Poll: Should public schools be abolished?

[MillCreek]

The "level playing field" concept is precisely what has ruined public schools. Why transfer that concept to private schools?

If indeed private schools are so much better, then they should be able to overcome this. If much of the success of private schools comes from their ability to select the students, then we should not criticize public schools for their results that may come from having to take all comers.

My wife has taught in both public and private schools and put her kids in a private high school. She is of the opinion that the cost and selectiveness of private schools tend to select out for a better grade of parent and student and you consequently get better results, because the kids and parents are motivated.  If private schools had to accept and keep all comers, she thinks that most of them would end up not significantly different than the public schools.  She thinks that the socioeconomic status of the parents and their involvement with the kids is still the most important factor, regardless of the school setting.  

[Fitz]

The time and effort spent supporting the idiots, the demotivated, the thugs, and the other inmates DRASTICALLY reduce quality of education for the ones who want to be there.

I say again: anything with a "level playing field" concept is doomed to failure because of this.

[Jamie B]

Bitch all you want, but unless there is some common benchmark in place there can be no transferring between schools, entrance to various colleges, nor transfer of credit hours, etc.

[Fitz]

That's another thing...



anyone else here think that colleges could be better able to judge people based on their writing and personal interviews than their SAT/ACT/other retarded test scores?

[makattak]

That's another thing...



anyone else here think that colleges could be better able to judge people based on their writing and personal interviews than their SAT/ACT/other retarded test scores?

I don't. The results of standardized testing are VERY highly correlated with expected performance in college courses. (This is why I tend to point out the average SAT/ACT scores of students who choose education as a major...)

[Perd Hapley]

Bitch all you want, but unless there is some common benchmark in place there can be no transferring between schools, entrance to various colleges, nor transfer of credit hours, etc.

Why do we need public schooling for this? SAT and ACT are run by private organizations, you know.

[Fitz]

I don't know. Perhaps it's just anecdotal, but I know plenty of people who had high SAT scores that turned out worthless.

Besides, what in the hell does SAT scores have to do with public education, anyways?

Last I checked, the gummint didn't run that stuff.

[MillCreek]

I don't. The results of standardized testing are VERY highly correlated with expected performance in college courses. (This is why I tend to point out the average SAT/ACT scores of students who choose education as a major...)

Actually, in the book 'The Big Test' and other articles/books, the SAT scores only correlate to success in the first year of college, if I recall correctly.  Not necessarily graduation or overall GPA.

[makattak]

Actually, in the book 'The Big Test' and other articles/books, the SAT scores only correlate to success in the first year of college, if I recall correctly.  Not necessarily graduation or overall GPA.

So, even if I accept the premise of a book written by a biased author confirming their preconceived position (with very little statistical rigor), what you are saying is the SAT is a good measure of how prepared a student is for college?

[Jamie B]

Why do we need public schooling for this? SAT and ACT are run by private organizations, you know.

So if the masses are home schooling, how will there be any commonality of education between those millions of households?
Does every body use a dart board for curriculum choices, or secret decoder rings?

[makattak]

So if the masses are home schooling, how will there be any commonality of education between those millions of households?
Does every body use a dart board for curriculum choices, or secret decoder rings?

You don't know much about homeschooling, do you?

[MicroBalrog]

Sure. Consistent.... if by consistent you mean "we train to the test instead of actually teaching the children."

That's sort of going to happen as long as there are tests, though.

As a student, I am invited to attend historical conference. One was dedicate to the teaching of history in high schools. Professors and industry professionals spoke. It was... very eye-opening on the subject of testing.

[Jamie B]

You don't know much about homeschooling, do you?

What I have seen around here is a complete joke.

[MillCreek]

So, even if I accept the premise of a book written by a biased author confirming their preconceived position (with very little statistical rigor), what you are saying is the SAT is a good measure of how prepared a student is for college?

Not being an expert in the field, and having read this book many years ago, I merely relay my recall of one of the main premises of the book.  By your choice of language, it certainly sounds as if you have an opinion, though.

[roo_ster]

Bitch all you want, but unless there is some common benchmark in place there can be no transferring between schools, entrance to various colleges, nor transfer of credit hours, etc.

That is why the SAT & ACT were invented: so that kids of ability from crappy schools could get a shot.

There is educational consistency which is confirmed through standardized testing.

BTW, there is no academic consistency.

Standardized testing does not mean anything is consistent between schools.  It is a metric, that is all.

I would be a fan of vouchers if:

the private schools had to take all applicants, and provide them with the same education for the same amount of money as any other school.  So if you have a $ 5000 voucher, and your child requires special education, is disabled or is a disciplinary problem, any private school has to take your child and educate them for that $ 5000.

We ask the public schools to do this, so in a voucher system, why should the private schools be exempt?  I think it would create a nice level playing field that will give us the opportunity to see who does a better job. 

Uh, why?  Part of the idea behind a voucher system is a market: parents choosing schools and schools choosing kids (via entrance, performance, and behavior standards).  You know, choice & voluntary association. 

Parents who give a damn send their kids to academically/vocationally rigorous School A, parents who don't send their kids to McWarehousing.  Mixing the two is a disservice to the former and annoys the latter.  The educational analog to trying to teach a pig to sing.

Really, is it any surprise that kids from parents who are ignorant dumbasses with little impulse control are likely to be ignorant dumbasses with little impulse control?  I guess it is surprising to those who have squeezed common sense out of their brain by overexposure to Dept Ed coursework.

So if the masses are home schooling, how will there be any commonality of education between those millions of households?
Does every body use a dart board for curriculum choices, or secret decoder rings?

What is this hobby-horse of consistency & commonality supposed to get you?  Right now, the only consistency gov't education brings to the table is high cost, piss-poor results, and lack of choice.  We can have unmotivated students not learn much more cheaply if we can get over the idea of a socialist education system.  Pulling the wagon is getting tiring.  I'd like some relief, thanks.

Consistency WRT the SMET subjects (science, math, engineering, tech)  is baked into the cake.  Newtons Third Law is the same no matter the venue.  Same for English, outside of the goofball venues (remember, "Ebonics" was pushed by gov't school educritters, not home- or private-schoolers).

I don't see why we have to stick with an industrial era, progressive liberal fascist gov't education system when the rest of the economy has moved into the 21st century. 

[cosine]

What I have seen around here is a complete joke.

What parents put into homeschooling determines their children's success, very much like parents' involvement in the public or private education of their children also plays a big part in their children's success.

I can show you an example of a homeschooling success: just look at the username directly left of this post.

Background:
My mother has a bachelor's degree in computer science, and my father has a master's degree in electrical engineering.

My school history:
I was homeschooled throughout grade school and high school, except for 3rd grade when my mom was ill. In 6th or 7th grade my mom administered the Iowa Test of Basic Skills to evaluate my education. I scored in the 99th percentile. When I took the PSAT in high school I scored in the 91st percentile. When I took the ACT I scored a 30/36, placing me in the 97th percentile.

I attended Marquette University for my undergraduate degree and was awarded their largest merit-based general scholarship for four years. I studied electrical engineering, and was hired for multiple engineering internships while an undergraduate student. I joined two engineering honor societies which select their new members based on academic performance, Tau Beta Pi and Eta Kappa Nu. I graduated Magna Cum Laude with an overall GPA of 3.88/4.00 and an engineering GPA of 4.00/4.00. I was awarded a fully-funded research assistantship for a master's degree in electrical engineering from Marquette University, and I just began another part-time electrical engineering internship with Rockwell Automation.



My parents put the required effort into my education to ensure I was successful, and so far, it's worked!

[makattak]

I don't see why we have to stick with an industrial era, progressive liberal fascist gov't education system when the rest of the economy has moved into the 21st century.  

Interest group politics.

[Perd Hapley]

So if the masses are home schooling, how will there be any commonality of education between those millions of households?
Does every body use a dart board for curriculum choices, or secret decoder rings?

How do they choose curricula for private schools, under your proposed voucher system?

Why do make a connection between public schooling and standardized tests? Either one could exist without the other.

And I reiterate, 

[Jamisjockey]

Scores from the 2009 Programme for International Student Assessment to be released Tuesday show 15-year-old students in the U.S. performing about average in reading and science, and below average in math. Out of 34 countries, the U.S. ranked 14th in reading, 17th in science and 25th in math.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-12-07-us-students-international-ranking_N.htm

Yep.  Public education is doing a great job.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Are we at all differentiating between basic schooling and advanced college or tech prep?

My hesitent opinion on the subject is to limit public school (kids have to have something) to the old "eigth grade standard. Basic reading, writing, math, science and some history and perhaps language.

After reseaving that, it's up to the parents, child and local oppertunities.

My HS was basically supposed to be college prep and teaching us to pass standerdized test without actually preparing anyone for college.

I don't see why their shouldn't be a comprimise between what needs to be mandatory and what is optional.

[Perd Hapley]

K-12, Liz.

[red headed stranger]

My wife has taught in both public and private schools and put her kids in a private high school. She is of the opinion that the cost and selectiveness of private schools tend to select out for a better grade of parent and student and you consequently get better results, because the kids and parents are motivated.  If private schools had to accept and keep all comers, she thinks that most of them would end up not significantly different than the public schools.  She thinks that the socioeconomic status of the parents and their involvement with the kids is still the most important factor, regardless of the school setting.  

My wife's experience has been similar.  

Vouchers will lead to just as much waste and abuse as the public schools, except that the wasted of taxpayer money simply gets transferred to the public sector.  

I remember when school vouchers were on the Ballot in California when my wife was teaching at a private school. The principals and pastors in her school system salivated at the idea of a $2700 per-student voucher, as their plan was to simply raise the cost of tuition by $2700 a student.  

[BlueStarLizzard]

K-12, Liz.

Are we saying  can't count (cause I can) or that there can be no reasonable comprimise, axe it or keep it?

[Perd Hapley]

I'm saying that the poll question concerned K-12, pursuant to the discussion in another thread. I hadn't considered the 8th grade cutoff you suggest.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I'm saying that the poll question concerned K-12, pursuant to the discussion in another thread. I hadn't considered the 8th grade cutoff you suggest.

My vote stays because I don't see the other options as a workable alternative to what we already have.
 

Damned if we don't, damned if we do.