107 year old man dies in shootout with police

[zxcvbob]

Did the cops know he was 107?

They should have know he was ancient after they set up the camera, if not before.

[Levant]

For those who think the cops shouldn't have returned fire when the geezer opened fire, what makes you think that he wouldn't have eventually hit and killed a policeman -- other than 20-20 hindsight?

Tell me, say you are the one being shot at. Are you honestly going to tell me you're going to take the Ghandi approach?

Or are you going to return fire?

I'll be damned if I'm going to sit down and be shot at. *expletive deleted* that *expletive deleted*, shoot at me and I will return fire. Effective, aimed fire at the maximum rate of fire I can sustain.

They were pretty damn nice by trying to negotiate and trying a less lethal option IMHO. He could have given it up at any time and didn't. Instead he chose the hard way out, and he got the hard way out.

And I will bet the news piece doesn't even tell a tenth of what really happened at the scene. They never do...

He shot through the door and the first cops retreated and called SWAT.  There was no reason to approach again.  THey went in with tear gas when, according to their reports, negotiations failed.  How do negotiations fail?  That's not a negotiation if it fails in 4 hours, that's an ultimatum.  There are standoffs all over this country, on nearly a daily basis, that go longer than 4 hours.  That failure is only a failure on the part of the police.

Had he been actively targeting them while they were standing off then they would have to kill him but he only shot when approached.  So don't approach. 

It's a case of the police having to prove, I think, that you follow orders or else.

[Pharmacology]

Overtime for all those Swat guys adds up.  Can't break the budget waiting for the old guy to fall asleep.   

I am kind of surprised they haven't pushed to develop a "happy" gas as described in Brave New World. 

lol.

Alfa group knows a thing or two about that.

[cordex]

Just wait it out?

How many cops should be sitting on the house waiting? Overtime or pulled off the road? Should you keep SWAT onsite in case he starts taking shots again and you need to move quickly? Medical? Fire?

Should neighbors be displaced? How far out should you push the cordon? How long can you reasonably expect to keep people out of their own homes? Do you let some get in to get important medicines, stuff for work, etc? If so, do you have to send an officer with them to babysit?

Should roads be blocked off? How many additional cops will you need to man the roadblocks? Will they be overtime or pulled off the road?

Assuming the guy doesn't give up or go to sleep in a few hours, when do you finally order guys through the door? If he looks like he's sleeping do you just send a Uniform through and hope for the best or do you use SWAT?

While you have most of your resources parked at one guy's house, how do you handle the other calls that come in?  "Sorry, we're waiting for a trigger-happy grandpa to go to sleep.  Good luck with your problem."

There's more to waiting than just waiting. It is good and appropriate to give some situations more time, but in a case like this the guy punched his own ticket.  We're not talking about someone who was just threatening to hurt himself or just threatening to come kick someone's dog.  He threatened a couple of folks with a gun, then actually shot at two police officers when they announced themselves.  He then had three hours during which he had every opportunity to stop being a jackass.  He didn't.

The only thing that makes this case even worthy of comment is the guy's age, and I'm not sure why that entitles him to special treatment after he tries to kill folks.  I doubt many of you would be calling for a police siege of indeterminate length if the guy were 17 years old but the situation was otherwise identical.  Sure, the 17 year old might be able to stay awake a little longer, but he'll go to sleep eventually, and is his life really worth less?  Indeed, if we're willing to spend the extra money and time to give a 107 year old attempted murderer a better chance at living another year or two, why not spend many times that to give a 17 year old shooter a chance at 90 more years?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278917/2/Update-Roommate-speaks-about-SWAT-standoff-that-killed-107-year-old

not his first time
i think he was old and tired
this was an end

[Ned Hamford]

http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278917/2/Update-Roommate-speaks-about-SWAT-standoff-that-killed-107-year-old

Ahhh, so it was the police enforcing an illegal eviction with deadly force.   

Sounds like the man was just standing his ground.   

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.thv11.com/video/default.aspx?bctid=2659425987001&odyssey=mod|tvideo|endslate
  i take it you just skimmed the piece ned?  i hope

[Ned Hamford]

http://www.thv11.com/video/default.aspx?bctid=2659425987001&odyssey=mod|tvideo|endslate
  i take it you just skimmed the piece ned?  i hope

Schools today (or at least when I was going to them) teach a 'critical lens' theory of analysis.  To read a piece from various perspectives and positions, and then present from one of them.  As I've already disclaimed with lack of firsthand knowledge, I've no problem with playing devil's advocate for the myriad of alternatives.  It also happens my own personal heart of heart views falls into a position of police being peace officers and not enforcers; and that on occasion the heroic assumptions that get the parades, monuments, and dental plans come with assuming risks that I wouldn't expect a random citizen to entertain.  And that is a position I hold despite having family members in law enforcement who have been in combat cross situations. 

This interview, by the critical lens, does nothing but support my position.

Why couldn't they get away from the man's door?  He just wanted to sleep. 

Listening to the interview I can't say I'm surprised.  Folks that share some culpability in the chain of events present themselves as having no responsibility.  Had she let him take his desired nap instead of banging on the door and calling the police, its possible the incident never would have happened.  Officer Officer, I've threatened to physically assault and kidnap a man and he said he would resist with force to the utmost of his ability.  We will send over armed men immediately on your behalf.  I believe the social workers would call these stressers.

We do know now that the man was hard of hearing and feared for his safety.  I don't think its a jump to imagine a 107 year old doesn't think himself a physical match for anyone.  It sounds like he feared being abducted and forced to live somewhere else due to what he perceived as threats from his family. 

With age often comes diminished capacity along with the diminished physical ability.  The stripping of independence is a difficult transition that many families have not the patience to permit at a pace suitable to the diminished.  This does seem like it was an avoidable tragedy.  Almost all human events are.  Some are more avoidable than others and it sounds like better sharing of knowledge, training, and patience would have done the job here.  That doesn't mean that a legal wrong was done; but things could have been done differently for better results; the avoidance getting easier and easier the further back you go. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

so you did skim?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

missed prior incident? with son?