Author Topic: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home  (Read 4605 times)

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« on: October 12, 2012, 11:00:16 AM »
http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/grenade-burns-sleeping-girl-as-swat-team-raids-home/article_8bc67054-464d-5951-a5a1-003d4ed02d99.html

Police state now in Montana.

Looking for a non-existent meth lab.  No arrests and no charges, but "some evidence" collected.  ;/


I am furious, and I've just lost what little respect that I had left for cops.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2012, 11:06:55 AM »
<C&SD>   good. she shouldnt have been in that house. god bless those police for taking care of that dangerous criminal. aybe next time she'll watch who she assiciates with </C&SD>
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

ArfinGreebly

  • Level Three Geek
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,236
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2012, 11:12:16 AM »

You go to a house where you "suspect" there's a meth lab (just skip all that surveillance stuff, that's too time consuming and expensive) and you toss in . . . a FLASH BANG! grenade, because that's absolutely how you roll around famously inflammable chemicals and stuff like that.

Inconceivable!
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2012, 11:13:08 AM »
Quiet, citizen
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

zxcvbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,259
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2012, 11:19:49 AM »
The police have reached the point where they no longer want or need our support.  They *want* to be hated by the general public. 
"It's good, though..."

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 12:27:23 PM »
They should have tasered her as well.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,819
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2012, 12:56:41 PM »
Quote
The grenade is commonly called a "flash-bang" and is used to disorient people with a bright flash, a loud bang and a concussive blast. It went off on the floor where the girl was sleeping. She was in her sister's bedroom near the window the grenade came through, Fasching said.



Read more: http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/grenade-burns-sleeping-girl-as-swat-team-raids-home/article_8bc67054-464d-5951-a5a1-003d4ed02d99.html#ixzz296YQmtbH
How well do flash bangs work on people who are sleeping?  It seems that it would not disorient them much at all.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,819
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2012, 01:00:24 PM »
Quote
St. John said investigators did plenty of homework on the residence before deciding to launch the raid but didn't know children were inside.

"The information that we had did not have any juveniles in the house and did not have any juveniles in the room," he said. "We generally do not introduce these disorienting devices when they're present."

The decision to use a SWAT team was based on a detailed checklist the department uses when serving warrants.

Investigators consider dozens of items such as residents' past criminal convictions, other criminal history, mental illness and previous interactions with law enforcement.

Each item is assigned a point value and if the total exceeds a certain threshold, SWAT is requested. Then a commander approves or rejects the request.

In Tuesday's raid, the points exceeded the threshold and investigators called in SWAT.

"Every bit of information and intelligence that we have comes together and we determine what kind of risk is there," St. John said. "The warrant was based on some hard evidence and everything we knew at the time."



Read more: http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/grenade-burns-sleeping-girl-as-swat-team-raids-home/article_8bc67054-464d-5951-a5a1-003d4ed02d99.html#ixzz296Ywsg4N
My question is typical of these incidents and something that will likely never been answered for us.  Who did the investigation and on what basis did they determine it was a meth lab and there was cause to do a SWAT raid?  It sounds like it was insufficient and/or flawed and they need to go back to the drawing board on their process (or fire someone for sloppy investigating).  I would think the Judge authorizing this would be asking these questions too.

“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,982
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2012, 01:00:37 PM »


Police state now in Montana.

Looking for a non-existent meth lab.  No arrests and no charges, but "some evidence" collected.  ;/



I'd say there's "evidence" in the form of the girl's burned body, flash-bang hull, finger prints on it, broken window, and police report filed by the SWAT officers.

I hope for arrests and charges to be filed shortly, against the people that botched the recon, along with the officer that deployed the flash-bang.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2012, 01:07:26 PM »
With a militarized police you have to expect a certain level of collateral damage.

Give the little girl a Purple Heart for her sacrifices in the war on drugs.

WAR IS PEACE
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2012, 01:09:19 PM »
Quote
"It was totally unforeseen, totally unplanned and extremely regrettable," St. John said. "We certainly did not want a juvenile, or anyone else for that matter, to get injured."

Uh, doesn't he mean "Foreseeable that folks would get burned by an incendiary device when used inside a residence?"

Quote
St. John said investigators did plenty of homework on the residence before deciding to launch the raid but didn't know children were inside.

"The information that we had did not have any juveniles in the house and did not have any juveniles in the room," he said. "We generally do not introduce these disorienting devices when they're present."

If that is their homework, they need some more schoolin' to get it right.


Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

ArfinGreebly

  • Level Three Geek
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,236
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2012, 01:36:04 PM »

They had "intel" that said there was a meth lab.

Which there wasn't.

Their "intel" did *not* indicate that there were children -- or at least one child -- in the home.

Which where was.


Boy, howdy, that's some pretty busted intel.

That there "intel" is something we used to call "rumors."
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

griz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,060
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2012, 01:40:33 PM »
If you claim to have done your homework, and your best information leads you to the incorrect conclusions that:
1.   There was a meth lab in the house
2.   No kids were in the house
Then you should have to prove your competence before you are trusted with such decisions or dangerous toys.
Sent from a stone age computer via an ordinary keyboard.

geronimotwo

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,796
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2012, 01:42:10 PM »
with a raid like this, i would think it is more likely for police to get hurt as well.  if someone throws a grenade in my kids room i can't imagine that i would be asking questions before grabbing the shotgun.  i hope the girl recovers fully, and is not maimed/scarred for life.  the mother is calling for someone to be "reprimanded"?  i would be looking for jail time of whomever made the decision.
make the world idiot proof.....and you will have a world full of idiots. -g2

zxcvbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,259
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2012, 01:54:30 PM »
with a raid like this, i would think it is more likely for police to get hurt as well.  if someone throws a grenade in my kids room i can't imagine that i would be asking questions before grabbing the shotgun.  i hope the girl recovers fully, and is not maimed/scarred for life.  the mother is calling for someone to be "reprimanded"?  i would be looking for jail time of whomever made the decision.

Whoever made the decision has qualified immunity.  The judge who signed it has sovereign immunity.

As Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 3, there's a time for everything.  Since this is a public forum, I won't say out-loud what time it is.
"It's good, though..."

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,801
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2012, 02:15:06 PM »
SSShh...
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2012, 02:35:08 PM »
with a raid like this, i would think it is more likely for police to get hurt as well.  if someone throws a grenade in my kids room i can't imagine that i would be asking questions before grabbing the shotgun.  i hope the girl recovers fully, and is not maimed/scarred for life.  the mother is calling for someone to be "reprimanded"?  i would be looking for jail time of whomever made the decision.

Probably scarred emotionally at the very least  =(
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2012, 03:12:47 PM »
They had "intel" that said there was a meth lab.

Which there wasn't.

Their "intel" did *not* indicate that there were children -- or at least one child -- in the home.

Which where was.


Boy, howdy, that's some pretty busted intel.

That there "intel" is something we used to call "rumors."

Anyone laying odds that this RUMINT came from some punk trying to buy himself a get-out-of-jail-free card?

SADShooter

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,242
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2012, 03:16:05 PM »
Anyone laying odds that this RUMINT came from some punk trying to buy himself a get-out-of-jail-free card?

No bet.
"Ah, is there any wine so sweet and intoxicating as the tears of a hippie?"-Tamara, View From the Porch

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,819
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2012, 03:19:21 PM »
Anyone laying odds that this RUMINT came from some punk trying to buy himself a get-out-of-jail-free card?
I was thinking that they might have gotten the wrong house, but I don't know this area and how likely that was.  If they were lying about the "intel" and it was just a rumor from some punk, then that is worse.  Either way, they are responsible.  
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2012, 03:26:34 PM »
A lot of it has been covered already, but I am so angry that I'm going to go over it again:

Quote
the officer didn't realize that there was a delay on the grenade when he tried to detonate it.


Then why is he allowed to play with it?

Quote
St. John said investigators did plenty of homework on the residence before deciding to launch the raid but didn't know children were inside.

I guess your homework was not plenty enough.  You need a real good explanation of how you missed the presence of two kids, as well as some real good documentation of how long you studied the residence.

Quote
"The information that we had did not have any juveniles in the house and did not have any juveniles in the room," he said. "We generally do not introduce these disorienting devices when they're present."

You "generally do not" set off flash-bangs if kids are present?  That means that on ocassion (like this one) you in fact do set them off even when your homework has shown that there are kids present in the residence.  I would really like to see the grappling hook they use to climb out of that hole.

Quote
"Every bit of information and intelligence that we have comes together and we determine what kind of risk is there," St. John said. "The warrant was based on some hard evidence and everything we knew at the time."

Based on "some" hard evidence - and the rest of what you based it on is - what?  Are they going to use the same grappling hook, or get a new one, to climb out of this hole?

Quote
No arrests were made during the raid and no charges have been filed, although a police spokesman said afterward that some evidence was recovered during the search. St. John declined to release specifics of the drug case, citing the active investigation, but did say that "activity was significant enough where our drug unit requested a search warrant."

"Activity was significant enough where our drug unit requested a search warrant" does not have anything to do with actual, real, honest-to-goodness evidence seized at the scene.  If they thought it was necessary to use a dynamic SWAT entry to serve the warrant, the evidence they recovered should have been sufficient to be the basis of an arrest at the scence.  Just how long does it take to review "some evidence [that] was recovered during the search" and determine that based on that evidence charges should be filed?  Or are they letting a family that was running a meth lab in the middle of a residential neighborhood walk around free to destroy/dispose of any potential evidence that was not recovered at the scene, or to move assets that the cops have not yet discovered?

In other words - Barney Miller and his squad, Precient 54's Officer Tooty, or even the Keystone Kops could have done a better job.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2012, 03:49:23 PM »
I a going to cheer the day when the first 3 guys in the stack tak a load of 00 to the face while doing a no-knock on the wrong house.

It will take such a low probability event to finally get police to reconsider their tactics.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2012, 03:52:04 PM »
I a going to cheer the day when the first 3 guys in the stack tak a load of 00 to the face while doing a no-knock on the wrong house.

It will take such a low probability event to finally get police to reconsider their tactics.

They'd "reconsider" them to be even more pointlessly violent. Explosive breaching anyone?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,320
Re: Grenade burns sleeping girl as SWAT team raids home
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2012, 03:57:56 PM »
Quote
{Police Chief} St. John said investigators did plenty of homework on the residence before deciding to launch the raid but didn't know children were inside.

"The information that we had did not have any juveniles in the house and did not have any juveniles in the room," he said. "We generally do not introduce these disorienting devices when they're present."

The decision to use a SWAT team was based on a detailed checklist the department uses when serving warrants.

First, a freakin' meth lab is not something that can be easily flushed down the toilet. The cops were executing a search warrant, not an arrest warrant for a violent felon. There is IMHO no excuse for using flash-bangs and dynamic entry to execute a search warrant.

Second, it would seem that however much investigation the cops did, they should have done more. TWO kids (at least) live in the residence. If the cops did even minimal investigation, how could they NOT have know that?

Third, it would appear that the department's "detailed checklist" is in serious need of some revision ...
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design