The Cuban medical system

[Hawkmoon]

Considering the economic sanctions that country has faced, its economy and delivery of health, housing, and education is miraculous.  The elites clearly aren't milking their positions to anything like the degree it happens elsewhere in Latin America.

R u serious?

http://nypost.com/2015/05/10/inside-fidel-castros-luxurious-life-on-his-secret-island-getaway/

[De Selby]

R u serious?

http://nypost.com/2015/05/10/inside-fidel-castros-luxurious-life-on-his-secret-island-getaway/

This is a further example.  What passes as fact and evidence is just a joke - claims by a dissident bodyguard (does anyone have some proof he was) in a news article are good enough.

Did some quick google fact checking of that article.

Here's the place supposedly a private villa for Castro:  https://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/lighthouse/photos/Caribbean/CayoPiedras/CayoPiedras.htm

It's also listed on Tripadvisor as an underwater park.

Seems a bit odd for a dictators secret lair, no?

[Fly320s]

I have to agree with De Selby, at least in regards to the information we get from the MSM.  We complain all day and night that the MSM doesn't tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but the moment we hear the MSM say something we agree with, then we are like, "Yeah!  I told you so."

The Cuban medical system probably works well enough for Cuba and Cubans, but it isn't something we should emulate here in the US.

[makattak]

The Cuban medical system probably works well enough for Cuba and Cubans, but it isn't something we should emulate here in the US.

The Cuban medical system (for elites) clearly works better than the same (for elites) in Venezuela.* I'm not really sure what other facts can be garnered from a country ruled by a dictator who controls access to information.


*I can say this affirmatively because the Venezuelan dictator, who ALSO didn't get the proper death he deserved, went to Cuba when he was trying to save his own pitiful life.

[MechAg94]

I have to agree with De Selby, at least in regards to the information we get from the MSM.  We complain all day and night that the MSM doesn't tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but the moment we hear the MSM say something we agree with, then we are like, "Yeah!  I told you so."

The Cuban medical system probably works well enough for Cuba and Cubans, but it isn't something we should emulate here in the US.

The type of low level care mentioned in the article would probably work well for most Americans also until it doesn't and they need something more.  Nurses could do a lot of the stuff they are talking about.  There are likely Cubans who need more care than that, but do they have it if they need it? 

As far as better nutrition, do Cubans have a choice in the matter?  Can they go to a grocery store and buy whatever they want in whatever quantity they can afford?  It seems to me that good nutrition that is enforced by the govt and by poverty isn't the same thing.  We at least have a choice. 

[tokugawa]

https://gborjas.org/2016/11/26/vignettes-from-a-communist-utopia/

http://www.city-journal.org/html/last-communist-city-13649.html

A couple of articles for your perusal. 

 every time I hear excuses about Cuban poverty, they are associated with this complaint-
  "well, what do you expect, the US had an embargo on them for 50 years".

What about the rest of the world that did not have an embargo on them? Could they not trade with them? or is the US capitalist success story so immense that every other country in the world fades into insignificance by comparison?

[TommyGunn]

Maybe they are just playing "revolutionary and dissident" and will go have a cool mojito afterwards.

Haha, man you can't be serious.  Do you know anything about that photo, like its date, names of people in it, etc?  Was the dead guy even an alleged dissident?  

This is as silly as me posting photos of Abu Ghraib and saying "some freedom there - they shock your balls in america if you disagree."

This really just proves the point.  The Kool Aid has been poured so many times on this in your school lunches that a rational, fact based evaluation of the faults and successes of the regime in Cuba is just impossible.  Posting photos from a war in the 50's suffices as evidence of how the regime works.

They're obviously playing "cops and robbers!!!''

I don't think anyone knows exactly how many people Castro has had "disappeared" over his years as El Jefe de Cuba.  
What I'd invite you to do is to visit Miami Florida and visit some of those Cuban imigres and ask them .... especially if you can find some of the older ones.  
But I should warn you to be VERY VERY CAREFUL what you say about Castro and the regime.  They may not like your attitude toward Castro .... and some of them may not be really shy about telling you how they feel .... or showing you how they feel .....
(let's all play nice now).

[dogmush]

Haha, man you can't be serious.  Do you know anything about that photo, like its date, names of people in it, etc?  Was the dead guy even an alleged dissident? 

This is as silly as me posting photos of Abu Ghraib and saying "some freedom there - they shock your balls in america if you disagree."

This really just proves the point.  The Kool Aid has been poured so many times on this in your school lunches that a rational, fact based evaluation of the faults and successes of the regime in Cuba is just impossible.  Posting photos from a war in the 50's suffices as evidence of how the regime works.

This argument is so inane and stupid as to approach insulting.  I posted a 50 year old photo from the revolution because I didn't think someone with your education would actually be as ignorant as you apparently are.  I also don't need to back up common knowledge with cited sources.  I live in FL, and am friends and coworkers with both first and second generation Cubans.  People who still talk with their family on the island, and who can and do give first hand accounts of people jailed, executed , or just dissapeared by the Cuban government.  It still happens to this day.

I have also personally been to Cuba, as well as a majority of the other islands in the Caribbean.  So I speak of conditions in those countries from first hand knowledge, actually spending time there rebuilding them, and talking with the people that live there. Entertainingly, I was also in Moscow in 1993 so I got to talk to THOSE communists as well about what life under communism actually is, rather then what it was advertised as.

I actually really hope this is part of some ongoing trolling campaign to remind us that social programs do sometimes work and hone your verbal arguing skills.  If you are actually this mind numbingly ignorant of the history and outcomes of social systems in the 20th century, I fear all hope maybe lost for you.

[tokugawa]

They're obviously playing "cops and robbers!!!''

I don't think anyone knows exactly how many people Castro has had "disappeared" over his years as El Jefe de Cuba.  
What I'd invite you to do is to visit Miami Florida and visit some of those Cuban imigres and ask them .... especially if you can find some of the older ones.  
But I should warn you to be VERY VERY CAREFUL what you say about Castro and the regime.  They may not like your attitude toward Castro .... and some of them may not be really shy about telling you how they feel .... or showing you how they feel .....
(let's all play nice now).

I read something on this recently, somebody had complied numbers of the murdered- can't remember the numbers save one- relative  to the US population, it was the equivalent of about 680,000.

[tokugawa]

One of the things that is to me, as a "maker",  especially horrifying, is the gangs of state thugs who do random searches to find "unauthorized" stuff, like a chicken, or extra eggs, or anything else that someone through their efforts acquired. That, and the "Maximum" wage, are just hellish.

We should have invaded Cuba in 1960, shot all the commies, and established a Republic.

[White Horseradish]

I've seen the low infant mortality claim in every discussion about Cuba. I am not inclined to put faith in it.  I have intimate knowledge of how statistics are made in the ComBloc.  A former member of my family was a programmer working on a reporting package for a low-level Soviet government agency. When the numbers didn't look right, the project team was ordered to hard-code the numbers that would be acceptable to the higher-level bureaucrats.

I would also put it out there that when Castro himself needed top shelf medical care, he invited doctors from Israel, rather than rely on the Cuban ones.

Excluding police from the Batista government (most of whom actually were torturers and war criminals), how many people have been executed in Cuba?

How many is an acceptable number?

Would you include people who drowned trying to escape Cuba as victims of the regime, or do you think those were just elaborate suicides?

[De Selby]

This argument is so inane and stupid as to approach insulting.  I posted a 50 year old photo from the revolution because I didn't think someone with your education would actually be as ignorant as you apparently are.  I also don't need to back up common knowledge with cited sources.  I live in FL, and am friends and coworkers with both first and second generation Cubans.  People who still talk with their family on the island, and who can and do give first hand accounts of people jailed, executed , or just dissapeared by the Cuban government.  It still happens to this day.

I have also personally been to Cuba, as well as a majority of the other islands in the Caribbean.  So I speak of conditions in those countries from first hand knowledge, actually spending time there rebuilding them, and talking with the people that live there. Entertainingly, I was also in Moscow in 1993 so I got to talk to THOSE communists as well about what life under communism actually is, rather then what it was advertised as.

I actually really hope this is part of some ongoing trolling campaign to remind us that social programs do sometimes work and hone your verbal arguing skills.  If you are actually this mind numbingly ignorant of the history and outcomes of social systems in the 20th century, I fear all hope maybe lost for you.

To illustrate the point:  do you even know if the shooter in the photo is a revolutionary???  How do you know that isn't a revolutionary lying on the ground?

My point is that for all this knowledge of Cuba, surely there must be a statistic or measure you can throw out there to compare.  ranting or accusing me of trolling because I pointed out that you aren't actually making a fact based claim (like the article) really just reinforces that the years of propaganda have made this an emotional issue (commies are evil!) and not a factual one (like the article in the OP, which cites some health outcomes of their system).

[De Selby]

https://gborjas.org/2016/11/26/vignettes-from-a-communist-utopia/

http://www.city-journal.org/html/last-communist-city-13649.html

A couple of articles for your perusal. 

 every time I hear excuses about Cuban poverty, they are associated with this complaint-
  "well, what do you expect, the US had an embargo on them for 50 years".

What about the rest of the world that did not have an embargo on them? Could they not trade with them? or is the US capitalist success story so immense that every other country in the world fades into insignificance by comparison?

The rest of the world not subject to US rules???  Do you understand ow the embargo worked?

I like how vignettes become evidence when we don't like the target.

[makattak]

I've seen the low infant mortality claim in every discussion about Cuba. I am not inclined to put faith in it.  

The other problem is that most other countries use a different measure for infant mortality.

U.S.: the baby takes one breath of air outside the womb and then dies- infant mortality.

Rest of the world: the baby dies because a microwave was dropped on it in the first month of life- stillborn.

So, I wonder why we seem to have a much higher infant mortality?

[Fly320s]

No one did a Google image search?

Here is the first link I found:  http://www.therealcuba.com/?page_id=55

The rest of the links from my search.

https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZiseUR8IcbnNfM762yK2zEPP0Sd7ekjaitpCel1URfD9KowtUAoN4Yzo5YL1ky0JfKGxmyDrtO8pm_1WaBkINehb_1YssNY9B6F8I5RifT5QdgcOlVUX3CJ8GxPzos6kC7p3id7IeOF3TZgkhjMpf2P-5BTldWhb8TrzoFwBN4mL9QucwF5ODcak7Vme7pou-IUPJOO_1Rb4rqKK61gEBgv0oYgGh-fPYVUClmEyLlToUgzlcfTp1q8jvMXUqoHXs1b2QLF3oBlr2iV5D9E9xCYzjPLOrkruNWPkXkl7X2B9P5922S65V5F5LInDL13NdE4JegpuMHb8yQmFk9TqrFLtUKnvgHX6ri4rh8hgO_18I-hEELEJF0BZxSceb3JC4j7YCgg_14edOE3QgNCnsILHvHUax96TII2s4pIhfTRtDmO4JUzxEgHtxtM0SDIaLXGD-sEDwdF13Ne7poIj3YTi0Qqwjuybo6g7xs9oZCHXlVaD4GP0VhaNds_1YNrb7wBHMRbJWCdagvL6Blz2Mt1AF_1YyzLFp3cXd50GY6NHhVOCHPPGKFiuLozFzTkdzPXrJyXN9bcisyn2wJB8MHHfgB-hFOy22KFQGepSiqcUvQQdHrlnMDGu8LbVeTFcwrc8qTkBwOhKMliUP0ZsGYKPzvZ6TqnOoHimdYaFo-ic5869zqPNfg0Hs4FF1mxA5qvagitbUWAKt_11NP_17Fu4reRVKa9o4VOnWCfjD-V0tmDUBu8_1wL4keCm8UJK6eHpmkixBrlHm6_1Qr8M1xOKmL8JWsrGnDOXCXNoZlqOTB9BET9qBFldFS8BmB5XKNOi5FLjr5jdBH4Q4abNHvZUpLNa-r5FiWMs98Ajju1Ci3Js3C5cF25ZZOgUHwcNQCJGPS76fyhEZzeI0FRgZ22WyhRMBfk49DidSpVPWLF2X7LZtz09EXd8dyW5WYFptLtMMfofEJB67laZyaqUmw63rqE7V34TKVx0_1u2jJQOc3ILlRZ6dIUdWLuCH2M5NxLcKKRh5jHs5-44S2tiWhFsGV8PKw5LVbEyF1FOLkflDtrsQD5FTZBjfAHrG84zvRnxIHs7kv7HAh3mK95Lq87FrgkIx4--eOTnFI4WGkijcEiTU72saTtgp5ro2YKm_1PKNipPWSI2SwpvpWfYJu04XV4LfeNdmcxZajHI0nxTH1semabstu1pTWnHX2SrtSOxdLo_1nDiJ1QQQ6JCUNfquyLGafS9kzP_1kti2x-XiT8VEPnxcPlRjJX9ZEF_10tkTx1y8w42I1eiQ4x2oP_1IbauiK4Oh0ctrkyPg_1OF5VKk7LhogFNLfh_1gZ4-d--sHRZGksXhb1uNnlzghZNHcPmW4JlZ5_1YB8hNxb2uXxUk2YR46keO_1Bw8xZcI04LVjwV-NPYy6mHvrGELN_1pId0UbNsG_1n0SPZKMlXZJuEB1dkLUvrM3SWT1VLiGIkN3PumY3D01zyM297-4nuYH7TzkuHjP73cryqsJYP_19W0ifIByIHGi7bFRFLItLKDcPSBHZ9OKzNgI5ARRLUtXS1Km27pHilXVAzD04gVz8b-YJEKXXzcJkvfGU7VVgjxGjoEJos7z0vGubZOzXy4MLgR5JF-yGbGeLYpysMpL45xcXwYLm-rvFzTxbfP-N4oi5B6aK7b_1cQHSm_1lU6qQ1MHdmpqAc8B5WXPaRUgWV5vMcqu9yk5RpsfyskSlKtlT1zbI_1jKy8jOo6zKIOlPlnuNlqD

[tokugawa]

The rest of the world not subject to US rules???  Do you understand ow the embargo worked?

I like how vignettes become evidence when we don't like the target.

 DeSelby-  talking with you is like arguing with a conspiracy fanatic,  where no matter what is presented, it is faked or lies.  So far, you have managed to dismiss the MSM comments on Cuba, amazing as they are ,coming from a leftist press corps that has largely kissed Castros ass for fifty years, dismissed personal accounts of refugees who suffered, and dismissed accounts of well respected reporters who have actually been there.  Just out of curiosity, is there ANY evidence of Castro's murderous activities that you would accept?  

 Your statement- "I like how vignettes become evidence when we don't like the target." can be perfectly inverted  to  "no evidence is considered when we love the target".  yeah , sure, you can chip at this account or that one, etc, but there are THOUSANDS of accounts from people with direct living experience of this piece of commie filth and the atrocities he had forced on the Cuban people- do you assert they are ALL lying?
  
 About the embargo- it was on US Cuba trade. I have not seen that it was binding on third parties- certainly the USSR poured a ton of direct money there. And many countries had tourism to Cuba, etc.  I think the embargo is an excuse for the utter failure of a deranged communist police state.
 
 

 

[BlueStarLizzard]

The other problem is that most other countries use a different measure for infant mortality.

U.S.: the baby takes one breath of air outside the womb and then dies- infant mortality.

Rest of the world: the baby dies because a microwave was dropped on it in the first month of life- stillborn.

So, I wonder why we seem to have a much higher infant mortality?

Also, consider the ages and health of the mothers.

I doubt Cuba has a lot of options for fertility treatments and high risk pregnancies. First world countries have woman who get pregnant and carry to term that would have never had even come close to doing so naturally. Woman in first world countries often wait until they are older to have children which increases risk of health problems for the baby, some of which would not show up or be a problem until the child was significantly older.

With 50 years to weed out the gene pool and significantly less high risk pregnancies even happening, I would not be surprised that the population was just healthier.
That doesn't mean they have better health care. It just means they don't need as much health care.

[De Selby]

No one did a Google image search?

Here is the first link I found:  http://www.therealcuba.com/?page_id=55

The rest of the links from my search.

https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZiseUR8IcbnNfM762yK2zEPP0Sd7ekjaitpCel1URfD9KowtUAoN4Yzo5YL1ky0JfKGxmyDrtO8pm_1WaBkINehb_1YssNY9B6F8I5RifT5QdgcOlVUX3CJ8GxPzos6kC7p3id7IeOF3TZgkhjMpf2P-5BTldWhb8TrzoFwBN4mL9QucwF5ODcak7Vme7pou-IUPJOO_1Rb4rqKK61gEBgv0oYgGh-fPYVUClmEyLlToUgzlcfTp1q8jvMXUqoHXs1b2QLF3oBlr2iV5D9E9xCYzjPLOrkruNWPkXkl7X2B9P5922S65V5F5LInDL13NdE4JegpuMHb8yQmFk9TqrFLtUKnvgHX6ri4rh8hgO_18I-hEELEJF0BZxSceb3JC4j7YCgg_14edOE3QgNCnsILHvHUax96TII2s4pIhfTRtDmO4JUzxEgHtxtM0SDIaLXGD-sEDwdF13Ne7poIj3YTi0Qqwjuybo6g7xs9oZCHXlVaD4GP0VhaNds_1YNrb7wBHMRbJWCdagvL6Blz2Mt1AF_1YyzLFp3cXd50GY6NHhVOCHPPGKFiuLozFzTkdzPXrJyXN9bcisyn2wJB8MHHfgB-hFOy22KFQGepSiqcUvQQdHrlnMDGu8LbVeTFcwrc8qTkBwOhKMliUP0ZsGYKPzvZ6TqnOoHimdYaFo-ic5869zqPNfg0Hs4FF1mxA5qvagitbUWAKt_11NP_17Fu4reRVKa9o4VOnWCfjD-V0tmDUBu8_1wL4keCm8UJK6eHpmkixBrlHm6_1Qr8M1xOKmL8JWsrGnDOXCXNoZlqOTB9BET9qBFldFS8BmB5XKNOi5FLjr5jdBH4Q4abNHvZUpLNa-r5FiWMs98Ajju1Ci3Js3C5cF25ZZOgUHwcNQCJGPS76fyhEZzeI0FRgZ22WyhRMBfk49DidSpVPWLF2X7LZtz09EXd8dyW5WYFptLtMMfofEJB67laZyaqUmw63rqE7V34TKVx0_1u2jJQOc3ILlRZ6dIUdWLuCH2M5NxLcKKRh5jHs5-44S2tiWhFsGV8PKw5LVbEyF1FOLkflDtrsQD5FTZBjfAHrG84zvRnxIHs7kv7HAh3mK95Lq87FrgkIx4--eOTnFI4WGkijcEiTU72saTtgp5ro2YKm_1PKNipPWSI2SwpvpWfYJu04XV4LfeNdmcxZajHI0nxTH1semabstu1pTWnHX2SrtSOxdLo_1nDiJ1QQQ6JCUNfquyLGafS9kzP_1kti2x-XiT8VEPnxcPlRjJX9ZEF_10tkTx1y8w42I1eiQ4x2oP_1IbauiK4Oh0ctrkyPg_1OF5VKk7LhogFNLfh_1gZ4-d--sHRZGksXhb1uNnlzghZNHcPmW4JlZ5_1YB8hNxb2uXxUk2YR46keO_1Bw8xZcI04LVjwV-NPYy6mHvrGELN_1pId0UbNsG_1n0SPZKMlXZJuEB1dkLUvrM3SWT1VLiGIkN3PumY3D01zyM297-4nuYH7TzkuHjP73cryqsJYP_19W0ifIByIHGi7bFRFLItLKDcPSBHZ9OKzNgI5ARRLUtXS1Km27pHilXVAzD04gVz8b-YJEKXXzcJkvfGU7VVgjxGjoEJos7z0vGubZOzXy4MLgR5JF-yGbGeLYpysMpL45xcXwYLm-rvFzTxbfP-N4oi5B6aK7b_1cQHSm_1lU6qQ1MHdmpqAc8B5WXPaRUgWV5vMcqu9yk5RpsfyskSlKtlT1zbI_1jKy8jOo6zKIOlPlnuNlqD

That link is instructive as to what's wrong with the public discourse on Cuba.

The centrepiece of brutality claims at that link is about perhaps the most murderous figure In the entirety of Cuba's history.  That police chief tortured and killed so many people to argue about him being shot with a trial is equivalent to arguing that Al Zarqawi was brutally murdered.

But you don't get that context there.  It's all about the emotive hating of commies, not facts.

[TommyGunn]

That link is instructive as to what's wrong with the public discourse on Cuba.

The centrepiece of brutality claims at that link is about perhaps the most murderous figure In the entirety of Cuba's history.  That police chief tortured and killed so many people to argue about him being shot with a trial is equivalent to arguing that Al Zarqawi was brutally murdered.

But you don't get that context there.  It's all about the emotive hating of commies, not facts.

 
Do you not think it is pretty rational  to hate a political ideology with such a vast record of death, persecution and oppression to its name?

[tokugawa]

Yeah, who could possibly hate those Communists, Guardians of Equality?

 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/drawings-gulag-danzig-baldaev-review

 Do an image search, if you have the stomach for it.

 I despise commies.  Murderous torturing filth. Exactly like the National Socialist Workers Party except for name.

[Scout26]

And don't forget that some animals are more equal than others...

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/11/30/leftist-praise-fidel-castro-family-struggles-secure-million-dollar-fortune/

Forbes says Fidel was worth $900 million. They estimate that Raul is worth $100 million dollars. 

[De Selby]

And don't forget that some animals are more equal than others...

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/11/30/leftist-praise-fidel-castro-family-struggles-secure-million-dollar-fortune/

Forbes says Fidel was worth $900 million. They estimate that Raul is worth $100 million dollars. 

Yeah.  They're counting much of the Cuban economy as his personal wealth.  That piece has been much criticised for its lack of facts over the years.

[De Selby]

Yeah, who could possibly hate those Communists, Guardians of Equality?

 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/drawings-gulag-danzig-baldaev-review

 Do an image search, if you have the stomach for it.

 I despise commies.  Murderous torturing filth. Exactly like the National Socialist Workers Party except for name.

Do you hate America when people post photos of lynchigs from the 60's?

[tokugawa]

Do you hate America when people post photos of lynchigs from the 60's?

  Equate illegal and scarce murder with State sanctioned mass murder.  Are you really that stupid?

  I'm done with this- you are either a moron, or a troll.

[dogmush]

To illustrate the point:  do you even know if the shooter in the photo is a revolutionary???  How do you know that isn't a revolutionary lying on the ground?

Uhh.....I didn't pick that photo at random.  It's a relatively famous photo of a Cpt being executed by Rene Cruz during the revolution.  And it works because it's indicative of the way the Castro government has handled justice and punishment for 50 or so years.  It's almost as if you don't actually know anything about Cuba, and are just arguing based on something you read once.........

I'm starting to realize that you have NO idea what you're talking about here.  You have no knowledge or context of how Communism is actually practiced in the real world, and what happens when it's tried.  Pull your head out of Wikipedia and your dumbass college texts and listen to your elders that have actually SEEN Communism in the real world, in multiple places, and under multiple governments.

The theory and practice of Communism is Evil. This is not an emotional argument, or random pushing of our feelz.  This is considered opinion based on, for many of us on this board, first hand experience with the practice and first hand discussions and friendships with the people that lived it.  

I'm trying to remain polite in adherence to the forum rules, but really:  You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, you should stop now.

ETA:

That link is instructive as to what's wrong with the public discourse on Cuba.

Actually this link is instructive as to what's wrong with the discourse. 

Naive folks making excuses for evil men so they can try and push an agenda.