Author Topic: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police  (Read 11019 times)

lupinus

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2013, 09:49:00 PM »
That's what those young bucks get for stepping on his lawn!  =D
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Fitz

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2013, 10:26:16 PM »
To be fair to the deceased... I would unload on anyone gassing me too. 

I'd like to know more about how it went with the negotiator.

Yes, but if you're unloading on them for coming to the door , you pretty much deserve what you get
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never_retreat

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2013, 10:50:57 PM »
I'm a firm believer if he shot at a cop or any other person there is no reason to go into that house unless it is some sort of hostage situation period.
Wait them out. Its to easy for either party to be shot.
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MechAg94

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2013, 11:29:46 PM »
They never said whos house it was. A domestic dispuite makes me think it was his or he lived there.

Second, he's 107! Dehydration would probably knock him out in 24 hours (less, depending on medications)

Also, bullet holes don't do much for property value and gas canisters are notorious for starting house fires. So I guess it could come down to a question of which is more important to the owners. Do you want to wait it out, or does your insurance cover the repairs? ;)
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Levant

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2013, 12:04:40 AM »
Lethal response is for when there are no more options, not for when the checklist of justifications has been met.  Once more, the police rule by force rather than protect by wisdom.  What was the hurry?  Teargassing a 107 year old man was already an over response.  Not everyone who shoots at a cop has to die. 
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TommyGunn

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2013, 12:13:49 AM »
For those who think the cops shouldn't have returned fire when the geezer opened fire, what makes you think that he wouldn't have eventually hit and killed a policeman -- other than 20-20 hindsight? ???
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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2013, 12:31:41 AM »
  Not everyone who shoots at a cop has to die. 

Tell me, say you are the one being shot at. Are you honestly going to tell me you're going to take the Ghandi approach?

Or are you going to return fire?

I'll be damned if I'm going to sit down and be shot at. *expletive deleted* that *expletive deleted*, shoot at me and I will return fire. Effective, aimed fire at the maximum rate of fire I can sustain.

They were pretty damn nice by trying to negotiate and trying a less lethal option IMHO. He could have given it up at any time and didn't. Instead he chose the hard way out, and he got the hard way out.



And I will bet the news piece doesn't even tell a tenth of what really happened at the scene. They never do...





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zxcvbob

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2013, 01:14:58 AM »
They weren't shooting in self-defense, they were on the attack.  If he'd been hit and killed as they returned fire right at the beginning, I got no problem with it.

IMHO, when he shot at them the first time, they decided to kill him.  The whole SWAT thing and the teargas was just setting it up.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2013, 05:21:01 AM »
Ww need a volunteer corp. Folk like bob levant et al. Brave souls willing  to let folks shoot at em and "just wait" set the example. There should be a sign up sheet. Hurry its gonna fill up fast i am sure

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lupinus

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2013, 05:33:35 AM »
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Tell me, what are the cops parked outside supposed to do when he decides to toss a couple rounds at their car? How far back do you expect them to wait him out? In which case, how many people need to leave their homes till he decides it's time for his sponge bath?

Sorry, being an old nut job is still being a nut job. And whilst in the process of acting out this type of nuttiness, it's perfectly valid for the cops to respond as they did here, kick down your door, and shoot your ass.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Hutch

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2013, 06:59:10 AM »
I'm on BSL's team.  If the old guy gets shot in the initial encounter, where he starts the party, so be it.  If he's shooting randomly after the initial encounter, I get that there is a need to drive this to a conclusion.  As I read the story, they had a camera in the room before the last rodeo.  They shoulda waited him out.  It doesn't seem likely the geezer coulda exited a window or gone all Rambo on 'em.
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griz

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2013, 07:46:19 AM »
The cops were called for a domestic dispute issue.

When the cops arrived, old man shot at them.

Cops backed off, used negotiations and tear gas to calm things down.

Old man shot at cops some more.

Cops shot old man.

I don't see a problem here.


I bolded the part where I see an issue.  After the initial shots, things were at least currently calm, it was three hours after the old man shot at them the first time.  Tear gas is simply not a passive tool.  I'm in the wait out the geezer camp on this one.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2013, 08:45:09 AM »
or gone all Rambo on 'em.

you mean like shooting at the cops?  in a neighborhood?
if he was at my place i might see waiting him out  no close neighbors. grandpa?  not so much.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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HankB

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2013, 09:49:00 AM »
Wish we had more information on what prompted the "domestic disturbance" that started all this.

(I'm reminded of the deceased 90-something a month or two back who was taken down & killed because he didn't want to be operated on.)
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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2013, 10:28:10 AM »
Anyone here ever been in a stand-off situation?  I was on-scene at a shooting back in 1996, as a young prosecutor advising the investigation and assisting with warrants and such when a kid opened fire on the scene with a .22.  By kid, I mean a 17 year old.  Turned out it was the son of the original shooter.  Ultimately, kid was drunk and hit nothing but police cars, neighbor cars, and neighbor houses.  My boss and the police chief authorized a forced entry, and the kid was taken into custody with no injuries.  Listening to the discussion about entry vs. waiting him out came down to a concern that the shooter would hit someone.  A cop on scene, or a person in a nearby home.

The question for this discussion is this...do you force the neighbors out of their homes for their own safety while you let a shooter sit it out?  And for how long?  Think about how you would feel if a cop came to your door and said you have to leave because a man down the street is shooting at people.  You'd be pissed off and tell the cops to stop the guy and leave you in peace.  Or, what if they are "sitting and waiting it out" and the guy starts firing shots, and the shots end up hitting a kid down the street.  Get a ricochet off a cruiser and a neighbor gets hit and killed.  This is unfortunately a "needs of the many vs the needs of a few, or the one" situation.  For whatever reason, the man started shooting.  He reaped the consequences of his choices.
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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2013, 11:25:58 AM »
I dislike cops as much as the next guy, but "Let the crazy person who keeps shooting at you just hang out, and pray he doesn't decide to shoot more and kill a neighbor" is not a viable strategy. It's pretty ironic that folks keep saying he's mentally disturbed and thus highly unpredictable, and yet then asserting that there's no danger of him firing at the cops any more.
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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2013, 11:36:33 AM »
Suicide by cop.

I'm assuming the negotiator attempted to get him to lay down his gun and be arrested without further physical violence and he declined.

Does anyone in the USA think getting in a firefight with cops is going to end any differently than being hauled out in a body bag?
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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2013, 12:08:36 PM »
Not sure where I fall on this one. Could go either way.

I agree that it was suicide by cop, for whatever reason. I wish they would have waited him out, but the configuration of the property may have been such that he could take shots at them from cover and was still presenting a threat even in his room.

A man who will keep shooting even after he's been gassed is a man who would try and sneak to the window and get a shot off, even if the window is covered from the outside.
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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2013, 01:44:45 PM »
No responsible shooter who cares about harming innocents is going to shoot out a window or door without concern for what else he might hit besides "just" a cop. The guy fired at people and had to be subdued.
Also, the fact that a town with a population of 50k even HAS a negotiator is surprising. How much experience this person has is questionable. I'd say it's a good bet that at 107, the subject was WELL aware of what he had to lose in this particular gun battle (not dying a free man) and knew exactly what was going to happen to him, regardless of his age, when he opened fire on LE.

There was no "good" side to be on in this situation.
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mtnbkr

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2013, 01:46:41 PM »
They should have just asked the man about his (great) grandkids. 

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2013, 02:31:45 PM »
My plan if someone shoots at me is to just hunker down and hope they stop
Fitz

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Lee

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2013, 03:09:01 PM »
They shoulda tossed a can of Ensure in there.

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2013, 08:56:11 PM »
You know all those "OG" & "Original Gangster" tattoos and such?  They all refer to him, as HE was the original gangster.



Got no problems with the cops on this one. 
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Hutch

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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2013, 09:18:06 PM »
or gone all Rambo on 'em.

you mean like shooting at the cops?  in a neighborhood?
if he was at my place i might see waiting him out  no close neighbors. grandpa?  not so much.
Like, re-starting the engagement his own self, bursting thru windows to land in a Shatner-roll, THAT sort of Rambo.  C'mon, man, d'ye really think that, absent more gunfire from Grampa, tear gas and a flash-bang was called for?  Fer Chrissake, the man was a hundred and seven years old!!!  give him an hour or ten to doze off, or forget he's got a gun.  Gee...
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Re: 107 year old man dies in shootout with police
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2013, 10:00:47 PM »
Did the cops know he was 107?
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