Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: WLJ on August 04, 2020, 12:44:50 PM
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Some rather impressive video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vVIf0HkqHU
Beirut blast: Explosion rocks city ahead of Hariri verdict
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53656220
A UN tribunal is due to issue its verdict in the trial of four suspects in the murder by car bomb of Hariri.
All four are members of the Iranian-backed Hezbollah group, which has consistently denied any role in Hariri's death. They are being tried in absentia and the verdict is due on Friday.
The possible second explosion was reported to be at the Hariri residence in the city.
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More video
Wow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=vS1E5upLv0g&feature=emb_logo
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Looks like Lebanon is spiraling around the drain again. What a darn shame.
It will be interesting to see how much explosive was used for that bomb, and what type it was. That's assuming it will ever be determined with any certainty.
Probably military grade munitions supplied by Iran.
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I think it was some sort of industrial/shipping accident
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I think it was some sort of industrial/shipping accident
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I think it was some sort of industrial accident
That was my first thought when I saw it, but given the recent unrest I wouldn't discount terrorism just yet. Lebanon has suffered so much over the years. I really hope it was just an industrial accident and not a harbinger of things to come.
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The blast occurred in the city’s port area, where there were warehouses housing explosives, Lebanon’s state news agency NNA and two security sources said. A third security source said there were chemcials stored in the area.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lebanon-security-blast/large-blast-in-beirut-port-area-rocks-lebanons-capital-many-people-hurt-idUSKCN25021M
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Bunch of videos:
https://twitter.com/doranimated
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From some of the videos it looks like fireworks are going off in the cloud from the first explosion. There is also a video taken across a street from a burning building where what sounds and looks like firecrackers are exploding. You can see flashes through the smoke pouring through the windows. The second explosion occurs just as the volume of smoke pouring from the windows increases markedly.
There are also reports that Hezbollah had a missile factory in close vicinity.
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From some of the videos it looks like fireworks are going off in the cloud from the first explosion. There is also a video taken across a street from a burning building where what sounds and looks like firecrackers are exploding.
There are also reports that Hezbollah had a missile factory in close vicinity.
Key word there is "Had"
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Israel blamed in 5,4,3.......
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Israel blamed in 5,4,3.......
Of course it's Israel's fault. If Israel didn't exist, they wouldn't have to make rockets to shoot at them. Duh.
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Israel blamed in 5,4,3.......
Gotta be Trump's fault
And the NRA.
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Looks like they removed the 2nd video I posted for some reason
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Of course it's Israel's Fistful's fault. If Israel Fistful didn't exist, they wouldn't have to make rockets to shoot at them. Duh.
I can't believe I had to fix this.
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https://twitter.com/Doranimated/status/1290678095268241410
Looking at this video, it looks like there are a bunch of those ship loading cranes close to where the bigger blast originated. Makes me wonder if there was a ship load of explosives that went up. I guess it could be some sort of storage bunker or building. Either way, it looks like something started a fire that eventually set off ALL of the explosives.
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https://twitter.com/Doranimated/status/1290678095268241410
Looking at this video, it looks like there are a bunch of those ship loading cranes close to where the bigger blast originated. Makes me wonder if there was a ship load of explosives that went up. I guess it could be some sort of storage bunker or building. Either way, it looks like something started a fire that eventually set off ALL of the explosives.
There is (or was) a warehouse to the east of the silos. It looks to me like the north side of that building was on fire and was generating the small explosions. From the angles I've seen the large explosion appears to have been centered on that warehouse, not beyond it on a ship.
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My primitive understanding of explosive mechanics, gleaned after the Boston Marathon bombing, is that explosions can consist of 3 things: smoke, light, or energy. Slow explosions produce a lot of smoke. Like the conflagration of SpaceX's AMOS-6 static fire test that resulted in a destroyed rocket and payload. Or the Boston black powder pressure cooker. Smoke generation is usually a symptom of very imperfect combustion, starvation of oxidizer, I think.
Supposedly nuclear explosions generate a lot of light. Don't know, never seen one and hope never to. Fireworks also generate a lot of light, as does magnesium or phosphorus. So chemical sources can also generate light over smoke. Unsure of the "why" of it.
This explosion was a near perfect sphere of energy with very little smoke. I've heard that C4 and other similar military grade explosives are extraordinarily efficient in producing energy with minimal smoke and light. I was worried at first watching that I was seeing a nuclear explosion from the perfection of the sphere, but it appears to halt at about a 2-3 block radius or so. And didn't appear to knock down buildings inside that 3 block radius, other than possibly the source building.
ETA: Wow, watching it a few more times, I see shards of buildings 3 blocks away getting broken off and lifted into the sky. Big pieces, several feet square, accelerated pretty fast. This is the view from an apartment building probably a mile away or so, and elevated. And the neighboring big white building appears to just get FLATTENED by the shockwave.
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Multiple angles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqKn_3iJOP4
Looks like there was a fire before the detonation. Ammonium nitrate, possibly? That would be consistent with a shipping port where there might be a couple thousand tons of it stored somewhere.
Also, the giant red plum of... something... after the detonation. Any idea if that's an indicator of the material involved, or just dust/debris?
Brad
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Hint. Don't look at fires through windows.
In the Halifax explosion of 1917, "Hundreds of people who had been watching the fire from their homes were blinded when the blast wave shattered the windows in front of them."<- wiki
It wrenched my heart that a team of firefighters had disappeared.
:'( regardless of politics. Halifax: "Firefighter Billy Wells, who was thrown away from the explosion and had his clothes torn from his body, described the devastation survivors faced: 'The sight was awful, with people hanging out of windows dead. Some with their heads missing, and some thrown onto the overhead telegraph wires.' He was the only member of the eight-man crew of the fire engine Patricia to survive.[70] <-wiki
Must've been pretty humid judging from that cloud forming from the shock wave.
Don't know what the red plume was from. Strontium burns red, but that's when it's burning.
Titanium chips are used for the white sparkling effect in aerial displays.
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53656220
President Michel Aoun tweeted it was "unacceptable" that 2,750 tonnes of ammonium nitrate was stored unsafely.
:O :O :O
That....
That would definitely do it.
Holy crap.
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Don't know what the red plume was from. Strontium burns red, but that's when it's burning.
Titanium chips are used for the white sparkling effect in aerial displays.
I read elsewhere that the red was likely from burning NO2, especially if the Ammonium Nitrate is correct.
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(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7c/4a/8c/7c4a8c48da0ea10123070166f810adcc.gif)
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Per AmbulanceDriver's quote:
President Michel Aoun tweeted it was "unacceptable" that 2,750 tonnes of ammonium nitrate was stored unsafely.
No *expletive deleted*it, Sherlock.
It's kind of tragic that people still think NH4NO3 won't explode all by its lonesome. "Where's the fuel, where's the fuel?"
It's been theorized that in some cases, the "fuel" just acts as a more effective shock wave transmission medium between particles, and then only incidentally provides extra energy by its actual burning.
I guess big piles of it going off now and again doesn't happen quite often enough for the word to get around to everybody.
Yeah, the NOx does explain the redness --didn't think of that at the time. Duh, me, and thanks, makattak.
That business of the shock wave creating temporary water clouds is interesting. The cloud shows up best in the WLJ's BBC compendium of "disturbing images:"
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53656220
You can see the same effect in those videos of volcanos going off.
https://youtu.be/BUREX8aFbMs
https://youtu.be/rTnCsYh6wPg
(Among several others.)
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Any pictures of the aftermath of the area available yet? Be interesting to see what the destruction level is.
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Any pictures of the aftermath of the area available yet? Be interesting to see what the destruction level is.
(https://i.imgur.com/OvXqNWf.png) (https://imgur.com/OvXqNWf)
(https://i.imgur.com/3SWKDvE.png) (https://imgur.com/3SWKDvE)
(https://i.imgur.com/2PvnFaN.png)
(https://imgur.com/2PvnFaN)
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What's tragimusing is the notion that it couldn't be terrorism because it is all quite natural to store huge amounts of 'splody stuff near the docks.
Riiiiight. Couldn't be terrorism simply because of that fact.
Yikes.
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What's tragimusing is the notion that it couldn't be terrorism because it is all quite natural to store huge amounts of 'splody stuff near the docks.
Riiiiight. Couldn't be terrorism simply because of that fact.
Yikes.
When 2,300 tons of ammonium nitrate went boom in Texas
Texas City disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
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A news story said the nickname for the port of Beirut is "The Cave of Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves" because of the rampant corruption that goes on there.
I read that a Russian-owned cargo ship loaded with ammonium nitrate sailed into Beirut ~6 years ago for reasons that aren't quite clear, and Lebanese authorities seized the cargo and stored it. A port or customs official had been writing multiple letters to "authorities" for years pleading for help in disposing of this dangerous stuff, but was ignored.
Wonder who they're going to scapegoat.
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Ammonium nitrate disasters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate_disasters
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When 2,300 tons of ammonium nitrate went boom in Texas
Texas City disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
So you are saying there is a war on in Lebanon.
There was also the smaller explosion in West, Texas. The video I saw on it said it was sloppy storage and failure to keep chemical separated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Fertilizer_Company_explosion
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I heard someone speculating that this was Iranian missiles meant to be fired on Israel. Plausible, but no evidence. =D
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A news story said the nickname for the port of Beirut is "The Cave of Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves" because of the rampant corruption that goes on there.
I read that a Russian-owned cargo ship loaded with ammonium nitrate sailed into Beirut ~6 years ago for reasons that aren't quite clear, and Lebanese authorities seized the cargo and stored it. A port or customs official had been writing multiple letters to "authorities" for years pleading for help in disposing of this dangerous stuff, but was ignored.
Wonder who they're going to scapegoat.
The guy who's been writing letters for years. OBVIOUSLY. (Especially if he's dead.)
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Whoo doggie there are THOUSANDS of "explosives experts" on Facebook this morning sharing their knowledge... :rofl:
Best one I've seen?
That was a mininuke delivered by an Isralie midget submarine!
:facepalm:
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Whoo doggie there are THOUSANDS of "explosives experts" on Facebook this morning sharing their knowledge... :rofl:
Best one I've seen?
That was a mininuke delivered by an Isralie midget submarine!
:facepalm:
My favorite are the ones that say it's a DEW from Trumps Space Force.
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Whoo doggie there are THOUSANDS of "explosives experts" on Facebook this morning sharing their knowledge... :rofl:
Best one I've seen?
That was a mininuke delivered by an Isralie midget submarine!
:facepalm:
Obama would already be declaring sanctions and calling for a UN vote to denounce it
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Any pictures of the aftermath of the area available yet? Be interesting to see what the destruction level is.
It's Destruction Level BFC (Big Friggin' Crater)
Army uses RE of 0.42 for ammonium nitrate so 2,700 tons NH4NO3 are roughly equivalent to 1150 tons of TNT. Also, the tonnage quoted is likely metric tons. Converted for us non-metric types, this equates to 2970 standard tons NH4NO3 and appx 1250 standard tons TNT.
That's a lot of "POOF!".
Brad
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Caught some overflight video running on CNN this morning.
Jesus. Just Jesus.
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Just out of curiosity I looked up whats the lowest yield nuke warhead and it looks like the W54 wins at 10 to 1,000 tons TNT equivalent.
A variant of the warhead was used on the Davy Crockett. 10-20 tons equivalent
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"Before" overhead of the of area from Google Maps.
https://goo.gl/maps/qBpdAwqhnhAemJMDA
Based on the Google Maps embedded scale, I measure the elevator at roughly 450' long. Using aerial views of the crater I measure it at roughly 50% wider than the length of the elevator ... about 675 feet. Applying a general rule of thumb normally used for impact craters gives a guesstimated depth of approximately 220 ft. Call it 175 feet to account for the damping effects of water mass.
Brad
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Amazed that elevator is still, somewhat, standing
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Did Trump really say it was a bomb?
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Amazed that elevator is still, somewhat, standing
Concrete elevators are tough critters, especially when pressure waves are exterior rather than interior. A bunch of steel-reinforced concrete cylinders grouped together makes for a damned solid structure.
Brad
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The elevator blocking a lot of the blast may have saved a bunch of people
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/BE2BBA0C_5EA1_49AC_9F88_53B054F67315.jpeg)
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I'm surprised that neither of those ships was sunk.
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If you take a close look at the after picture, any number of those grain silo cylinders have been completely blown apart.
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Wonder if that grain elevator didn't mitigate at least a little of the shock wave for those in its "shadow" . . . not enough to save any nearby buildings on that little peninsula, but maybe those a kilometer or more away.
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It likely mitigated a LOT of the shock wave for things in its shadow. It absorbed some of it and redirected a lot more of it.
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I saw an article earlier today about this on either Forbes or Bloomberg that had a lot of technical information about AN and about explosives in general -- and it was all wrong. Also was barely relevant to the story.
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This was alleged to be video from the Beirut explosion. I saw it yesterday on a different channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiHna-KO_bY
It looks like it would have to have been taken either from the roof of the low building next to the silos. At 10 seconds in the major explosion goes off and the camera swerves to the left showing some sort of crane or port equipment visible on the north side of the port.
I have no idea how the person taking the video (or the phone it was recorded on) survived.
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Did Trump really say it was a bomb?
The report I saw was that Trump said it looked like a bomb.
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I have no idea how the person taking the video (or the phone it was recorded on) survived.
Not unknown to find film/video recorded by a, now, dead person
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The report I saw was that Trump said it looked like a bomb.
Some of Trump's military advisors thought it was a bomb. Given the history of Lebanon, it's a logical assumption.
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Not unknown to find film/video recorded by a, now, dead person
Except that this video was on the web very quickly after the explosions occurred. It made me wonder if the person that took the video was just incredibly fortunate and survived the blast.
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Except that this video was on the web very quickly after the explosions occurred. It made me wonder if the person that took the video was just incredibly fortunate and survived the blast.
Right. They would have been incredibly fortunate just to survive long enough to get their phone to safety.
If they had died in the blast I'd expect it to have taken longer than a few hours to get to them,recover their phone, and pull the video off.
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I would be buying a lottery ticket
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Right. They would have been incredibly fortunate just to survive long enough to get their phone to safety.
If they had died in the blast I'd expect it to have taken longer than a few hours to get to them,recover their phone, and pull the video off.
That person's story is bound to be interesting. If they indeed were lucky enough to survive, I hope it comes out.
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Surviving being that close to a 1kt blast would indeed be a story
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This was alleged to be video from the Beirut explosion. I saw it yesterday on a different channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiHna-KO_bY
It looks like it would have to have been taken either from the roof of the low building next to the silos. At 10 seconds in the major explosion goes off and the camera swerves to the left showing some sort of crane or port equipment visible on the north side of the port.
I have no idea how the person taking the video (or the phone it was recorded on) survived.
Looking at the beginning of that, could a fire in a fireworks plant or storage area have led to the rest of it?
The guy could have been live streaming.
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^ WLJ:
"Surviving being that close to a 1kt blast would indeed be a story."
Need they have actually been that close with a zoom lens?
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^ WLJ:
"Surviving being that close to a 1kt blast would indeed be a story."
Need they have actually been that close with a zoom lens?
It appears he/she was on the roof of the elevators looking down at the fire, it's the only building that high and close enough to do that from. So I would say close
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If they were on the roof of the elevators looking down, that means that they were standing on the portion of the elevator structure that was destroyed. I simply can't buy that someone was that close to the source of the explosion and survived.
Was it a person recording, or was it a rotatable camera being controlled by someone somewhere else?
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If they were on the roof of the elevators looking down, that means that they were standing on the portion of the elevator structure that was destroyed. I simply can't buy that someone was that close to the source of the explosion and survived.
Was it a person recording, or was it a rotatable camera being controlled by someone somewhere else?
I agree. MechAg94 did ask above if they could have been live streaming.
From the motion I would say someone was holding the camera
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Speaking of time, can the distance be figured from the flash-boom timing involved?
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And to add to what I said above
And holding the camera/phone vertically which is another sign a person is holding a phone
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Good point. Never occurred to me since I never use my cell phone camera and my regular pocket camera is sort of "automatically" held in the hand with landscape orientation.
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If they were on the roof of the elevators looking down, that means that they were standing on the portion of the elevator structure that was destroyed. I simply can't buy that someone was that close to the source of the explosion and survived.
That part of the building may have just barely survived the explosion and been covered with grain (or whatever was in the silos). It is possible the silos didn't spill for long enough for him to escape ... maybe.
Also, a huge amount of the building damage was done by fire over the following hours. So maybe the guy lived long enough to get away from there.
Or maybe MechAg94 was right and he was livestreaming his last seconds, although the fact that just before the video cuts out you can hear someone speaking is probably a good sign.
Was it a person recording, or was it a rotatable camera being controlled by someone somewhere else?
It was a person. They walk around and at one point you can even see their shadow.
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‘Absolutely insane’: Heart-stopping footage shows Beirut bride’s dream become a nightmare at the moment of deadly explosion [video]
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2020/08/05/absolutely-insane-heart-stopping-footage-shows-beirut-brides-dream-become-a-nightmare-at-the-moment-of-deadly-explosion-video/
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1291037496919261185
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That part of the building may have just barely survived the explosion and been covered with grain (or whatever was in the silos). It is possible the silos didn't spill for long enough for him to escape ... maybe.
Also, a huge amount of the building damage was done by fire over the following hours. So maybe the guy lived long enough to get away from there.
Or maybe MechAg94 was right and he was livestreaming his last seconds, although the fact that just before the video cuts out you can hear someone speaking is probably a good sign.
It was a person. They walk around and at one point you can even see their shadow.
I'm still finding it to be problematic as hell. The concussion from an explosion that big, even with partial shielding, should have been more than enough to either cause significant trauma even if it didn't cause immediate death.
A blast powerful enough to crumble reinforced silos like that?
Sorry, but I'm just not buying it. Maybe by some miracle, but until I see something proving it, I'm EXTREMELY dubious.
Oh, and regarding fire, the after pictures don't indicate much in the way of fire damage to the silos, nor do the before pictures indicate much in the way of fuel to be burned in the surrounding area.
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Just saw an official announcement on TV...
Everyone who is confirmed dead in the explosion expired due to COVID-19.
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I was interested to read the Wikipedia article on ammonium nitrate disasters. Especially the part where ammonium nitrate congeals into a big lump, and the standard of care is to use explosives to break the big lump into little lumps.
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Ammonium Nitrate is EXTREMELY hygroscopic. As in, if you're drinking a beer across the room from ammonium nitrate, it will drink your beer faster than you can.
In pelletized form it's normally coated with a barrier to cut down on its hygroscopic tendencies, but through handling and storage and time those coatings break down.
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I was interested to read the Wikipedia article on ammonium nitrate disasters. Especially the part where ammonium nitrate congeals into a big lump, and the standard of care is to use explosives to break the big lump into little lumps.
Which works great, until it doesn't:
https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2017/03/03/how-not-to-do-it-breaking-up-ammonium-nitrate
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I'm still finding it to be problematic as hell. The concussion from an explosion that big, even with partial shielding, should have been more than enough to either cause significant trauma even if it didn't cause immediate death.
Same here. The dynamic pressures necessary to destabilize steel-reinforced concrete are well beyond lethal limits for us Ugly Giant Bags of Mostly Water. If someone at that distance survived it would be a genuine one-in-a-million happenstance.
Brad
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My understanding is that there were two explosions.
A fire started (eventually with fireworks going off in it), which lead up to the first explosion (caught on camera by the guy just above in the thread). This first explosion is actually the reason most people who caught the whopper had their phones out. Then as the fire continued, now making an even larger smoke plume, you suddenly get the big one. If that guy had been standing at the place shown in the video when the big one went off, he'd have landed on the other side of the bay.
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Yep, the first one was reported to be a fireworks factory/storage which would explain both the colored smoke and the flashes of light.
Lets put a big pile of AN next to a fireworks factory. What could possibly go wrong?
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I agree. MechAg94 did ask above if they could have been live streaming.
From the motion I would say someone was holding the camera
A person live streaming is sounding like the most probable explanation. That close to the second blast would make survival unlikely IMO.
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Yep, the first one was reported to be a fireworks factory/storage which would explain both the colored smoke and the flashes of light.
Lets put a big pile of AN next to a fireworks factory. What could possibly go wrong?
Allahu Akbar OSHA is a little different than US OSHA
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Allahu Akbar OSHA is a little different than US OSHA
(https://www.thesociologicalcinema.com/uploads/4/8/3/9/4839762/4985772.jpg?1357317879)
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Views from the ground. Crazy stuff on the highway starting around the 2 minute mark, cars flipped, maybe from accidents, a fair distance away from ground zero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwWIonkRB2Y
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(https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/BEIRUT-CRATER.gif)
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‘Absolutely insane’: Heart-stopping footage shows Beirut bride’s dream become a nightmare at the moment of deadly explosion [video]
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2020/08/05/absolutely-insane-heart-stopping-footage-shows-beirut-brides-dream-become-a-nightmare-at-the-moment-of-deadly-explosion-video/
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1291037496919261185
Now that's what I call celebratory gunfire.
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Frame by frame = wow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr9_kvw2aO0
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Okay, what? [tinfoil] [tinfoil] [tinfoil] [tinfoil] [tinfoil]
Far-right conspiracy theorists, including QAnon supporters, have also started sharing false claims about the explosion on Facebook. They suggest that the attack is related to a "war between the government and the central banking system".
QAnon is a wide-ranging, unfounded conspiracy theory that says US President Donald Trump is waging a secret war against elite Satan-worshipping paedophiles in government, business and the media.
Beirut explosion: How conspiracy theories spread on social media
https://www.bbc.com/news/53669029
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It's not the Middle East's week
UAE: Massive fire breaks out in Ajman market
https://www.timesnownews.com/international/article/uae-massive-fire-breaks-out-in-ajman-market-watch/632570
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cgDCnkcrzc
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Have you seen what has happened in Iran over the last month?
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Have you seen what has happened in Iran over the last month?
You referring to this?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53598965
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"No boom today. Boom tomorrow."
Oops, never mind. Boom today.
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Yep, the first one was reported to be a fireworks factory/storage which would explain both the colored smoke and the flashes of light.
Let's put a big pile of AN next to a fireworks factory. What could possibly go wrong?
SPEC
Watching those flashes in the smoke cloud, I start thinking maybe an aerial salute from the fireworks outfit flew into the AN storage hangar and that's what set it all off.
Just a thought.
ULATION
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"No boom today. Boom tomorrow."
Oops, never mind. Boom today.
:laugh:
https://youtu.be/299knTdX-Wo
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A good breakdown from an explosive expert/chemist and they tease a future demo they're going to do with AN:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPf3P-1PEBw
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They're trying to get to an underground room under the grain elevator where they hope to find survivors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhLpFnTrn8Y
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Another wedding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAAEPJzw-Hw
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AMMONIUM NITRATE DOUBLETHINK
A good breakdown from an explosive expert/chemist and they tease a future demo they're going to do with AN:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPf3P-1PEBw
Struck me as about 80% blather. Hi, Mom.
Their chart at ~5:03:
Melts 337°F
Boils 410°F
Paraquote: "At which point it will explosively decompose."
Paraquote:
"AN is not an explosive, but under the right conditions it will detonate."
I guess for DOT purposes, technically it is a "Strong Oxidizer" or something like that.
But I think large quantities of this "strong oxidizer" ought to be kept in magazines, like firearms propellants in large quantities.
You know, even single based propellant powders, like IMR 4350, can detonate if pushed hard enough... "pushed" meaning like the transfer of energy from a .30-'06 to a barrel full of it. (See Hatcher's Notebook.) And let's remember that temperature (e.g. 410°F) is actually a measure of the velocities of atoms or moleculres or a 150 grain bullet.
I think the flashes were not individual units of AN going off, but rather, since they occurred while apparently airborne, fireworks from the fireworks outfit. Thus I can easily imagine an aerial salute getting into the AN storehouse and detonating the whole mess, as I speculated earlier in this thread. (http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=62659.msg1265685#msg1265685)
I respect their professional expertise, but I thnk they missed a couple of points and seemed to want to echo the Ag and Transportation industries' apparent position that Ammonium Nitrate is safe.
Well, maybe a couple hundred pounds of it, but not 2500 tons. As evidenced multiple times by documented history.
The risk management analyisis seems to need adjusting. "Aw, hell, it only destroys a city only every decade or so, so why bother changing the regulations?"
I really have to laugh tragically at this whole notion that it's not an explosive, since it only goes off under the right conditions.
Talk about doublethink. :rofl: :(
Terry, 230RN
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Candy-gram for
Mongo Achmed
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Look at the windows dancing in that second wedding video. Holy crap.
Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk
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"AN is not an explosive, but under the right conditions it will detonate."
I guess for DOT purposes, technically it is a "Strong Oxidizer" or something like that.
But I think large quantities of this "strong oxidizer" ought to be kept in magazines, like firearms propellants in large quantities.
Terry, 230RN
It's stable and harmless unless heated to beyond 400 deg F. No need for extraordinary measures other than keeping it dry and isolated from high heat sources. In this case it was a perfect *expletive deleted*it storm of fail in all respects.
Brad
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I don’t believe a firework magic bullet exploding in a pile of AN would be likely to set it off. If it were that sensitive it probably would be treated as a secondary explosive instead of a vastly less sensitive tertiary explosive. Also it would make the whole explosive fracturing of AN thing completely untenable.
I think it is much more likely that - just as in most AN industrial explosions - there was a serious fire that caused thermal decomposition while simultaneously adding sensitizing compounds in ash and smoke. The fireworks likely contributed to the initial explosion and fire, but I don’t think they were necessary for the AN to detonate.
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^ "The fireworks likely contributed to the initial explosion and fire, but I don’t think they were necessary for the AN to detonate. " ???
^^ "It's stable and harmless unless heated to beyond 400 deg F. No need for extraordinary measures other than keeping it dry and isolated from high heat sources. In this case it was a perfect *expletive deleted*it storm of fail in all respects."
It's safe, but it isn't.
Doublethink.
The point I was making was that temperature = velocity, and that even such stable compounds as IMR 4350 can go off if subjected to a high enough velocity (temperature) encounter. So the "400 degree temperature" can simply occur with a collision, as in the IMR 4350 example. (At which point, as the videographers noted, it can continue to decompose exothermically in a runaway fashion.)
But I'm not suggesting that any "magic bullet" (say whut?) set it off, I'm speculating, based on the prior flashes, that an explosive pyrotechnic from the factory might have got in with it in its storage facility and set it off with its own shock wave. Maybe.
That re-started a discussion of how safe it is.
Nitroglycerine, too, is safe unless mishandled or stored unsafely.
So is nitrogen tri-iodide. Which, "when kept cold in the dark and damp with ammonia, NI3 · NH3 is stable. "
It's "safe," but it isn't. (I really had to roffle at that cold and in the dark description.)
Doublethink.
And the extraordinary circumstances under which AN can be unsafe seem to occur with "irregular regularity."
Terry
REFs:
Reply #89 herein.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_triiodide
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Straining at gnats much?
My point was that a large enough fire is typically sufficient without the use of a primary explosive initiator. In other words, had the fire instead started via a cigarette discarded into fast food wrappers and still spread enough it likely would have still exploded.
As far as your deep concern about doublethink, I’m not aware of anything that is 100% in all circumstances safe. AN can apparently be relatively safely stored in bulk but if exposed to a large fire it can become dangerous.
Water can be relatively safely stored too, but can also be a catastrophe in the wrong circumstances.
A can of gasoline can be relatively safely stored in an appropriate container in your garage, but aerosolized and mixed with oxygen and exposed to a spark and you have a bomb.
For that matter, most houses exposed to fire can kill you six or seven different ways if you are stuck in the structure. Safe as houses my rear end!
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I got some stumps I need to remove but all I have is about 50 pounds of thermite and 10-20 pounds of black. Maybe I should run by the farm store next week and see what they have.
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Most of the farm stores around here sell tannerite.
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Unfortunately AN is one of those things that (as has been pointed out) is really a very safe chemical. But when things go wrong, they go *really* wrong. History is filled with examples of AN going all asplody when everything goes wrong. So I would agree with the videos assertion that AN is not an explosive, but it can definitely go boom in the wrong circumstances.
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I thank you, cordex and others. So how come it keeps happening?
It's safe and it blows cities apart every once in a while and it leeps keeps happening.
So doublethink: the ability to hold two exactly opposite positions at the same time.
By the way, if I am recalling correctly (perhaps from a BATFE memo?), you are only allowed to possess 10lb of Tannerite mix, it has to be mixed where it is used, and it's only for entertainment purposes.
Somebody correct me on that, please, that info may be outdated.
Also, AFAIK, KNO3 is sold in bulk in most rural garden stores as a stump remover.
Now, lest I be accused of adding additional information for the unworthy purpose of changing the subject, I repeat part of the beginning of this post:
It's safe and it blows entire cities apart every once in a while and it keeps happening.
So doublethink: the ability to hold two exactly opposite positions at the same time.
Gnats? Nuts.
Terry, 230RN
Edited for housekeeping: "leeps"
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So with a sufficient size pile, you get tactical nuke level explosions?
Hmmmmm. I guess plutonium only detonated in specific circumstances too.
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Because it is cheap, widely used around the world, and because it costs less to store it incorrectly than to take precautions? Tens of millions of tons of the stuff are made and used every year. Yes, a tiny percentage is stored improperly and can every once in a while blow up. In this case it is possible that government corruption played a role as well.
Again, water is “safe” to store in large quantities too, but cities are damaged or destroyed every year because dams or levees fail. Just because something is usually safe doesn’t mean it is perfectly, and always safe, or that it can’t ever go catastrophically wrong.
No one is saying that ammonium nitrate is 100% and absolutely safe.
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^ You were, essentially. Wow. A chink in your thinking. Gnats, nuts.
So with a sufficient size pile, you get tactical nuke level explosions?
...
Sorta yes.
While not AN, but other conventional explosives, see "Trinity Test Calibration shot" and "Operation Minor Scale," et cetera for examples of conventional explosives used to simulate nukes.
The former involved TNT and the latter ANFO (fuel oil mixed with the AN.)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EeoAAOPXkAcXXrW?format=jpg&name=small)
^Minor Scale
The W54 was one of the smallest nuclear warheads deployed by the United States. It was a very compact implosion-type nuclear weapon design, designed for tactical use and had a very low yield for a nuclear weapon, in the range of 10 to 1,000 tons TNT equivalent. (wiki)
So yes. sorta, (There were some explosive equivalencies stated earlier in this thread.)
Your risk assessment is off-kilter and AN ain't safe and large quantities should be stored in properly engineered magazines.
The point is this: It doesn't matter how it went off, whether from internal fires, or aerial salutes getting in, or cigarettes wrapped in candy bar wrappers, or lightning strikes, or ship collisions, or spontaneous combustion...
It friggin' went off.
Viz, Beirut, 04 August 2020, 15:08:18 UTC, viz Texas City, viz Halifax...
It friggin' went off.
Terry said that and he ain't takin' it back.
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"So how come it keeps happening?"
Why do natural gas explosions keep happening?
Maybe because... it's cheap, it's relatively safe, it does the jobs asked of it well?
Maybe because sometimes things happen because of unforeseen factors or just out and out mistakes?
It's not like these explosions happen every 3 days and twice on Tuesdays. Quadruplethink!
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When was the last time a natural gas explosion took out a whole city?
Your risk assessment process is off kilter.
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A WHOLE city?
So, Beirut, Lebanon, has completely ceased to exist?
Gone! GAME OVER, MAN!
Your assessment of the damage is a bit... bullshit.
Here... Wikipedia has a fairly comprehensive list of natural, propane, and gasoline explosions, including more than few that killed 100+ people... including the Cleveland East explosion that killed about 130 people and destroyed a square mile of Cleveland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_explosion
Those are just from the 1900s. Natural and/or manmade (town) gas have been in use in the west for the better part of 250 years.
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<off topic>
Tsk, tsk. Such language. You shouldn't post when you're angry, Mike.
</off topic>
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And I'd advise you to not post at all if your analysis is that Beirut is gone... ;/
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Don't be ridiculous.
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(https://miro.medium.com/max/1280/1*ZIrUFe3qjR52O81BnYls0w.gif)
:lol:
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Yeah, agreed. I say, let Mike have the last expletive, and then close the thread. How about it, OP?
:rofl:
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You asked the last time a natural gas explosion took out 'an entire city.'
I pointed out that Beirut isn't gone. Texas City wasn't removed from the map. Halifax didn't land on the moon.
I provided a list of examples where natural gas caused enormous explosions that caused significant city damage and loss of life to counter your apparent belief that AN explosions are common place.
And all you can concentrate on a single *GASP!* swear...
Deflection from your incorrect assessment of the nature and extent of the disaster.
You and others have been beating the conspiracy drum in this thread since the beginning with absolutely nothing but paranoia to support it.
And, if you're so very, very upset by the presence of swears in this thread...
Why did you swear (and depend on the censor filter to hold up your pants) in reply 23?
Your words... "No *expletive deleted*it, Sherlock."
Naughty naughty, Terry. Maybe go stand in the corner and think about your potty mouth calling the kettle black?
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Back on topic
Video from very early in the fire. May give more clues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSsYSdg7wIE
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I feel for those firefighters and their families.
I'm surprised the elevators weren't knocked over. Must have been the mass of grain resisting the blast.
DId they ever dig down to the subterranean chamber and find anyone there?
Terry
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it is possible that government corruption played a role as well.
Possible?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Back on topic
Video from very early in the fire. May give more clues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSsYSdg7wIE
There was a smaller explosion about 30 seconds before this whole thing detonated.
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I feel for those firefighters and their families.
I'm surprised the elevators weren't knocked over. Must have been the mass of grain resisting the blast.
DId they ever dig down to the subterranean chamber and find anyone there?
Terry
Saw a video last night where they said there's a "Labyrinth" of rooms and passageways under the elevators. Video showed they found one and were trying to dig under the mass of grain and debris to reach the others but no one found yet.
Sorry, having trouble finding the same video at the moment
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^ You were, essentially. Wow. A chink in your thinking. Gnats, nuts.
I was not, but if there is a place where I or anyone else said that then please point me in that direction.
Your risk assessment is off-kilter and AN ain't safe and large quantities should be stored in properly engineered magazines.
Interesting idea. Do you further propose that any and all materials which can act as a tertiary explosive should be regulated and stored in explosives magazines and all that entails? Have you thought this through?
I do wonder how the drastically increased price and decreased availability of effective fertilizer would impact food production. Would be a shame if Terry’s Law ended up killing more people through starvation than it saved from exploding.
That said, I agree that in this case (and many others) the AN was not being stored wisely, or correctly stored.
Which does not mean that it needs to be stored in explosives magazines.
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The larger question is not whether or not it was stored "correctly" but why was it still there in the first place after sitting there for what, 6 years? Considering how cash strapped Lebanon is it seems like someone would have tried to sell it on the open market by now. What is 2,700 tonnes of AN worth? How much space does it take up? It's probably taking up valuable warehouse space
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What is 2,700 tonnes of AN worth? How much space does it take up?
A) About a million five at current prices.
B) A lot. AN is relatively bulky per unit weight.
Brad
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"Saw a video last night where they said there's a "Labyrinth" of rooms and passageways under the elevators."
Yep. Large grain elevators can have huge amounts of work space under ground.
And grain elevators have been known to go all 'splody on their own due to grain dust or gas from improperly dried grain.
QUITE energetic, actually.
A 1980s era OSHA video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRstLU9v3gg
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Grain isn’t safe and should be stored in explosives magazines!
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Grain isn’t safe and should be stored in explosives magazines!
So, a modern grain silo? =D
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"A) About a million five at current prices."
That's barely enough to pay the bribe to the port master, let alone everyone else who dips their wick in it.
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"A) About a million five at current prices."
That's barely enough to pay the bribe to the port master, let alone everyone else who dips their wick in it.
Which is why it was still there six years later.
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So, a modern grain silo? =D
Is that where you store your flour?
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Meanwhile in Russia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUXvtVDb--E
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Let's not even talk about how thoroughly and energetically flour mills can go boom...
My Grandmother told me once that the apartment building she lived in when she was a kid had garbage chutes right down into the incinerator.
One of the neighbors threw a flour sack down the chute and it caused an explosion that did quite a bit of damage to the building.
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News reports of a massive explosion in the city of Baltimore.
Some incredible photos: https://www.foxnews.com/us/major-explosion-in-baltimore-adults-and-children-trapped-reports-say
So, the question is, what caused it?
1. Small tactical nuke delivered by Israle/Hamas/Taliban/Illuminati?
2. Poor storage of ammonium nitrate?
3. A fireworks factory?
4. Dust from a grain silo/flour mill/coal mine/lycopodium grow operation?
5. Meth factory?
6. Natural gas leak?
7. Space aliens?
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I guess the real take away from the most recent boom is that Baltimore should be stored in an explosives magazine... :rofl:
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News reports of a massive explosion in the city of Baltimore.
Some incredible photos: https://www.foxnews.com/us/major-explosion-in-baltimore-adults-and-children-trapped-reports-say
So, the question is, what caused it?
1. Small tactical nuke delivered by Israle/Hamas/Taliban/Illuminati?
2. Poor storage of ammonium nitrate?
3. A fireworks factory?
4. Dust from a grain silo/flour mill/coal mine/lycopodium grow operation?
5. Meth factory?
6. Natural gas leak?
7. Space aliens?
8. SJW saw a Trump sign
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8. SJW saw a Trump sign
Couldn't have been. The high-pitched keening wail would have shattered windows all the way to the Allegheny mountains.
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8. SJW saw a Trump sign
Best one I saw was Mia Kalhifa's Dad finally went and Googled her...
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News reports of a massive explosion in the city of Baltimore.
Some incredible photos: https://www.foxnews.com/us/major-explosion-in-baltimore-adults-and-children-trapped-reports-say
So, the question is, what caused it?
1. Small tactical nuke delivered by Israle/Hamas/Taliban/Illuminati?
2. Poor storage of ammonium nitrate?
3. A fireworks factory?
4. Dust from a grain silo/flour mill/coal mine/lycopodium grow operation?
5. Meth factory?
6. Natural gas leak?
7. Space aliens?
Just because I'm annoyed at the Revenge of the Cis guys being idiots.... IT WAS TEH JEWZ!
Seriously, that one one is getting old.
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Dude, haven't you figured out by now that it's ALWAYS the Jooze?
Even if it's radical Islamic terrorist it's still, somehow, the fault of the Jooze.
And the Orange Man. Can't forget his culpability.
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White priv'lige and globular worming.
Brad
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1:00 If that 's not fireworks going what else could it be?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaDsvmWggug
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Oops. Meant as a PM, deleted.
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View angle I hadn't seen yet. Good view of the effect of the blast wave on buildings. Good drone footage towards the end
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DH0URNodcQ
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Dude, haven't you figured out by now that it's ALWAYS the Jooze?
Even if it's radical Islamic terrorist it's still, somehow, the fault of the Jooze.
And the Orange Man. Can't forget his culpability.
Well even if it WAS radical (sic) islamics, clearly the JOOZE started it so they're off the hook. Or they were provoked by evil drumfler. So also clearly justified. >:D
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View angle I hadn't seen yet. Good view of the effect of the blast wave on buildings. Good drone footage towards the end
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DH0URNodcQ
Jesus. In the slow motion you can see that black building on the right just starting to come apart. Looks to be glass and exterior cladding.
Unfortunately my Spanish is a little rusty and I wasn't able to read all of that; I'd have to sit down and really chew through it, but from what I could tell, nothing really new reported in that clip.
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View angle I hadn't seen yet. Good view of the effect of the blast wave on buildings. Good drone footage towards the end
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DH0URNodcQ
Amazing footage.
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Well even if it WAS radical (sic) islamics, clearly the JOOZE started it so they're off the hook. Or they were provoked by evil drumfler. So also clearly justified. >:D
Now you're getting it.
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Unfortunately my Spanish is a little rusty and I wasn't able to read all of that; I'd have to sit down and really chew through it, but from what I could tell, nothing really new reported in that clip.
Tried find to find an English version and found one but it was 90% talking heads
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I saw footage of some high rises where it looked like just about everything but the steel frame itself was wiped out - the blast wave came in one side and went out the other, taking everything else with it.
And as for the "fireworks" fire before the big bang . . . I just have to wonder whether or not it was some of Hezbolla's munitions rather than simple celebratory fireworks.
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I saw footage of some high rises where it looked like just about everything but the steel frame itself was wiped out - the blast wave came in one side and went out the other, taking everything else with it.
And as for the "fireworks" fire before the big bank . . . I just have to wonder whether or not it was some of Hezbolla's munitions rather than simple celebratory fireworks.
I could be wrong but most videos of munitions going off that I've seen they weren't that flashy(?). I'm sure a lot would depend on what kind of munitions.
I've not seen anything YET that would made me think this was anything but a Murphy + Murphy = Boom
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You sure about that?
Solid reports put this guy in the vicinity right before the blasts...
(https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th/id/OIP.sGjMvO8kDUg1uA2fZHb48wHaFT?pid=Api&rs=1)
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(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/03/ca/56/03ca566a8425b37e663bf1bd81ffe61b.jpg)
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Full and no talking heads verison of the last video I posted
1:59 That's IMHO definitely fireworks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlvnsecLRmM