Looking for my first AR, :D Any ideas?

[freakazoid]

I've been looking at getting my first AR and I was wondering what people thought of the different companies? What are the pros and cons of each, and the usual price. I'm really looking for something that can withstand a lot of abuse with little maintenance and is accurate. Also the one thing that has made me leery about getting an AR type gun is the problem with needing a lot of cleaning because of the way he bolt works, but I have heard that there are some with a different  Which companies make them like that?
I have been looking at these DPMS guns that this store near me sells. What are your thought on those?

Thanks,

[SomeKid]

Everyone has different opinions.

You may want to look around at ar15.com. Also, when there, tell them you plan to buy tons of ammo through ammoman, your thread WILL get responses, so you can probably get your questions answered.

[Barbara]

I have a Rock River and like it.

[mtnbkr]

I built my own from the ground up.  I built a clone of Bushmater's Superlight (or whatever they call it) and saved a good $250 compared to what it was going for at gunshows and local shops.

It was extremely easy and educational. 

I clean mine every 400-500 rounds (2-3 trips to the range) when shooting Wolf ammo, which is fairly dirty.  What I run into at that point is cases sticking in the chamber.  I can either clean the chamber or switch to brass cased ammo, which runs fine even when the Wolf ammo is sticking.  That's probably more a statement about Wolf ammo than the reliability of the gun.

As for cleaning, I clean the bore like any other rifle.  I hit the chamber with an AR specific chamber brush.  While I'm doing that, I let the bolt assembly soak in Carbon Cutter.  After I'm done with the chamber, I dry the bolt and use a tiny bit of lube in all the appropriate places.  I don't even touch the lower receiver area.  I actually spend more time cleaning a revolver than my AR.  It's not all that hard or time consuming. 

Chris

[HankB]

I have a Bushmaster and like it. One caveat - when I got it, the barrel wasn't indexed properly; it took about 17 clicks of windage to get on target. A call to Bushmaster and they arranged to have UPS pick up the upper, they fixed it properly, and returned it, all within 2 weeks, at no cost to me. So they DO stand behind their product. (Reliablility was never an issue - the rifle just works.)

Colt's rifles also DO seem to work, but Heaven help you if you need warranty work done. (I had a 1911 Jammamatic that Colt's simply would NOT fix, so IMHO their warranties are meaningless . . . I won't have another Colt in my safe - period.) Also, many of the "civilian" ARs that Colt sells have a block in the lower receiver and non-milspec pins . . . and even after the AWB expired, they won't officially sell rifles with "evil" features like a flash hider to civilians; if you want those on a new Colt, you have to buy - and probably pay a premium for - an LEO market rifle. (Legal most places, but considered "gray market" since Colt's would prefer they only be sold through law enforcement channels.)

Armalite and Rock River AR's also seem to be pretty decent, and I've heard good things about Stag Arms and S&W's series of AR clones.

DPMS quality seems to be spotty - mostly OK, but I've met a more people who've had problems with this brand than the others mentioned.

The only REAL problem rifles on the AR platform seem to be some of the frankenrifles some people have put together out of gun show parts in order to save some money; if you build your own, use good parts. (Duh!)

Oh . . . and be sure to use quality magazines - USGI, Brownell's, etc. Beware of "refinished" or "used" magazines.

[Vile Nylons]

Since I didn't know enough about them but was interested I went down to Wisconsin where DMPS and other vendors were set up at a public rifle range. Lots of advertising, big splash weekend. Impressive rolling display van, knowlegeable and friendly DPMS dude, bright shiny brand new weapons ... but they wouldn't shoot. Kept jamming and wouldn't fire. So the DPMS guy and some local gun shop talent fussed around and finally got the .223 working which I fired. After about an hour the .308 was still not operational, so I left.

Maybe it's unreasonable of me, but I was not impressed. If the factory rep can't get brand new weapons to work on a high profile come-shoot-our-guns-weekend, how well are they going to work for me?   

[Len Budney]

Impressive rolling display van, knowlegeable and friendly DPMS dude, bright shiny brand new weapons ... but they wouldn't shoot. Kept jamming and wouldn't fire...

Were the AK guys in the next booth laughing and calling, "Hey, buddy! Over here!" 

--Len.

[bedlamite]

build it

[Vile Nylons]

The show was just starting [Fri. afternoon] so there was only one other vendor at the time. He had pistol, knives and other stuff. Yah, somebody selling AK would have done well. Lots of frustrated people standing around wanting to shoot. I'm sure DPMS got their problems fixed and went on to have a good weekend, but ....

I suppose I'm annoyed cause I drove 150 miles to fire their .308.

[Manedwolf]

Since I didn't know enough about them but was interested I went down to Wisconsin where DMPS and other vendors were set up at a public rifle range. Lots of advertising, big splash weekend. Impressive rolling display van, knowlegeable and friendly DPMS dude, bright shiny brand new weapons ... but they wouldn't shoot. Kept jamming and wouldn't fire. So the DPMS guy and some local gun shop talent fussed around and finally got the .223 working which I fired. After about an hour the .308 was still not operational, so I left.

Not gonna say anything snarky about ARs, not gonna say anything snarky about ARs... 

(yes, I do prefer 5.56 AKs.)

[Fly320s]

Freak,

You can probably do well with a 16 inch carbine from any of the major manufacturers.  Get a flat-top upper receiver (or one with a removable carry handle) so that you can have iron sights or optics as you choose.  If you're interested in longer-range shooting, or varmint hunting, you may wish to opt for a longer barrel, say 20" to 22".  For heavier/longer bullets, go with a faster twist rate such as 1 in 7".  Otherwise go with the general purpose 1 in 9" twist.

Like others have said, you can save money by assembling the rifle yourself.  Buy a stripped lower receiver (the "gun" part) from a dealer or individual and a lower receiver parts kit from almost anywhere.  Put it all together in about 20 minutes; no special tools required.  Buy an upper assembly (barrel attached, etc.) from any reputable vendor.  Slap the two halves together and get to shooting.

Spend your money and time on getting you and the rifle shooting correctly before you start hanging crap all over it.

Enjoy.

[Ron]

A lot of abuse and accurate.

The AR is a very accurate platform so any AR will be "accurate" usually. Not 1/2 moa accurate but usually more accurate than the trigger puller.

Chrome lined barrels are supposed to increase the reliability and ease cleaning of high round high abuse guns.

I have a Rock River 16" midlength carbine I really like. One buddy swears by his Bushmaster and another has a "Frankengun" he built himself.

Shooting primarily mil surp ammo I go 500-1000 rounds between cleanings. No stoppages or problems. I run my gun with a wet bolt assembly (a lot of lubrication,CLP). I do not have a chrome lined barrel and chamber so as you can see it is not a necessity. My next gun will have chrome lining just as an extra precaution and for as mentioned, the ease of cleaning.

The problems with the AR "shitting where it eats" is way overblown. Unless you are stuck in combat and you are going through thousands of rounds in between opportunities to clean it that isn't an issue IMHO.

[K Frame]

I built mine, too. In fact, Mtnbkr was the one who convinced me to build an AR in the first place.

I cheated a little bit, though, in that I found a really good deal on an assembled A-2 upper (no bolt), so I bought that.

I figure I ended up right in the same price ball park but cut down on the time a bit.

Finding a bolt was the hard part. I finally latched onto a Rock River or Eagle bolt, I can't remember which.

[Manedwolf]

I do have one, a Stag lower, which seems well-made, and an upper I'd found, a Colt A2 (made by Martin-Marietta, apparently) that someone had put a chromed bolt in.

It works okay, but it's pretty much just kept in the safe. I just don't find it as much fun as the AKs, and it's a lot more work to clean it.

But the Stag lower is pretty solid, I'll definitely say that. I have a few more sealed away in case of AWB.

[RevDisk]

I plan on buying my first AR15.  Sigh.  I know, I know.  But I know how to teach people on the platform, and that's what I want it for.  I spent 8 months straight training people near every day with M16A2's, so I have all my old material and techniques. 

So, who makes the best M16A2 ish knockoff?   I specifically want zero fancy features, and as close to M16A2 specs as possible.  Obviously sans 3rd burst.  Fulton Armory seems to be my best shot.

[Ron]

So, who makes the best M16A2 ish knockoff?

Are you looking for the same twist and barrel profile? The heavy barrels on the civilian guns have a different balance than the M16 from what I hear. Having said that I have never handled an M16 so I don't know that firsthand.

I think the military uses a lighter profile barrel (called govm't profile) and a 1/7 twist. The FA AR's looked like they had HBAR's with 1/9 twist.

You may want to look at CMMG and put together a rifle to your own specs. You choose the options and will receive it complete. Or you can order the components and put it together yourself.

http://www.cmmginc.com/

[freakazoid]

The problems with the AR "shitting where it eats" is way overblown. Unless you are stuck in combat and you are going through thousands of rounds in between opportunities to clean it that isn't an issue IMHO.

This is actually what I would like it for. As my SHTF gun, where cleaning would be very little. I thought about the AKs because of there super reliability but my huge problem with them is the lack of accuracy compared to the ARs and plus the .223 is a lot lighter.

You may want to look around at ar15.com. Also, when there, tell them you plan to buy tons of ammo through ammoman, your thread WILL get responses, so you can probably get your questions answered.

I tried to sign up but I can't use my hotmail address to sign up with.

On the building it yourself I'm not sure on what things I would need for it. Or what kind to get.

[Manedwolf]

This is actually what I would like it for. As my SHTF gun, where cleaning would be very little. I thought about the AKs because of there super reliability but my huge problem with them is the lack of accuracy compared to the ARs and plus the .223 is a lot lighter.

The much-maligned accuracy of the AK is pretty much due to the use of CHEAP AMMO or military surplus, which doesn't have to be overly accurate, just something like a 4" group, I believe. People compare a box of 7.62x39 Wolf from a milsurp AK to 5.56x45 Hornady's Special Ultra Performance National Match Ballistic Tip Dipped In Holy Water from not a line M-4, but from a floating-barreled match AR, and then declare the latter more accurate. Of course it will be.

Besides, there's 5.56 AKs now, both the Bulgarian Arsenal SLR-106 and Saiga Sporter...either as-is as a sporter, or converted by Tromix to be a Russian AK-101 configuration. Both have chromelined barrels, both have wonderful fit and finish and are quite accurate.

[wooderson]

I've got a Stag lower in the safe waiting for time and funds to build it. Will probably turn that one into a 20" target AR of some kind.

For a carbine, I'm thinking of a Defensive Edge SLR-15. Great reputation, reasonable prices.

[Euclidean]

That chart's a pretty good guide.  The thing is, a lot of that stuff might not be as important to you as it is to others.

For example:

4150 steel barrel - It is nice, but not strictly necessary for many (probably 95% of) people's purposes.

M16 Bolt carrier - same deal, plus you can always very easily upgrade this later (which is honestly true for many AR15 features).  Then you still have your old carrier so you have a spare, nifty.  Come to think of it this is exactly what I did...

M4 feedramps - I did my homework on this one.  Yeah it's nifty but it's kind of like a FLGR vs. a GI plug on a 1911: you might prefer it one way or the other but it's nothing to get upset about either way.

To me other things were much more important for various reasons:

Chrome Chamber
Chrome Bore
5.56 Chamber

And I wanted a 1:9 twist although if I had to do it over again I might go 1:8 or 1:7.

Anyway my point isn't do what I did, hell get it all if you can afford it, but do prioritize.  Some may balk at my thinking but you know what, I can't afford the truck with all the features I want either, nor can I afford all the power tools I might like, so I got the ones I really needed.

[Vile Nylons]

Although I wasn't the one doing the asking, I do appreciate all the good input. Can anyone elaborate on the head-space issue when using different manufacturers parts? Or is this just overblown in magazines?

[mtnbkr]

I don't think it's a big deal.  I used a Bushmaster barrel, LAR upper, and Rock River Arms bolt/carrier.  No problems at all.

Chris

[RevDisk]

This is actually what I would like it for. As my SHTF gun, where cleaning would be very little. I thought about the AKs because of there super reliability but my huge problem with them is the lack of accuracy compared to the ARs and plus the .223 is a lot lighter.

With a Finnish Rk95, I put 30 out of 30 rounds in a coffee can at circa 100m on full auto.   Decent ammo, decent rifle, accuracy isn't an issue with the AK platform.   Comparing a $350 stock Century Arms AK knockoff with surplus ammo to a $1.2k AR with commercial ammo is a bit unfair.

For a carbine, I'm thinking of a Defensive Edge SLR-15. Great reputation, reasonable prices.

http://www17.serrahost.com/servlet/defensive-edgenet/Detail?no=285

Hey now, that looks like a winner.  Aside from the weird looking trigger guard, it looks like an exact stock M16A2.  I'm not familiar with the company though.  Anyone actually shoot their product?

[wooderson]

I think Oleg owns one. I first heard about them on THR (before I was disappeared heh).

[Fly320s]

I think Oleg does have one.  I plan to buy one this year as well; the reviews have been excellent and I really like the specs and configuration.

The company is owned by "Sully" Sullivan.  He's a trainer/teacher if you haven't heard of him.

www.slr15.com/index.html