Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MechAg94 on November 22, 2019, 11:26:41 PM
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https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/police-chief-says-cops-shouldn-t-draw-guns-on-suspects-with-knives-XroIwo2ar0m3tdCFmesIJA/
Burlington Police Chief Brandon del Pozo said that pointing guns at knife-wielding suspects is counterproductive.
“We tell officers that a knife or a shard of glass is always a lethal threat and that they should aggressively meet it with a lethal threat in return,” the police chief wrote. “But doing so forecloses all of the better ways to communicate with a person in crisis. There are alternatives.”
“Training officers to act as if their weapons are insurance policies, rather than persuasive devices, will transform the nation’s police work,” the chief declared. “Every American will be made safer by police officers whose first instinct is to communicate with the people they encounter and whose success lies in getting the psychology of persuasion right.”
Mike The Cop had a video on this and it seemed to be pretty foolish.
On the other hand, do you think it is a poorly stated way of saying command voice methods are not getting it done? I get the impression that more effective communication and deescalation is what he is after. I think the part about not treating a deadly weapon as deadly undermines his point.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/13/opinion/police-shootings-guns.html
This is the op ed piece written by the Police Chief.
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Was that a misprint: Pozo or Bozo?
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Certainly SOMETHING about modern policing in the US isn't resonating with much of anyone. This chief wants to try a different emphasis in his training, good on him.
I've opined before that I have a problem with the idea of "officer safety uber all", and telling officers that they should take some risks to deescalate a situation is not in and of itself something I have a problem with. As is often the case, the devil is in the details, and his actual training plan could be stupid, or great. Time will tell.
In general it's nice to see a Police Chief saying "Hey, maybe we shouldn't draw a gun if we don't want to shoot someone."
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I agree with the second quote in MechAg's post.
Cops should try to deescalate first, but be ready, willing, and able to use lethal force judiciously.
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De-escalation sounds great .... but let's not forget the Tueller drill. What was it ? ---- 21 feet? Inside that range, Mr. Knife guy can stick the officer before he can draw, aim, and fire his gun. Maybe Matt Dillon could get off a shot ... but only on TV.
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I live by a simple rule
If you don't want to be shot by a cop it's generally a good idea not to pull a gun/knife or otherwise threaten to kill one.
If everyone lived by this rule it would probably eliminate something like 99% of all police shootings
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I would happily take off a gun belt completely to talk to a knife weilding suspect provided I knew he was covered by 3 rifles, a shotgun, and a dog with issues. Otherwise, bonkers
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I live by a simple rule
If you don't want to be shot by a cop it's generally a good idea not to pull a gun/knife or otherwise threaten to kill one.
If everyone lived by this rule it would probably eliminate something like 99% of all police shootings
Or if you don't want to get shot by anyone, really.
What if we tried to keep everyone safe, both the police and the knife-wielding nutters, but we still understood that life is dangerous? The cops should do their best, but they carry guns for a reason. So do we.
We seem possessed of the idea that all harm and death can be avoided. If we look back a few decades, we were less concerned with every detail of safety, and we didn't think every casualty was a National Outrage. I remember shooting without safety glasses, at Fort Benning in the 90s. In less refined places like the Middle East, etc., they take a lot more chances, and suffer from the consequences. They're killing one another with celebratory gunfire at weddings, and riding atop train cars as a matter of course.
On the one hand, it's A Very Good Thing that we want everyone to be safe, and we know harm and death are wrong and unnatural things that should never happen. We want the perfect world we had before sin entered the world. That's what God wants for us. On the other hand, in the world we actually live in, we must accept that bad things happen.
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I live by a simple rule
If you don't want to be shot by a cop it's generally a good idea not to pull a gun/knife or otherwise threaten to kill one.
If everyone lived by this rule it would probably eliminate something like 99% of all police shootings
Don't forget about avoiding any hand movement toward your waist. =D
There does come a time when talk is over and cops have to do something. I agree that better training is probably also something that should be addressed.
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There does come a time when talk is over and cops have to do something. I agree that better training is probably also something that should be addressed.
I think all non crazy people understand that. My opinion is that some officers and some departments tend to do something before they get to that time. This is exacerbated by the perception that if an officer DOES err, and hurt or kill someone, they are unlikely to face real consequences unless the failure is particularly egregious.
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My off-the-cuff reaction is that "DROP THE KNIFE / GUN / 2X4 / BEISBOL BAT " is negotiation.
So is the movie line: "STOP OR I'LL SHOOT !"
See? Negotiation / de-escalation.
I'll always go along with more and better training, especially WRT any new types of incidents not previously encountered, but this Chief sounds like he's running for a political office... or ass-kissing the politico who appointed him.
Just off-the-cuff.
Terry
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My off-the-cuff reaction is that "DROP THE KNIFE / GUN / 2X4 / BEISBOL BAT " is negotiation.
So is the movie line: "STOP OR I'LL SHOOT !"
See? Negotiation / de-escalation.
I'll always go along with more and better training, especially WRT any new types of incidents not previously encountered, but this Chief sounds like he's running for a political office... or ass-kissing the politico who appointed him.
Just off-the-cuff.
Terry
I agree.
It should be a known given that if you pull a knife on a police officer you will be shot.
I'm just not seeing the problem.
If you want police to have the liberty to exercise some discretion I'm ok with that also.
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I don't disagree at all with the Chief's approach to talking down/de-escalating/training, especially when it comes to the mentally ill, who seem to make up an increasing number of police encounters. I have to deal with such people every work day, and all I have are my words and my ability to escape and evade, since I don't have a gun belt in the office. We have people who carry weapons into our clinics every day, and if one of them pulls a knife with serious intent while I am talking to them, I am dead. #RiskManagerSafety
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My opinion is that police chiefs aren't policemen, they're flunkies for the mayor.
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I don't disagree at all with the Chief's approach to talking down/de-escalating/training, especially when it comes to the mentally ill, who seem to make up an increasing number of police encounters. I have to deal with such people every work day, and all I have are my words and my ability to escape and evade, since I don't have a gun belt in the office. We have people who carry weapons into our clinics every day, and if one of them pulls a knife with serious intent while I am talking to them, I am dead. #RiskManagerSafety
Isn't de-escalation less of a possibility when mental illness is a factor?
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I don't disagree at all with the Chief's approach to talking down/de-escalating/training, especially when it comes to the mentally ill, who seem to make up an increasing number of police encounters.
Do you suppose that "mentally ill" is something that is an increasing category because the grounds for such a declaration get easier and easier?
Or is it because of the elimination of asylums and similar institutions 30-ish years ago?
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^^^Many people in the healthcare field, and I am one of them, believe that the closing of institutions and not replacing them with adequate outpatient care, is a major factor for more mentally-ill people on the streets.
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I don't disagree at all with the Chief's approach to talking down/de-escalating/training, especially when it comes to the mentally ill, who seem to make up an increasing number of police encounters. I have to deal with such people every work day, and all I have are my words and my ability to escape and evade, since I don't have a gun belt in the office. We have people who carry weapons into our clinics every day, and if one of them pulls a knife with serious intent while I am talking to them, I am dead. #RiskManagerSafety
A really hard-nosed "off the cuff" reaction to this might be if the miscreant cannot understand the instructions to drop the 2 X 4 then it's herd-culling time. (Apart from such side--tracking issues of the need for an official language and the suicide-by-cop situations.)
Well, to get back "on the cuff," there is a lot of improvised weaponry around the ordinary office --scissors, letter openers, any heavy object... you can also have another person standing by outside the (hopefully open) office door. The layout of the office might also help: have the desk on a side wall instead of the back wall so you have a direct escape route without having to go past the "interviewee." (Cookie-cutter modern cubicles may make this impossible.)
See? "Risk management." =D
So you might not necessarily be dead.
Terry
PS. I heartily agree about the closing of institutions allowing more crazies to run around loose. Worked in "Lodo" (lower downtown Denver) enough years to be able to confirm this.
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I agree.
It should be a known given that if you pull a knife on a police officer you will be shot.
I'm just not seeing the problem.
If you want police to have the liberty to exercise some discretion I'm ok with that also.
I have little or no argument with that when a weapon is visible. Where I get to not like that attitude is when it gets to: "Well, his hand moved toward his waste band while he was attempting to belly crawl toward me" (as ordered to by the officer). Or "they pointed a gun at me" ...from inside their own home outside which I was sneaking around in the dark without warrant or cause.
The circumstances mean a lot.
Maybe the training should also include how not to put yourself in avoidable situations where you have no choice but to shoot.
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My opinion is that police chiefs aren't policemen, they're flunkies for the mayor.
Yes. Locally, a previous Police Chief disbanded their Gang Task Force, the next Police chief implemented a 'no pursuit' policy, which has caused a cascade of mayhem. Gangs started 'rolling drug houses' (selling drugs and allowing patrons to use drungs in cars), police would try to pull them over and they would flee at high speed- knowing that if they just blow a red light, pursuit will be called off. They inevitably crash, or the car is parted out ,destroyed, or left abandoned, which creates a huge demand for replacement cars- all of which are stolen. 20 miles away from the core of the city, you can no longer leave a car unlocked in your driveway, let alone idling to warm it up. Carjackings became a thing. Dealerships were getting cars stolen right off their lots.
All of this because of a couple of smooth brained chiefs.
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Yes. Locally, a previous Police Chief disbanded their Gang Task Force, the next Police chief implemented a 'no pursuit' policy, which has caused a cascade of mayhem. Gangs started 'rolling drug houses' (selling drugs and allowing patrons to use drungs in cars), police would try to pull them over and they would flee at high speed- knowing that if they just blow a red light, pursuit will be called off. They inevitably crash, or the car is parted out ,destroyed, or left abandoned, which creates a huge demand for replacement cars- all of which are stolen. 20 miles away from the core of the city, you can no longer leave a car unlocked in your driveway, let alone idling to warm it up. Carjackings became a thing. Dealerships were getting cars stolen right off their lots.
All of this because of a couple of smooth brained chiefs.
They started the same crap here and crime is jumping through the roof. But it's not their fault, it's Trump's and his hatred
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They started the same crap here and crime is jumping through the roof. But it's not their fault, it's Trump's and his hatred
Imagine looking at disasterous policies elsewhere and thinking "I bet we'll get a better outcome if we do it here."
Its the same sort of cogdis that cause people to say things like "Real socialism hasn't been tried yet."
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Imagine looking at disasterous policies elsewhere and thinking "I bet we'll get a better outcome if we do it here."
Its the same sort of cogdis that cause people to say things like "Real socialism hasn't been tried yet."
The mayor actually stated that San Fran is the model we need to follow on the homeless. :facepalm:
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The mayor actually stated that San Fran is the model we need to follow on the homeless. :facepalm:
Oh.My.God.
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Just to be clear: When I say "the mayor" I meant the mayor of Louisville, Fischer
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De-escalation sounds great .... but let's not forget the Tueller drill. What was it ? ---- 21 feet? Inside that range, Mr. Knife guy can stick the officer before he can draw, aim, and fire his gun. Maybe Matt Dillon could get off a shot ... but only on TV.
Okay, I couldn't resist ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wzAGE4quWU
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Don't bring a gun to a knife fight?
Something's goofy there.
Can an Officer draw his own knife?
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The mayor actually stated that San Fran is the model we need to follow on the homeless. :facepalm:
So.... take guns from cops and give them pooper scoopers?
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Okay, I couldn't resist ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wzAGE4quWU
Was that a tiger trap? Or just a hole and he stabbed himself when he fell? :)
Anyway, what's wrong with drawing the gun and having it at low ready, with a "Please drop the <whatever> so neither of us gets hurt"? Rather than holding a gun on the suspect, finger on the trigger, and screaming obscenities and hoping he does something wrong or stupid? (and even if he doesn't, maybe firing the gun by accident because you had your stupid finger on the trigger)
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Was that a tiger trap? Or just a hole and he stabbed himself when he fell? :)
The latter, sort-of. He had dug a grave to bury his dog, then forgot where it was when he charged at Raylan.
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Not a knife, but related inasmuch as it was an attempted suicide by cop that didn't result in shots fired.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2jekvQ76mw&t=0s