non-dwelling area so that applies.
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No. Only 120V circuits have to be GFCI. An exception is a spa/hot tub circuit.
I just put in a 240V circuit for my compressor in a location where 120V must be GFCI but 240V is exempt.
This actually makes for a good loophole for garage freezers. If you get 240V freezers, they don't have to be on GFCI. I wonder if 120V ones can be converted easily to 240V.
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Someone told me that the Tesla charge station units were basically their own GFCIs and one wasn't required on the circuit.
Don't know if that's true or not at all.
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First three answers are Yes, No, and Maybe. Welcome to APS !!!
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Just install a GFCI circuit breaker in the panel for that circuit and don't worry about it.
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Yeah do the breaker for the circuit.
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Yes.
The 2017 NEC changed the 210.8(B) wording to read:
Bolding mine. Outdoors is considered a non-dwelling area so that applies.
Without the "following locations..." list it's hard to tell what applies. At any rate, it's a 240V application so it exceed the "150v or less" requirement.
Given what zach said, I'm guessing outdoor outlets follow the same general methodology as do indoor units... anything X feet or less from a wet location gets one. Everything else is protected by the circuit breaker.
What are the latest revisions on arc fault interrupters? At one time they were the up-and-coming safety thing to have. Haven't heard much about them in a couple of years, though.
Brad
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According to this article, AFCIs are code now...
http://www.ecmweb.com/content/arc-fault-detection-your-questions-answered
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Without the "following locations..." list it's hard to tell what applies. At any rate, it's a 240V application so it exceed the "150v or less" requirement.
150 volts to ground or less. Each leg is only 125 volts or so to ground.
I thought electric cars had their own charging thing installed on the wall, but I guess not. I'd second the idea of just using GFCI in the breaker panel, but you may have trouble finding a common trip GFCI breaker.
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150 volts to ground or less. Each leg is only 125 volts or so to ground.
So it's based on per-leg voltage, not voltage as measured at the outlet?
Brad
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Without the "following locations..." list it's hard to tell what applies. At any rate, it's a 240V application so it exceed the "150v or less" requirement.
Given what zach said, I'm guessing outdoor outlets follow the same general methodology as do indoor units... anything X feet or less from a wet location gets one. Everything else is protected by the circuit breaker.
What are the latest revisions on arc fault interrupters? At one time they were the up-and-coming safety thing to have. Haven't heard much about them in a couple of years, though.
Brad
Here are the locations:
Bathrooms
Kitchens
Rooftops
Outdoors
Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 6 ft from the top inside edge of the bowl of the sink
Indoor wet locations
Locker rooms with associated showering facilities
Garages, service bays, and similar areas other than vehicle exhibition halls and showrooms
Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
Unfinished portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms
it's all outdoor receptacles, and as Nick1911 noted, and I bolded, the code is 150 VAC to ground, so two 120VAC legs count. Indeed, that "volts to ground" is the change they made in 2017, very probably to cover electric cars and the like.
I saw mention of the Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter Mike mentioned, but didn't feel like running it down last night, so I'm glad he mentioned it.
Functionally speaking I didn't actually see a GFCI plug that size on a quick lap of the internet, so you will probably need to just go the GFCI breaker route. There are prewired "Spa" 50A sub panels for about $100, or you can grab the right breaker to put in the main panel.
Are you adding a receptacle to an existing circuit, or adding a whole new circuit?
Also, how big is the service coming into your father-in-law's house? Is it going to end up if he comes home and plugs the car in, while the stove and water heater are running the whole house trips?
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So it's based on per-leg voltage, not voltage as measured at the outlet?
Brad
When it's written as "volts to ground" yes, it's based on the voltage from any leg to ground. if it was just "voltage" it would be the voltage across the legs.
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Someone told me that the Tesla charge station units were basically their own GFCIs and one wasn't required on the circuit.
Don't know if that's true or not at all.
The original cars needed the wall charger. That had a built in gfci and since they were hard wired they would not need a gfci.
it's all outdoor receptacles, and as Nick1911 noted, and I bolded, the code is 150 VAC to ground, so two 120VAC legs count. Indeed, that "volts to ground" is the change they made in 2017, very probably to cover electric cars and the like.
I saw mention of the Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter Mike mentioned, but didn't feel like running it down last night, so I'm glad he mentioned it.
Functionally speaking I didn't actually see a GFCI plug that size on a quick lap of the internet, so you will probably need to just go the GFCI breaker route. There are prewired "Spa" 50A sub panels for about $100, or you can grab the right breaker to put in the main panel.
Are you adding a receptacle to an existing circuit, or adding a whole new circuit?
Also, how big is the service coming into your father-in-law's house? Is it going to end up if he comes home and plugs the car in, while the stove and water heater are running the whole house trips?
The whole house only has 100 amps, but everything is gas. Only major juice user would be the AC. The house is small so even that's probably on 2-2.5 tons. So maybe 25 amps max.
Yes its a new circuit of course.
I'm going to have to install a sub panel just to make some room in the main. Its chock full. I'm going to pull at least 4 circuits out to make room for a 2p50a for the car outlet and 2p50 for a sub panel to put those circuits in.
If there are any double taped breakers I'll clean that up as well. It looks like the panel was crammed when the basement was finished off in the late 80's.
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What brand main panel do you have? Hopefully something that still has breakers available.
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Without the "following locations..." list it's hard to tell what applies. At any rate, it's a 240V application so it exceed the "150v or less" requirement.
No, read it again. "150 volts to ground." A 240-volt outlet is 240 volts hot leg to hot leg, but each leg is 120 volts to ground.
The answer is "Yes," you need GFCI protection.
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According to this article, AFCIs are code now...
http://www.ecmweb.com/content/arc-fault-detection-your-questions-answered
That is what my house has. They don't play too well with modern power equipment such as chop saws.
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If I understood the original question correctly, the new outlet will be outdoor. Arc-fault protection is not required.
The following is from the 2008 NEC, and I don't think this part has changed:
210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Definition: ...
(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be
protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.
Basically AFCI protection is required for habitable areas. Outdoors is not a habitable area in code speak.
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No. Only 120V circuits have to be GFCI. An exception is a spa/hot tub circuit.
I just put in a 240V circuit for my compressor in a location where 120V must be GFCI but 240V is exempt.
This actually makes for a good loophole for garage freezers. If you get 240V freezers, they don't have to be on GFCI. I wonder if 120V ones can be converted easily to 240V.
A dedicated, single outlet circuit with a single (not duplex) receptacle can be run for a garage freezer w/o being GFCI.
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I thought electric cars had their own charging thing installed on the wall, but I guess not. I'd second the idea of just using GFCI in the breaker panel, but you may have trouble finding a common trip GFCI breaker.
It depends on the make/model. Many early cars were looking to reduce weight by any means possible. Tesla put in the work to develop lightweight charging systems.
You can get a specific Tesla Charger, but you get a selection of charging plugs with the car, including a 110 cripple charge, typical dryer outlet(30A), whatever campers use, as well as what welders normally plug into. The actual AC/DC and battery charging stuff is located in the car.
Now, you pull up to a supercharging station for a Tesla, it bypasses the on-board charges(can only handle up to about 100A@240V), for up to 20 of those units in parallel.
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Well this project is slightly delayed.
I pulled the panel cover off. Nothing scary at first, then I see the screws are rusted up on the main breaker.
Cable on the outside of the house is rotted. Water is getting in the jacket a dripping on the main breaker.
Oh and its only a 60 amp service. So neighbor is an actual electrician he is going to come replace the service cable and meter pan.
Got a new 100 amp breaker to replace the 60 amp main.
Panel is not as old as the house. It was changed when the basement was finished off. That work was done by a friend/lineman so its decent work.
Its a cuttler hammer panel so breakers are fairly common.
When he's done going to put the sub panel in to free up space and the 50 amp circuit for the car.
There are a couple double tapped breakers so I'm going to end up pulling the 4 circuits to make space and 3 from the double tapped ones.
So in APS fashion project not going as smooth as possible.
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Why would anyone want a Tesla? :facepalm:
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Why would anyone want a Tesla? :facepalm:
They want a powerful electric car that can, production, smoke most sprint cars off the line? They don't want to have to visit gas stations? They want to be able to use the HOV lane with just them?
Disclaimer: For the every short distance. Only the most premium of sports Teslas. Enough charge remaining after such racing to make it back home not guaranteed.