Ken Hackathorn on Red Dot Sights

[Ben]

Ken Hackathorn on the pros and cons of red dots. I was particularly interested in his "old guy" segments, covering the difficulty of switching from irons to RDs if you've been shooting irons for many years. Same regarding an excuse I use myself of, "But my old eyes!". He's not anti-red dot (in fact even says people shouldn't knock RDs until they've tried one), but makes good points on why everyone should not just jump on the trend.

https://youtu.be/jjlL0hYgdag

[dogmush]

I stopped at 7:30 or so. 

I'll haver to respectfully disagree with the "10 yards and in Red Dots have no advantage" line.  I shoot regularly with a pretty diverse bunch of guys, on a timer, and on a timer scoring accuracy (hit a 3x5 card fastest, Dot Torture for time, FAST Drills for time, Hostage swinger hits for time, etc)  ALL of us are faster AND more accurate with a red dot.  This includes folks that started on Irons and transitioned, guys that have done it for real and guys that just gun game a lot.  It's possible Mr. Hackathorn is that .001% of people that isn't faster with a dot (for a set amount of training time), but everyone I meet in real life is faster and more accurate with a dot inside a couple hundred rounds of learning. Even Cowboy Action Shooters end up more accurate by far, and a little quicker with a dot.

It's also worth noting that folks that use a pistol on a two way range are pretty universally agreed that Red Dots are faster and better.

Ken's a better shooter than me, so if he says that's the case for him, I believe it, but I think he's steering his viewers wrong, because it's unlikely to be the case for them.


ETA:  I find these types of lines similar to the folks that want to talk about the "Pros and Cons" of NODS.  Yes, NODS have some things that aren't perfect, and they take training to use proficiently, but you're retarded if you want to fight in the dark without them if given a choice.

[MechAg94]

If you instinctively look for the iron sights first and have to "find" the red dot every time, it will be slower.  But I wouldn't recommend anyone switch to red dots without doing the practice (live fire and draw practice) to get accustomed to bringing the red dot right into your vision (just like you do with iron sights). 

I am keeping an eye out for the Holosun EPS carry sight as it is supposed to be able to co-witness with normal height irons.  I think that is where pistol red dots will eventually get.  Low mounted and very close to the iron sights. 

[Perd Hapley]

I've been skipping that video for days, and I think it's because of the title. Of course I don't need red dot sights. Wrong question; stupid title.

Personally, I'm not going in for red dots, because for me, it would be money better spent on training or ammo. For me, that is.

[MechAg94]

That is good point.  I might also add that high visibility night sights might be a better initial upgrade.  I know they help me a lot. 

[Lennyjoe]

My S&W MP 2.0 10MM came with iron sights tall enough to cowitness with my Holosun red dot.







I’m still getting used to red dots but they’re quickly taking over especially with my aging eyesight and glasses.

[dogmush]

I am keeping an eye out for the Holosun EPS carry sight as it is supposed to be able to co-witness with normal height irons.  I think that is where pistol red dots will eventually get.  Low mounted and very close to the iron sights.

I would not want my dot to co-witness with irons.  One of the benefits of the RDS is that you have less stuff in your way while viewing downrange.  Bringing the slide and my hands back "up" to cover the bottom half of the world is counterproductive.

If you mean the window is low enough you can use iron sights through the bottom of the window, that's a different thing.  Perhaps some might like that.  When I do my occasional "dead dot" drills, i find that I don't go back to my sights, I index on the target, put the window on the torso, and blaze away.

These conversations amuse me.  No one (anymore) seriously argues that you shouldn't put an optic on a fighting rifle for [reasons]. 

ETA because Lennyjoe and I crossposted.  I built a couple pistols with suppressor height sights and red dots so that I could use both.  I don't tend to run those guns much anymore, and I find I prefer not having the sights in the way.

[Lennyjoe]

I do notice that I pick up the red dot faster now that I’ve been using them more.  At first it was a little slow and distracting it as I get more experience it seems to be second nature.

[Lennyjoe]

I like the idea of sights high enough to clear the red dot housing.  At least if the dot fails I still have irons I can see and utilize

[dogmush]

I suspect you will see roughly the same progression as we saw with Red Dots on rifles.

As folks transitioned to red dots, they made sure they had a full set of BUIS that were as good as A2 sights, then they got more comfortable (and less happy about giving Troy $250 for sights they never use) and cheaper versions came out like MBUS, then slowly folks started taking those off to save rail space and weight.

It won't be exactly the same progression, as Pistol sights are cheaper and easier to include in the pistol on manufacture, but I bet you'll see more makes going with the Glock pattern of cheap, plastic sights as OEM, and over time there will be less of the "first thing put better sights on it" conventional wisdom.  Or you'll see vestigial sights molded into the back of the RDS (ala' Romeo Zero or RMS/RMSc)

[Perd Hapley]

dogmush, do you think there might be a point at which slides are made w/ no front end? It would save weight, and make porting easier.

[dogmush]

With a browning style tilting barrel action you need a lockup surface at the front of the barrel, which these days is the slide front. So as long as that is the prevalent action, I think most slides will have a solid nose.

I think if Beretta were building the 92 today with optics in mind, there probably wouldn't be anything on top of the barrel at the front.  No real need for it. You also see bits of that with guns like the Laugo Alien (which I know has a full sight rail, but an openish front slide). The Maxim 9 also had a no front slide, albeit for a completely different design purpose.

So, maybe? If we get away from tilting barrel that needs support at the front end.  Failing that, you already see huge ports and windows to lighten the slide and allow barrel porting.

[MechAg94]

I would not want my dot to co-witness with irons.  One of the benefits of the RDS is that you have less stuff in your way while viewing downrange.  Bringing the slide and my hands back "up" to cover the bottom half of the world is counterproductive.

If you mean the window is low enough you can use iron sights through the bottom of the window, that's a different thing.  Perhaps some might like that.  When I do my occasional "dead dot" drills, i find that I don't go back to my sights, I index on the target, put the window on the torso, and blaze away.

These conversations amuse me.  No one (anymore) seriously argues that you shouldn't put an optic on a fighting rifle for [reasons]. 

ETA because Lennyjoe and I crossposted.  I built a couple pistols with suppressor height sights and red dots so that I could use both.  I don't tend to run those guns much anymore, and I find I prefer not having the sights in the way.

The latter is what I meant.  That you can see both through the sight window.  If the dot stops working, you can at least retain some ability to shoot accurately. 

I agree with you on the progression.  They are already getting smaller and the battery life is getting long enough.  I think we will see them mount lower on the pistol and fully enclosed will gain some traction.  The cost for functional sights are getting lower as well.

As far as rifle sights, what I have been wondering if why there aren't more smaller back up iron sights that fold down lower.  I have seen a couple, but they are pretty expensive.

[dogmush]

I have some nice low ones on my MK12 build, but I never use them.

[gunsmith]

that video has been on my watch later list since it came out 
Bidenflation hitting me hard, I'll look at it when I can afford to look at it.

[French G.]

Wait a minute here! You mean you people look at your sights? Fascinating.

[Bogie]

20-odd years ago, I was outshooting a buddy who had a brand new scope on an SKS with a 6" dan wesson with a red dot on it...

[Angel Eyes]

My S&W MP 2.0 10MM came with iron sights tall enough to cowitness with my Holosun red dot.

I’m still getting used to red dots but they’re quickly taking over especially with my aging eyesight and glasses.

Yep, those of us with aging eyes will probably appreciate the red-dot more than the young whipper-snappers.

Thread drift:  how do you like your S&W in 10mm? 

[Lennyjoe]

Thread drift:  how do you like your S&W in 10mm?

Enough that it’s now my favorite over my G20 and Springfield Elite 3.8” 10MM.

The grip is more comfortable than the 2 above and it’s a well balanced firearm.  Shoots just as good as the other 2 but again, it feels much better in my hands.