Reuters is reporting that Saddam Hussein has been hanged.

[CAnnoneer]

Very sound philosophical base for civilization. Down that path, should last another ten years. At least.

Are you really that naive or are you pulling our leg?

All civilizations survived predominantly upon the efforts of a minority of tough unsqueamish men that were willing to do the expedient. Whenever for whatever reason they were not around, things went downhill for the majority made of blissfully ignorant "nice people" who only benefited from the minority's efforts.

Yes, a good many germans 

Hehe. The usual reference to nazis, whenever anybody suggests anything other than hotels, candy, restaurant food, and free qu'rans for hardcore murderers. Now that is the basis of civilization's longevity! You make me laugh, Turkleton!

Right here at home "terrorist" and "terrorism" are terms have been and are being inserted into a number of more than questionable legislative acts.

There is no reason why we cannot fight homegrown fascists, homegrown liberals, and foreign terrorists at the same time. And we don't even need to become anarchists to do it.

[LAK]

CAnnoneer

Are you really that naive or are you pulling our leg?

All civilizations survived predominantly upon the efforts of a minority of tough unsqueamish men that were willing to do the expedient. Whenever for whatever reason they were not around, things went downhill for the majority made of blissfully ignorant "nice people" who only benefited from the minority's efforts.

Being tough and unsqueamish about killing in the course of an actual war, in self defense, or making morally underpinned choices between the death of a few to save many is one thing; murder is something else. The idea that it is "necessary" - and therefore "justifiable" to murder to protect a nation is to effectively commit suicide. It may take a few years, but suicide it is.

In wars, the "unsqeamish and tough" people who violate their own natural law and conscience this way usually - not always, but usually - become the first and worst psychological casualties. Much the same as people that kill in the spirit of vengeance or some perverse enjoyment. 

Hehe. The usual reference to nazis, whenever anybody suggests anything other than hotels, candy, restaurant food, and free qu'rans for hardcore murderers. Now that is the basis of civilization's longevity! You make me laugh, Turkleton!

The parallel here is rather too close. Germany and it's people were as civilized, sophisticated and educated as any of their other european brothers. The way by which they were led down the path to their ultimate end as a nation was not some fluke or stroke of magic.

There is no reason why we cannot fight homegrown fascists, homegrown liberals, and foreign terrorists at the same time. And we don't even need to become anarchists to do it.

Correct - but we do not need to fight them - we need to ship them out to their homelands. This is an ideological "war", a cultural "war" - not a "war" against "terrorism".

"Terrorism" is simply a calculated act. It does not actually exist - except in the mind - until the act is commited, and therefore it is impossible to "stop it" or prevent it. Such acts occur in prisons daily in this country, and will go on occurring infinitum.

What we can do is deal with political ideologies which are hostile to ours, and foster and maintain a stable culture and language. These things define a nation. Chasing one or another group of a dozen, hundreds or thousands here or outside our borders is not going to do anything except drain us as a nation.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[CAnnoneer]

In wars, the "unsqeamish and tough" people who violate their own natural law and conscience this way usually - not always, but usually - become the first and worst psychological casualties.

Occasional collateral damage. The host society generally does not know and moves on.

The parallel here is rather too close. Germany and it's people were as civilized, sophisticated and educated as any of their other european brothers.

Then you need a crash course in British colonial methods.

The way by which they were led down the path to their ultimate end as a nation was not some fluke or stroke of magic.

Many tens of thousands of T-34s, Shermans, B-17s, B-29s, Il-2s, etc. seem to me to have played a far more influential role in Third Reich's demise than any degradation in culture.

we need to ship them out to their homelands.

And how do you propose to do that without resorting to the methods you abhor?

Chasing one or another group of a dozen, hundreds or thousands here or outside our borders is not going to do anything except drain us as a nation.

Unfortunately, they proved multiple times in the 1990s and in 2001 that they would not "live and let live".

[LAK]

CAnnoneer

Occasional collateral damage. The host society generally does not know and moves on.

The term collateral damage may be rightly applied to material and property damage etc associated with war - it is a tad sterile a term when referring to human beings, the civil population at large as mere collateral assets. Men, women and children alike.

Then you need a crash course in British colonial methods.

British colonial methods? What has the conquest and preservation of the british empire have to do with our values and culture, political ideology, defending our borders and independence as a nation? 

Many tens of thousands of T-34s, Shermans, B-17s, B-29s, Il-2s, etc. seem to me to have played a far more influential role in Third Reich's demise than any degradation in culture.

The defeat of germany at war at a later time has nothing to do with the engineered slide I referred to, which started early in the 1930s and is all too well recorded. No fluke, no magic. Just basic political psychological manipulation. Old hat political science in action.

And how do you propose to do that without resorting to the methods you abhor?

Now you misunderstand. Or at least I will give you the benefit of the doubt. It is not necessary to murder people to deport them. Nor to torture people in order to inform them that the appointed officials operating under the erroneous authority of nameable elected officials - in deliberate contempt of our Constitution, law and ideology - that granted them a visa, even citizenship, did so wittingly or unwittingly in error.

Nor to impeach, indict and prosecute those elected and appointed officials still living who have steered our nation down this subverted path since the end of WW2. In all three branches.

Nor to put our military on our northern and southern borders, put a near absolute stop to the uncontrolled border traffic of various kinds, and deport every single illegal immigrant to their homelands as they are identified.

Unfortunately, they proved multiple times in the 1990s and in 2001 that they would not "live and let live".

Who? Al Kidya? Who let them in? Who stonewalled the investigations into their activities and arrests? Who were these people, whom the FBI are try so hard not to name, flown out right after 9/11 while all of us were grounded?

Who are these nameless and faceless individual officials and others, protected by the Bush administration, and Clinton's before him - before, during and after the fact? Who were the "lucky" guys who dumped all that American and United Airlines stock in the days prior to 9/11? Who kept them out of the "Independent 9/11 Commission Report"? Who saw to it that the financing of the 9/11 attack was significantly absent from the publicized proceedings of the "Commission", and took up a whole half page or so of a report as thick as a phone book?

Who are these people protecting the Sandy Bergers and Douglas Feiths who seem to be cropping up with regularity every now and then - the ones that actually have been caught and made public - from thorough investigation and strongest criminal indictments?

Get them out - deport them. Impeach and indict as applicable. No murder or torture needed. No "collateral damage" necessary. No multi-trillion dollar perpetual war for perpetual peace all over central asia, south america and indonesia.

It is these people that are the enemies of the United States. It is these people that have engineered out current state and vulnerability. It is these people that need dealing with. No sacrifice of american blood and resources for a corporate government geo-political agenda. Let these people sacrifice their blood and resources in the mid east and asia.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[CAnnoneer]

it is a tad sterile a term when referring to human beings

Sterile or not, it is perfectly valid. Personnel is another form of resource.

British colonial methods? What has the conquest and preservation of the british empire have to do with our values and culture, political ideology, defending our borders and independence as a nation? 

I think one of your points is that a society would be culturally doomed by its adopted "questionable" methodology. I brought up the Brits because their colonial history is brimful of violence by a few tough unsqueamish men upon whose efforts the empire was built and maintained, yet the culture of the Metropoly flourished for centuries instead of waning "within 10 years". That's a direct historical counterexample of your original assertions.

The defeat of germany at war at a later time has nothing to do with the engineered slide I referred to, which started early in the 1930s and is all too well recorded.

So, what is your argument then? We will not be defeated but will turn into a fascist state if we allow ourselves to slap terrorists around etc?

Now you misunderstand.

Please explain how you will get rid of liberals, fascists, and terrorists by means you do not abhor. Your response covered illegal aliens, which is a trivial issue in comparison.

Unfortunately, they proved multiple times in the 1990s and in 2001 that they would not "live and let live".

Your response to my question above is still non-responsive. No matter what internal problems we have, the fact remains a bunch of crazyass zealots hijacked several planes and drove them into buildings, causing billions in damage and killing over 3,000 Americans in one day. Nothing in your response gives any defense against the same thing happening again.

You have to understand that no matter how much you despise/hate our gov, globalists, the Iraq invasion, etc., the reality is that there are people out there that want to kill us because of who we are and what we cause by our mere existence. Therefore they will not be satisfied until we either drastically change our way of life to make it more palatable to THEIR medieval retarded views, or we cease to exist altogether. On 9/11 they proved they can get to us, and so we cannot ignore them as before.

[LAK]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt again. Personnel resources, as in military personnel, are fair game in any war. The civil population at large are not the same thing.

Even the colonial brits were very careful in these regards. The recorded attrocities and abuses commited by a few rogues and mavericks are to be expected in the course of the long haul of averages - no government has ever been free of such things. But the colonial brits were generally very strict in the morality of their administration and conduct of war.

"Slapping terrorists around"? Slapping is one thing, murder something else completely. And what for? To what tangible end? Even if we could morally justify torture, torture is historically proven to be counterproductive in every way. It yields bad or unreliable information, and it enrages what might be otherwise neutral or restrained populations of the country concerned. You reap what you sow; if we can not live by the natural law, our moral code, we will with certainly self destruct. Call it a fascist state, or any other name you wish to apply.

I stated quite clearly how to deal with the enemies of the United States - the liberals etc who have systematically engineered out current state. You apparently did not read my post or understand it. Illegals are not trivial when the financial burden on the public purse - national and local - are considered. They are also not a trivial issue when it is considered that what any mexican can do, any "terrorist" can do also. Learning spanish is not that difficult, and anyone from one of a number of "rogue" states dressed in a straw hat, plaid shirt, ropers, and jeans with a Corona beer belt buckle could pass as "mexican".

It is not a matter of "hating" or "despising our government" (that one is always a silly injection), globalists or the invasion of iraq. The people that want to kill us have been deliberately facilitated and protected by people who have held or hold elected public office or appointment within our government and institutions. These same people continue to to do so. If we do not deal with these, wild goose chases all over the globe are not going to yield any measureable level of security. We are not going to "win" in a fragmented series of engagements against the militant faction of well over a billion muslims overseas. That is a simple fact, and it is insanity to consider the idea as even remotely possible. It is as absurd as someone stomping on ant hills claiming that they are going to keep them out of their yard.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[CAnnoneer]

LAK,

You continue being non-responsive on several key questions. Also, if you seriously believe that the British hardknuckled colonial policies were a few mavericks going crazy, then you really must reread the history books.

[LAK]

I clearly and explicitly stated what I would do about certain groups of people and stated specifically what the real threats are to this country, it's security and why. I also explained exactly why the "war" as presented is a futile venture. You are either not reading my posts or you do not understand english. One or the other.

My knowledge and comphrehension of british colonial history is just fine thank you.

Cheerio.

[CAnnoneer]

I clearly and explicitly stated what I would do about certain groups of people and stated specifically what the real threats are to this country, it's security and why.

Offer a workable solution. Turning this country into a police-state fortress after dealing with alleged traitors is not one. Individual terrorists will always be able to sneak in, especially considering the resources at their disposal. The portability of explosives (not even WMDs) makes a "security" solution a fantasy. If you do not believe so, please explain how you are going to prevent half a dozen trained terrorists from blowing up a chemical plant with C4 or some other conventional explosive, even home-made. We are SITTING on WMDs...

I also explained exactly why the "war" as presented is a futile venture. You are either not reading my posts or you do not understand english. One or the other.

9/11 changed the world. Without "draining the swamp", we would turn into another Israel whether we like it or not. That is unless you do not mind home-made Claymores exploding at your local Starbucks. Up to 9/11, we could simply ignore a lot, because it was too far away. Now these guys have realized they can hit us at home, while their financiers can make millions playing the stock market before every attack. Homeland defense alone will not be enough, no matter how much freedom security-moms are willing to sacrifice.

My knowledge and comphrehension of british colonial history is just fine thank you.

You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with a long line of political and military leaders, including such figures as Kitchener and Churchill.

[De Selby]

CAnnoneer:

I think you need to record yourself chanting "They Hate Our Freedom! They hate our Freedom!" over and over.  Do a 20 minute voice track, and then just post that every time someone disputes your fanatical views on Arabs, Muslims, and terrorism.

The idea that this conflict is about some Arabs being angry over dancing girls on Television is beyond absurd.  It requires believing that if the USA suddenly became a fascist state and outlawed all porno and dating, Bin Laden would drop his arms and praise it. 

 

[CAnnoneer]

I think you need to record yourself chanting "They Hate Our Freedom! They hate our Freedom!" over and over.  Do a 20 minute voice track, and then just post that every time someone disputes your fanatical views on Arabs, Muslims, and terrorism.

If you do not see that this is a cultural conflict as much as it is a political one, you must not have been paying attention. No matter what you believe, the American-Arabs that you rub shoulders with at your school's Starbucks are not representative of their cultures any more than Mel Gibson is Australian.

[De Selby]

CAnnoneer,

You can repeat "they hate our freedom!" all you want, but that won't make it true either.

Most people who claim to be "just paying attention to what they say" are either taking "jihadwatch" as the sole representative of Arab public opinion, or they are not actually reading what "they" are saying.  Terrorists give their gripes and "justifications" for their murders in almost every speech...and they are not saying "kill them because they have magazines with swmsuits." 

This is a pretty standard international conflict:  There are groups that want control over pieces of land and resources, and we're allied with the people they would have to fight to get it.  That's why they aren't hitting Mexico or Singapore, and are hitting states that have ties to the various middle east dictatorships, to the various middle east wars, and to the Israeli government.

They do not care, even a little bit, how we are living in America.  If we passed a law requiring all women to wear burqas and still supported the House of Saud and Israel, they'd still attack us.

[CAnnoneer]

This is a pretty standard international conflict:  There are groups that want control over pieces of land and resources, and we're allied with the people they would have to fight to get it. 

That pretty much sums up your naivety on the subject. You seriously believe that if we stop supporting Israel, it will all magically just go away. Here is a hint - OBL does not give a crap about Israel and neither do those who finance him.

[De Selby]

CAnnoneer,

Well, if you think OBL doesn't care about support for Israel or Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Jordan....you must be a mind reader, because you can't get that he doesn't care from his words.

Maybe you're a psychic and OBL has never said anything that actually belies his true intentions; that's the only possible way you could be right about this.

[CAnnoneer]

Well, if you think OBL doesn't care about support for Israel or Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Jordan....you must be a mind reader, because you can't get that he doesn't care from his words.Maybe you're a psychic and OBL has never said anything that actually belies his true intentions; that's the only possible way you could be right about this.

Fine, you want a walkthrough. Lazy bum.

Is OBL an idiot or not? I think not. For many many years he has been taking astute political decisions and investing a ton of money relentlessly trying to make himself more famous and influential in the arab and islamic worlds. So, if he is not an idiot, why is he doing what he is doing?

Does OBL seriously believe that even a 9/11 would make US policy less pro-Israel? If anything, it would make it MORE pro-Israel. So is it to his advantage to attack the US if he wants to hurt Israel? Of course not! So why did he attack then? Well, he wants fame and influence, but that is not all of it. He could have had that remaining the rich scion in Saudi Arabia and have quite a bit of both. What he wants is political changes in the region. If the region were of western model, he could run for president, but it is not, so he cannot. His real hatred is for the royals that prevent people like him from making any political progress for themselves. He probably fancies himself a Lawrence of Arabia, stirring the tribes to greatness by offering them a big juicy target to concentrate their anger and hatred on - the big white shaytan. That's why he attacked the US - to provoke us in entering the region and making the political changes for him by ourselves at our own expense. It has worked masterfully.

In terms of financing, he and others get funded by islamic charities and imams that think they promote islam that way; by people that (wrongly) believe he is a fundamentalist and thus a stabilizing factor for their political power; and by people who need the generated political instabilities to make tons of money through oil price and stock market fluctuations. For all of these, but especially for the last group, terrorism is a huge business, and that is why they will be certain to perpetuate it no matter what happens to Israel.

In terms of rhetoric, he is just another politician, which means he lies a lot. Where's the surprise? He riles up the rabble by pressing their hot buttons (Israel, islam), he maintains excitement (tapes), he deceives (give us Israel and we'll be good). He says what he needs to say to keep his followers and keep prodding the US to do his dirty work for him. And he knows that we will, because he knows us quite well.

[De Selby]

CAnnoneer,

Wait a second....you start alleging that this is an ideological "clash of civilizations."

Then you go and outline an entirely worldly strategic interest of bin laden's, namely, to take down governments in the middle east.  The piece of your analysis here:

That's why he attacked the US - to provoke us in entering the region and making the political changes for him by ourselves at our own expense. It has worked masterfully

Is along the same lines as mine, except that it's factually incorrect.  We were already in the region before 9/11, and the dictatorships bin laden has a beef with exist solely by virtue of their alliance with America.  Without American support and funding, there's no imaginable way that Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Bahrain could have the governments they do. 

Any Bin Ladenite regime that replaces those governments will immediately be subject to attack by Israel, so yes...Israel fits into his designs for violent overthrow of the governments in the middle east.

I have to say though, major points for totally abandoning your original claim without batting an eyelid.  If you want to discuss strategic and political concerns, I'd say you're talking sense about what the terrorists are doing...if you want to talk about sports illustrated swimsuit editions as the cause of 9/11, well, I think your obvious reversal shows that even you agree that it makes no sense.

[CAnnoneer]

SS,

You really need to try to think before hitting the keyboard; otherwise you leave a decidedly infantile impression. Instead of gushing silly accusations at me, take the time and see the complex situation for what it is. Then you will see that there are no contradictions in my position.

What the peons think at the bottom and what the generals think at the top are two very different things. OBL is a strategist and plays his game well. That in no way changes the fact that the ignorant idiots at the bottom get riled up on cultural differences and religious fervor. There is also no reason why the OBL's of the world as well as their financial backers cannot exploit the very real clash of civilizations that we observe. In fact they are certain to, as it has been done numerous times in history.

If you do not see this, ask yourself if OBL & co. would have any wind in their sails at all if there wasn't a clash of civilizations and the prols were not willing to listen to the message and perceive the world in the pre-packaged fundamentalist perspective.

All the countries that you listed at best might need us to keep them from attacking one another or perhaps saving them from bullies like Iran and Iraq-of-the-past. Their govs certainly do not need us to crush internal opposition. They are pretty good at it, and that's why OBL is not leading a fundamentalist revolution in SA, but instead is hiding somewhere while we "drain the swamp" for him. To assert that SA or Kuweit need our financial support is just silly. What is next, food stamps for Bill Gates?

Now before I offer any further instruction, be a good boy and take back all the trash. Otherwise, good luck to you.

[De Selby]

You really need to try to think before hitting the keyboard; otherwise you leave a decidedly infantile impression. Instead of gushing silly accusations at me, take the time and see the complex situation for what it is. Then you will see that there are no contradictions in my position.

Which position are you referring to? Your position that this is a "cultural conflict" that came about because Bin Laden can't stand American TV?   Or your second position, that Bin Laden has political and strategic goals that drive his criminal activities?

You haven't really offered anything to support the first.  When I challenged it, you went straight to position two...which is basically what I was saying in the first place.

OBL is a strategist and plays his game well. That in no way changes the fact that the ignorant idiots at the bottom get riled up on cultural differences and religious fervor.

Sure, but so do we.  Does that mean that it would be accurate to say that the US fights terrorism because "we hate Arabs" in the same way that "they hate our freedom"?

Judging an organized campaign of violence based on what the dumbest possible actor in the organization might possibly think is ridiculous, if you ask me.

There is also no reason why the OBL's of the world as well as their financial backers cannot exploit the very real clash of civilizations that we observe. In fact they are certain to, as it has been done numerous times in history.

The cause of the "exploitation" here is the conflict in the first place.  I'm not sure I see your point...yes, when two agents engage in warfare, they will try to manufacture consensus by propaganda that includes highlighting the bad points of the enemy.  That is tangent to the actual conflict, which would already have to be a problem in order for the propaganda machine to have a reason to get rolling.

If you do not see this, ask yourself if OBL & co. would have any wind in their sails at all if there wasn't a clash of civilizations and the prols were not willing to listen to the message and perceive the world in the pre-packaged fundamentalist perspective.

This is an easy one:  yes, yes, yes they would have wind in their sails.  They get plenty of justification to carry out attacks on people who don't live like us at all, as evidenced by their repeated attempts to topple the House of Saud.

The "prols" are not so stupid that they don't realize that the governments they suffer under in those countries exist primarily because of US support.  Your claim here is facially absurd; people live under brutal, criminal, and completely disorganized dictatorships that everyone knows are propped up by US backing....but the real reason they're mad is that they think we let women walk around naked.

Yeah right.

Edit to address the edit:

They are pretty good at it, and that's why OBL is not leading a fundamentalist revolution in SA, but instead is hiding somewhere while we "drain the swamp" for him.

He is leading a fundamentalist revolution in Saudi Arabia.  They have an extensive network of torturers and secret police to fight it, and only barely are they able to protect key facilities.

To assert that SA or Kuweit need our financial support is just silly. What is next, food stamps for Bill Gates?

They don't make anything, so yes, their money has to come from somewhere.  And militarily, there's no question that they need our support...both their "intelligence" services are almost entirely American created (like Jordan's), and you need only think back to 1991 to imagine what it would be like for these incompetent regimes without unwaivering US military commitment.

Governments that are isolated from foreign aid have a lot harder time maintaining control through brute force.  Iran is a good example of that...no, it's not great, but compared to the US backed states, it's a liberal democracy.

[CAnnoneer]

You haven't really offered anything to support the first. 

Bah, who are you kidding? What do all the imams say all the time? That we are nice people that they like but for us supporting Israel? I seem to remember us being the Big Devil. Imams say that and people believe it. I also seem to remember televized celebrations of 9/11 by women and children on the streets. I need to offer this as evidence to you??

Judging an organized campaign of violence based on what the dumbest possible actor in the organization might possibly think is ridiculous, if you ask me.

You might want to care about what they think, taking into account they will be the ones to kill you, not OBL hooked to his dialysis machine in some private sanatorium. If they did not want to kill you, OBL would be a nobody.

The cause of the "exploitation" here is the conflict in the first place. 

The cause of exploitation is sheikhs and imams wanting to keep their power, NO MATTER WHAT.

They get plenty of justification to carry out attacks on people who don't live like us at all, as evidenced by their repeated attempts to topple the House of Saud.

One is not exclusive of the other. They are part of the same problem. We are the external agent that is being manipulated by both sides.

The "prols" are not so stupid that they don't realize that the governments they suffer under in those countries exist primarily because of US support.  Your claim here is facially absurd; people live under brutal, criminal, and completely disorganized dictatorships that everyone knows are propped up by US backing....but the real reason they're mad is that they think we let women walk around naked.

Please provide evidence as to how we are the ones that keep those govs in power. Are we providing them with Gestapo services? Do we hunt, torture, or dismember dissidents for them? How is it we keep them there?

What keeps them in power is their own money, their imams, and their brutal internal security. And that is why most of this is their own internal problems, which find a programmed vent in hatred against us. The royalists need us as an attention shift, the OBLs need us to do the job for them so they rile the rabble against us, the imams find us a fertile ground for moral condemnation, and the rabble listen and hate us because of what they are being told and because they envy what we have. They are like a bunch of crabs in a barrel, and they have managed to pull us in as well.

[De Selby]

Bah, who are you kidding? What do all the imams say all the time?

Okay, here's what you using the term "all the Imams" is like:

If someone commenting on American politics said "Just look at what all the Constables are saying!", you'd wonder if he were really talking about American politicians (governors, mayors, congressmen, etc etc)...or if he didn't really have any clue, as betrayed by his use of terms that don't really fit.

Imams say that and people believe it. I also seem to remember televized celebrations of 9/11 by women and children on the streets. I need to offer this as evidence to you??

"I seem to remember."  Whenever I read that, I know I'm going to see a really solid argument

The cause of exploitation is sheikhs and imams wanting to keep their power, NO MATTER WHAT.

Except that the Sheikhs and Imams who are in power cooperate with the United States.  That's the problem with your theory--the ruling classes in all of those countries are US backed.  There is no way around that.

One is not exclusive of the other. They are part of the same problem. We are the external agent that is being manipulated by both sides.

Yeah, the US diplomatic, military, and intelligence services are just a bunch of unsophisticates..they've got nothing on a bunch of playboy Saudi royals when it comes to maneuvering. 

Or is it maybe more plausible to think that the US has a significant role in government there? Hmm....

Please provide evidence as to how we are the ones that keep those govs in power.

Sure

Are we providing them with Gestapo services? Do we hunt, torture, or dismember dissidents for them? How is it we keep them there?

Yes.  We do train their intelligence services, and we regularly hand over enemies of their regimes to be tortured and/or killed.  We also station troops nearby, and whenever their completely disorganized and demoralized armies face a military challenge (like from Saddam, for example, or Iran), we defend them. 

The model for the Shah was exactly the same.  The difference is that Iranian resistance to the Shah organized much more efficiently than the groups that oppose the Arab client states.

What keeps them in power is their own money, their imams, and their brutal internal security

Again, noting the curious use of the word "imams", I question your familiarity with the place.  Their money and brutal internal security is guarded by US military equipment, US intelligence, and US training.    Without US backing, they would not stand a year against their own people, and they would not stand five minutes against even a third rate army like Syria's, Iran's, or the former Saddam's. 

The royalists need us as an attention shift

This could not be further from the truth.  US activity in the gulf is generally silenced or downplayed in Arab states; where we are criticized, it is part of the thin veil of independence that client states try to maintain.

They are like a bunch of crabs in a barrel, and they have managed to pull us in as well.

Right, because they're so sophistocated that they just play generations of American presidents like a harmonica.  America, a little boy wandering the world and taking candy from strangers.

Like I said...yeah right.

[CAnnoneer]

SS,

Cut down on the emotional carping and offer logic and data instead. You keep forgetting this forum is not a highschool debating team and you only score negative points by silly demagogy. Behave yourself or you will be ignored until you grow up.

You can repeat that we prop their governments all you like. If buying their oil, selling them weapons, and training their personnel is "propping", then most of the industrial world is equally responsible. Notice they do not refer to Europe or China as the big devil.

The imams have the greatest responsibility of all, because they are the ones that teach the madrasas and a very fundamentalist outlook on life. They are the breeding grounds for precisely the type of brainwashed youth that is the recruiting pool for the terrorist handlers like OBL and his lieutenants. Further, it is the imams that organize islamic charities that are one of the major funding sources for terrorism. Finally, it is imams that support the royal family politically and also use religion to interfere in politics, Sadr being the perfect example for the latter. All of this should be obvious to you if indeed you know as much as you claim you do.

Again, we are not the ones doing internal security for the govs, and that is what keeps them in power. Instead of becoming terrorists to kill Israeli and Americans, why not organize their own revolutions and depose the govs? Because hijacking planes and decapitating reporters is far easier - they don't fight back. And because to attack the royals is also to attack the imams that support them and ultimately attack islam. And that is the trick. They cannot get rid of the royals until they get rid of islam and vice versa. Iran only happened because the royals there became too secular and too westernized, something the saudis are smart not to do.

Finally, please explain a bit more about why it is such a horrible thing that we protect countries from external aggression. Do your sympathies lie with the fundamentalist bullies that want a caliphate from India to Italy? In your book, is it preferable to have Iran overrun the region and govern the Middle and Near East by an ayatolah in Tehran? Where do your loyalties lie?

[De Selby]

You can repeat that we prop their governments all you like. If buying their oil, selling them weapons, and training their personnel is "propping", then most of the industrial world is equally responsible. Notice they do not refer to Europe or China as the big devil.

Okay, how many Swedish troops are stationed on the Arabian peninsula?

How many Arab intelligence services have been trained by Germany?

And that's on top of the dollar value disparity in aid...I think your problem is that you're totally unaware of the numbers, and are relying on vague assumptions instead of actual knowledge. 

Here's an article about Egypt with some numbers you might want to see:http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0412/p07s01-wome.html

The imams have the greatest responsibility of all, because they are the ones that teach the madrasas and a very fundamentalist outlook on life.

Apparently you did not look up the word "Imam" after it was pointed out to you that you were using it incorrectly.  The problem with your claims here is twofold:

1. Imams do not teach anything. 

2. The Madrassas are generally places for rote memorization of text, not places where sermons are given.

So your treatment of both as the source of the problem says to me that you haven't bothered to learn what is going on, but instead are relying on maybe things you heard at the water cooler for your understanding. 

Finally, it is imams that support the royal family politically and also use religion to interfere in politics, Sadr being the perfect example for the latter. All of this should be obvious to you if indeed you know as much as you claim you do.

Sadr is not an Imam.  Now seriously...if someone comes to you claiming things about the United States, and then goes on to demonstrat that he doesn't understand the difference between a Governor, a Senator, or the President...would you take that person seriously?

Again, we are not the ones doing internal security for the govs, and that is what keeps them in power.

Well, you might be surprised to see this then:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/030602/2terror.b.htm

Jordan's role won't be a surprise to U.S. intelligence veterans. The CIA helped set up the Mukhabarat, and the elder King Hussein was on the agency's payroll. For at least 20 years, the late king received as much as $1 million a year--money he said was funneled to his security and intelligence agencies.

Instead of becoming terrorists to kill Israeli and Americans, why not organize their own revolutions and depose the govs? Because hijacking planes and decapitating reporters is far easier - they don't fight back. And because to attack the royals is also to attack the imams that support them and ultimately attack islam. And that is the trick. T

They do organize revolutions.  That's why the ME states have to have such extensive secret police networks-to torture and kill all the people who are trying to topple their governments.  And where do the money and expertise and the combat troops to fall back on come from?

Our side of the world.

Finally, please explain a bit more about why it is such a horrible thing that we protect countries from external aggression. Do your sympathies lie with the fundamentalist bullies that want a caliphate from India to Italy? In your book, is it preferable to have Iran overrun the region and govern the Middle and Near East by an ayatolah in Tehran? Where do your loyalties lie?

Who said anything about wrong?  The point was that those countries exist because of US protection, and the people who live there know it.  So when they get tortured, beaten, arrested, robbed, etc by their governments...they also know that if the US money and arms pipeline dries up, they'll have a lot easier time getting rid of the crooks.

My sympathies lie with people who want peace.  I'm not aware of any group, violent or peaceful, that wants a "caliphate from India to Italy" (not even Al Qaeda), and I definitely wouldn't like to see Iran overrun the region.  But I don't think we'd be in this position if, like Iran, the Arab states had not been governed by US-backed, incompetent dictators.  If the Arabs were able to develop democratic systems even as much as Iran, they'd be a lot stronger...but then they wouldn't be subordinate to US strategic interests.

[CAnnoneer]

Here's an article about Egypt with some numbers you might want to see

We do not use the troops in the region to kill people that are not our enemies. OBL & co could go by their revolution without attacking us, albeit by a more difficult route. So long as they do not close the spiggot on us or attack us, I seriously doubt the West cares too much what they do with themselves.

The numbers you linked are interesting but unconvincing. So, this or that country gets a $1b tip per year to like us (or at least not hate us too much). How does the aid compare to their GNP?

Apparently you did not look up the word "Imam" after it was pointed out to you that you were using it incorrectly. 

I am not going to play a semantics game. Imam, dervish, preacher, cleric, holy man, whatever. They all amount to the same functionality - a religious zealot who could keep his faith to himself, but instead uses it to influence people politically and rile up the ignorant rabble. I got no problem with the village priest who tends his parish and stays out of politics, but I got a big problem with the likes of Sadr, no matter what he chooses to call himself today. Strictly speaking, OBL has no official right to declare jihad either, but has that stopped him?? Do not obscure the functionalities by semantics details.

Jordan's role won't be a surprise to U.S. intelligence veterans. The CIA helped set up the Mukhabarat, and the elder King Hussein was on the agency's payroll. For at least 20 years, the late king received as much as $1 million a year--money he said was funneled to his security and intelligence agencies.

So, Jordan used a million bucks on their internal security. Wow, I know people whose houses are worth triple that. How does this compare to their own security budget?

They do organize revolutions.  That's why the ME states have to have such extensive secret police networks-to torture and kill all the people who are trying to topple their governments.  And where do the money and expertise and the combat troops to fall back on come from?

Frankly, after 9/11 and the WMD affair, and with OBL still on the loose, I have little respect for the abilities of CIA. Please provide a link or at least something circumstantial to show that without CIA, the local security agencies would be overwhelmed. Even if CIA were more than marginally useful, these revolutions still remain the internal affairs of these countries and should be handled as such by the revolutionaries. Attacking America directly buys them nothing but more support for their "oppressors". It is a stupid strategy, unless the real desire is more involvement of America in "draining the swamp" for them.

Our side of the world.

...they also know that if the US money and arms pipeline dries up, they'll have a lot easier time getting rid of the crooks.

Then they are just stupid. If it is not US arms, it will be German, French, Russian, or Chinese ones. What difference will it make??

My sympathies lie with people who want peace. 

That contradicts your negative attitude towards US keeping the peace there. You cannot have it both ways. Decide what you want - peace or a complete redrawing of the map by Iran and other local bullies.

But I don't think we'd be in this position if, like Iran, the Arab states had not been governed by US-backed, incompetent dictators.  If the Arabs were able to develop democratic systems even as much as Iran, they'd be a lot stronger...but then they wouldn't be subordinate to US strategic interests.

Does the above mean you do not believe Iran is governed by incompetent dictators? What difference does it make if they are US-backed or not? Iran is in an even worse economic crisis than Egypt, while sitting on significantly more oil. Instead of improving the conditions inside their country, they spend money on rearmament and nuclear weapons, to thumb their noses at us and satisfy a huge inferiority complex. That's very enlightened.

If anything, Iran proves that even if left to their own devices, these countries do not get their act together. On the contrary, a fundamentalist revolution ultimately produces a dictatorship. The major difference is it is a theocratic one instead of a secular one. Should we see that as an improvement?

[De Selby]

We do not use the troops in the region to kill people that are not our enemies. OBL & co could go by their revolution without attacking us, albeit by a more difficult route. So long as they do not close the spiggot on us or attack us, I seriously doubt the West cares too much what they do with themselves.

You already cited the main reason (the spigot) why reliable, incompetent, dependent dictators are in charge of those countries.  Now, as long as they guarantee an open spigot and a minimum of demands, do you think the US is ever going to let a revolution topple them?

Right....now you see why they are focusing on us.  Because as long as their backwards leaders have our support, they won't be easily removed.

The numbers you linked are interesting but unconvincing. So, this or that country gets a $1b tip per year to like us (or at least not hate us too much). How does the aid compare to their GNP?

If it weren't significant, they'd save themselves the disgrace at home and not take it.

am not going to play a semantics game. Imam, dervish, preacher, cleric, holy man, whatever.

Pointing out that you are fundamentally unfamiliar with the titles of people involved is not semantics.  Imagine if someone bashing the US said "Eh, president, mayor, sheriff, bailiff, whatever....they're all the same." 

The point with this is that you obviously do not know what you're talking about with respect to the religious authorities in the middle east.  If you have so little exposure that you don't even understand the titles of the people you claim to have watched and understood, how can you stand there and expect people to believe that you know anything at all about the level of authority they command from their people?

So, Jordan used a million bucks on their internal security. Wow, I know people whose houses are worth triple that. How does this compare to their own security budget?

The dollar amount isn't all; we also trained the spies.

Attacking America directly buys them nothing but more support for their "oppressors". It is a stupid strategy, unless the real desire is more involvement of America in "draining the swamp" for them.

Maybe it is, but that doesn't mean it's motivated by the fact that people watch naked women in movies in America.

Then they are just stupid. If it is not US arms, it will be German, French, Russian, or Chinese ones. What difference will it make??

Well, there are obvious examples of the difference it makes.  Take a look at Syria and Iran...both are forced to tolerate much, much more dissent than the Saudis would ever tolerate, and are forced to have more inclusive political systems because of it.  Superpower backing gives lots and lots of discretion to dictators.

That contradicts your negative attitude towards US keeping the peace there. You cannot have it both ways. Decide what you want - peace or a complete redrawing of the map by Iran and other local bullies.

Haha, as opposed to a complete redrawing of the map by the US or the Saudis? Oh yes...Saudi Arabia and Egypt will "keep the peace." 

Does the above mean you do not believe Iran is governed by incompetent dictators? What difference does it make if they are US-backed or not? Iran is in an even worse economic crisis than Egypt, while sitting on significantly more oil. Instead of improving the conditions inside their country, they spend money on rearmament and nuclear weapons, to thumb their noses at us and satisfy a huge inferiority complex. That's very enlightened.

Iran's government is so far more advanced and competent than Mubarak's that it might as well be the difference between an African bush-tribe's council and the Board of Microsoft.  Iran is certainly a backwards and undemocratic place compared to America...but it's much better off, politically, than Egypt or Saudi Arabia.  They actually vote for candidates and have something resembling local, regional, and national government beyond "Whoever is friends with the Dictator gets a post."

If anything, Iran proves that even if left to their own devices, these countries do not get their act together. On the contrary, a fundamentalist revolution ultimately produces a dictatorship. The major difference is it is a theocratic one instead of a secular one. Should we see that as an improvement?

Iran is not a dictatorship. 

And yes, it is a big improvement on Saudi Arabia.  You get to vote, and you get a degree of religious freedom there...you can have a Church and a Synagogue in Iran.  Try that in Saudi Arabia.

[LAK]

CAnnoneer

Offer a workable solution.

This is an amusing response to some observations concerning how blatantly foolish, futile, bloody (etc) a campaign this is. G W Bush has been dumb enough - or rather figures enough of his listeners are dumb enough - to use it as some kind of big stick in at least one of his more recent speeches.

When making observations concerning an exposed fraud and folly one is not required to "offer a workable solution". However, firstly, there is no "solution" - only a process of minimization and consolidation. I have mentioned some key points that will steer us that way, and take care of other things as well. One can not objectively dissect this in isolation of other overlapping subjects, and they must all be attacked at the same time.

As far as conventional - what some perhaps would see as "workable solutions", there are the usual controlled "alternatives" presented. I see the same barely subsurface resistance to what needs to be done, as opposed to what is now a familiar pattern of what will be done in order to protect and maintain a certain status quo, a certain global geo-political agenda - steadfastly driven forward by both "parties" once again. Anything that endangers that path and moves us towards consolidated and actual independence and tangible self protection is not entertained in discussion.

Although shootingstudent and I often have opposing ideological views, we have collided favorably sometimes when it comes to other things. He notes the comparison of life in iran with egypt and saudi arabia, and it is interesting to note that there seems to be a very fierce propaganda campaign painting iran as something it is not.

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