Author Topic: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce  (Read 4400 times)

Paddy

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Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« on: August 10, 2007, 05:28:15 PM »
It would put an end to this crap.  Who cares who did who?  And why should the courts have to deal with it?  No fault=you want out, you're out.  Community property, half and half, adios have a nice life.

Not So Fast: E-Z Pass Data Used To Catch Cheaters
Divorce Lawyers Find Toll Records, Prove Spouses Lied About Whereabouts

(CBS/AP) TRENTON, N.J. There's some potentially troubling and telling news for all you motorists out there who may be taking the Turnpike for the worst crime in marriage: cheating on your significant other.

E-ZPass and other electronic toll collection systems are emerging as a powerful means of proving infidelity. That's because when your spouse doesn't know where you've been, E-ZPass does.

"E-ZPass is an E-ZPass to go directly to divorce court, because it's an easy way to show you took the off-ramp to adultery," said Jacalyn Barnett, a New York divorce lawyer who has used E-ZPass records a few times.

Lynne Gold-Bikin, a Pennsylvania divorce lawyer, said E-ZPass helped prove a client's husband was being unfaithful: "He claimed he was in a business meeting in Pennsylvania. And I had records to show he went to New Jersey that night."

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Generally mounted inside a vehicle's windshield behind the rearview mirror, E-ZPass devices communicate with antennas at toll plazas, automatically deducting money from the motorist's prepaid account.

Of the 12 states in the Northeast and Midwest that are part of the E-ZPass system, agencies in seven states provide electronic toll information in response to court orders in criminal and civil cases, including divorces, according to an Associated Press survey.

In four of the 12 states, including New Jersey and Pennsylvania, highway authorities release E-ZPass records only in criminal cases. West Virginia parkways authority has no policy. (Divorce attorneys in some cases can still obtain toll records from the other spouse rather than a highway agency.)

The Illinois Tollway, which hands over toll records, received more than 30 such subpoenas the first half of this year, with about half coming from civil cases, including divorces, according to Joelle McGinnis, an agency spokeswoman.

The New Jersey Turnpike Authority said it turns down about 30 subpoenas in civil cases every year, about half of them divorces.

Electronic toll records have also proved useful in criminal cases.

They played a role in the murder case against Melanie McGuire, a New Jersey nurse convicted in April of killing her husband and tossing his cut-up remains into the Chesapeake Bay in three matching suitcases in 2004. Prosecutors used toll records to reconstruct her movements.

Davy Levy, a Chicago divorce lawyer for more than 30 years, said toll records from I-Pass (part of the E-ZPass system) are useful in catching a spouse in a lie.

"You bring up the I-Pass records and it destroys credibility," said Levy, who has used such records two or three times for such purposes.

The E-ZPass network covers about half the East Coast and part of the Midwest, with about 2 billion charges per year. That can mean a lot of records. One of the busiest toll plazas in New Jersey, the Garden State Parkway's southbound Raritan plaza, gets about 90,000 E-ZPass hits per day.

Some worry that using those records for other purposes is a violation of drivers' privacy.

"When you're marketed for this new convenience, you may not realize there are these types of costs," said Nicole Ozer of the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California.

Bob Barr, a former Republican congressman from Georgia turned Libertarian and privacy rights advocate, said people who want to protect their privacy shouldn't use electronic toll systems.

"People are foolish to buy into these systems without thinking, just because they want to save 20 seconds of time going through a toll booth," he said.

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_222140553.html

m1911owner

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2007, 05:55:51 PM »
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... adios have a nice life.

Unfortunately, no-fault divorce doesn't work that way.  It's, "Poor, downtrodden little female, go have a nice life.  Nasty, evil male, go work your ass off to pay for her nice life.  And we might leave you enough of your income to rent a studio apartment somewhere.  Maybe..."   angry angry

armchair warrior

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2007, 09:29:02 PM »
They have those fast-pass things here in the SF bay area.
I refuse to get one.I don't need big brother knowing where
I am or where I been! shocked

Len Budney

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2007, 09:43:21 PM »
Unfortunately, no-fault divorce doesn't work that way.  It's, "Poor, downtrodden little female, go have a nice life.  Nasty, evil male, go work your ass off to pay for her nice life.  And we might leave you enough of your income to rent a studio apartment somewhere.  Maybe..."   angry angry

Chris Rock thought he was joking, but he was right: "What about the manner to which I've become accustomed? Sex three times a week!"

How can you enforce conjugal duties on only half of the marriage? And not call it slavery?

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Monkeyleg

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2007, 12:50:56 PM »
There was a guy I knew years back who was going through a divorce. She cheated, but she was the one pursuing the divorce.

The guy was in the process of taking over the rather large chemical company that his father had run.

The wife's attorney wanted a large percentage of the husband's projected income over the next ten years as a settlement. That would have been millions of dollars.

The husband's attorney was the one who had written Wisconsin's divorce laws. The attorney handed the husband a Rolodex. It had the names of hundreds of guys in there. The attorney said that, for $100,, any one of those guys would meet the ex-wife, date her, and marry her within a year, letting the husband off the hook.

The husband said he couldn't do something like that.

I told him he was an idiot.

SteveS

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2007, 01:46:10 PM »
What states don't have no-fault divorce? 

I did a paper several years ago for a divorce reform class and was somewhat surprised to find out that, on average, men were better off financially following a divorce.  While child support is common in MI divorces, alimony is fairly rare.  Usually, it is a 50/50 split and it is done.
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gaston_45

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2007, 07:22:48 PM »
The problem with no fault divorces are the kids go to the exwife in 99 percent of the cases.  What if she is the one cheating?  Would you want your kids living with that kind of a role model?

Perd Hapley

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2007, 07:37:51 PM »
My pastor often observes that it is harder to get out of a car lease than a marriage.  Which is pretty much how we want it these days, I guess.   sad
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Len Budney

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2007, 04:19:54 AM »
My pastor often observes that it is harder to get out of a car lease than a marriage.  Which is pretty much how we want it these days, I guess.   sad

Libertarian law (as opposed to US law) leaves the sacramental aspects to the church, and only deals with marriage as a contract. And as a contract, it would be equally difficult to get out of as a car lease. That's an improvement, at least!

My Chris Rock allusion wasn't meant to be prurient, by the way. Alimony is the court forcing the husband to continue bearing his husbandly duties of supporting the family; yet the court doesn't force the wife to continue her wifely duties. They force the man to be a bread-winner, but they don't force the wife to be a partner or mother. We rightly realize that forcing the woman to perform her conjugal duties is slavery, but we condone the enslavement of the husband.

Which is where libertarian law is actually much friendlier to the church that US law. Today there is no actual contract behind marriage. Covenant marriage is a noble attempt to create just such a contract. I'd say it points the way to making divorce difficult, painful and expensive, without the negative consequences of enslaving the husband, on the one hand, or empowering cheating wives to live lives of idleness, on the other hand.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2007, 04:22:15 AM »
Len,

You keep referring to libertarian law.  Is there such a code, or are you just using this phrase to describe your own ideal set of laws? 
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tyme

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2007, 04:30:52 AM »
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Today there is no actual contract behind marriage.

Prenups are pretty close.  Sadly, the general sentiment seems to be that prenups are only for the upper class.
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Len Budney

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2007, 04:38:41 AM »
You keep referring to libertarian law.  Is there such a code, or are you just using this phrase to describe your own ideal set of laws? 

There is some debate about the details, but "libertarian law" is well discussed in Rothbard's The Ethics of Liberty. In a nutshell, law in a libertarian society is only allowed to protect persons and property from aggression, and its power to punish is limited to recompensing the victim at the expense of the guilty.

Bear in mind that fraud counts as aggression, and that "recompense" includes what was stolen, costs of recovery and enforcement, some sort of interest charge, and possibly a fixed surcharge as "penalty." In particular, Moses' law, requiring thieves to repay double, is consistent with libertarian law.

On the other hand, things like prostitution, drug use, blasphemy, etc., are beyond the reach of libertarian law. In a libertarian society, one person's scruples can't be forced on another. However, people can "punish" victimless crimes with social sanctions: folks can shun prostitutes or blasphemers; businesses can refuse to serve them; pastors can denounce them from the pulpit--by name if they wish; etc.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2007, 12:09:07 PM »
OK.  You also refer to "US law."  With regards to divorce, there isn't really a US law.  Just state laws.  Correct? 

Of course, when you say "US law," you probably mean "how laws tend to work in the US." 

Not that I'm being picky.   smiley
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Len Budney

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2007, 12:18:42 PM »
OK.  You also refer to "US law."  With regards to divorce, there isn't really a US law.  Just state laws.  Correct? 

Right. But whenever I talk about the rights and wrongs of things, I have to make it clear that I'm really talking about right and wrong--not legal and illegal. Otherwise, it always seems like the conversation degenerates to where the other guy ends up saying, "It's legal to do X. End of story." On the topic of this thread, for example, I could find myself arguing that alimony is immoral, with someone who's arguing just as vigorously that it's legal.

The problem usually gets worse the longer the thread runs, because I start using phrases like "you can't" do this or that, just to mix it up. That almost always provokes the response, "Yes I can! It's perfectly legal!" It gets tedious to have to say, "from the standpoint of libertarian ethics based on the nonagression principle, it's immoral to..." So some sort of disclaimer that I'm not talking about "US law" seems to help.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2007, 12:20:32 PM »
I've had that problem myself. 
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Paddy

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2007, 07:06:12 PM »
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Alimony is the court forcing the husband to continue bearing his husbandly duties of supporting the family; yet the court doesn't force the wife to continue her wifely duties. They force the man to be a bread-winner, but they don't force the wife to be a partner or mother.
The rest of the story is that she gave him her youth, beauty and fertility, which should be amortized over her lifetime. Now that he's abandoned her, money is the only equalizer.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2007, 07:09:29 PM »
Didn't he give her his youth, good looks and, um, potency? 
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Paddy

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2007, 07:12:43 PM »
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Didn't he give her his youth, good looks and, um, potency?
You know very well this is a male dominated society (as have been all civilizations since the dawn of time, it's the natural order, dontcha know?)  Women have youth, beauty and fertility.  Men have money and power.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2007, 01:59:54 PM »
Having trouble sorting out whether or not you are serious. 
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SomeKid

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2007, 09:25:19 PM »
Riley,

There have been some female dominated civilizations, they simply were so poorly run they tend not to last very long.

Euclidean

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2007, 11:52:40 PM »
I don't see why the government should recognize marriage as a legal entity at all.  It's a religious institution, the meaning and scope of which varies from person to person.  To define it in any way violates the 1A.

Simply strike all laws from the records that deal with the treatment of married persons and treat everyone the same.  If something messy like a divorce happens, the word "divorce" should simply describe the status of the relationship, not a legal proceeding.  The courts can handle property/custody disputes if need be, all at the expense of the initiating party of course.

LadySmith

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2007, 12:17:04 AM »
Flip Side: I know of a woman who was in an abusive relationship. Hubby didn't want to work. She got tired of being beaten up and divorced him after doing the shelter & restraining order thing. Now she has to pay him alimony.
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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2007, 07:44:53 AM »
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I have neither.  But I am good looking  grin
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tyme

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2007, 08:18:35 AM »
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I don't see why the government should recognize marriage as a legal entity at all.  It's a religious institution, the meaning and scope of which varies from person to person.  To define it in any way violates the 1A.

+1.  The state's role should be to formulate and provide standard contracts and power-of-attorneys for things such as child rearing (committing to raise a child to age 18), medical decision-making if the partner is incapacitated, etc.

Leave asset division to the courts, but joint assets get split 50/50.  Alimony only if previously agreed upon by contract.  Child support terms after a split would be in the child-rearing contract.  I imagine some such child-rearing contracts would even require the parents to live together for the duration even if they don't like each other anymore.

People need to be more sensitive to what assets they hold jointly, and the courts need to do less independent decision-making about who should get what.  If two adults can't put a paragraph about asset splitting into writing before they start collecting joint assets, what business is it of the courts to determine -- later -- that one of them should get more than 50%?
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MechAg94

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Re: Every state should have 'no fault' divorce
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2007, 09:12:49 AM »
Flip Side: I know of a woman who was in an abusive relationship. Hubby didn't want to work. She got tired of being beaten up and divorced him after doing the shelter & restraining order thing. Now she has to pay him alimony.
She should get a better lawyer.

It cuts both ways though.  I am sure there are guys who got treated pretty badly and have to pay alimony.  That is why it sucks.
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