Author Topic: How might you have handled this robbery? (Read 10735 times)

Monkeyleg · « **on:** December 04, 2008, 12:06:47 AM »

As some of you know, my wife works for her sister's husband's company. One of her job duties was to show apartments to prospective tenants in a building the sister and husband own in a seedy part of town. I insisted that I go along with her because she will not carry a gun. Finally it sunk in, and they no longer ask her to do that.

Back on point. On Monday the husband was at the building shoveling the walk, which runs from the street to the rear of the building, about 100 feet.

A tenant had gone across the street to one of those check cashing places to cash a check to pay his rent. He didn't notice when he left that three gangstah types were following him. When he got midway toward the rear of the building, where my brother-in-law was, they made their presence known.

They didn't show any guns, but had either their fingers or gun barrels pointed from inside their coat pockets. They took the rent money, all of my BIL's credit cards, and his cell phone. He said that they looked young and seemed very nervous.

I've thought about how I might have reacted to this, but everything depends upon the situation. When I've gone to the building, my coat or vest has always been opened so that I could draw quickly.

My first thought would be to do nothing. However, one out of three robbery victims is beaten, stabbed or shot (FBI stats). So doing something would definitely be preferable.

I thought distracting them by throwing the credit cards on the ground in front of them might make them look down for a minute, giving time to draw and fire. If they didn't look down but instead demanded I pick them up, there might be a possibility of handing the cards to the best-positioned bad guy with my gun hand, pushing his gun hand to the side with my other hand, moving to use him as a barricade, and drawing and shooting at the other two, and then him.

I thought I'd post this here rather than on THR so as not to get the typical keyboard commando replies. So what's your opinion?

By the way, my brother in law isn't just in constant condition white, he's naive (born and raised in a farm town). He was surprised that detectives called to ask him questions. He said, "I didn't think they took stuff like this seriously."

He's also decided that he's not going to allow his tiny little bride go alone to the building anymore.

Standing Wolf · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2008, 12:26:34 AM »

Living as I do in non-Denver Colorado, I'd have drawn my gun from a coat pocket and opened fire.

Every time we give the looters a dime, all we do is encourage them to enlarge the scope and viciousness of their predations. Every time we stop the looters, we don't affect them at all, but do encourage the citizens to put our chins back up where they belong and act like Americans.

Monkeyleg · « **Reply #2 on:** December 04, 2008, 01:17:19 AM »

Quote

Living as I do in non-Denver Colorado, I'd have drawn my gun from a coat pocket and opened fire.

"Draw and fire" by itself isn't a strategy if the idea is to not be shot yourself. Remember, there were three bad guys, all with either hands or guns in their pockets pointed at my BIL.

Marvin Dao · « **Reply #3 on:** December 04, 2008, 01:46:25 AM »

If I were in that spot, I'd be respectful, give them the money, and pray they don't decide to shoot me. I'd avoid tossing the money onto the ground or do anything else that could be construed as a sign of disrespect since it's really in my best interests to keep them satisfied at the moment. In that situation, they've won the confrontation before I knew there was one. No point in agitating them and there are a whole lot less murders than there are holdups. If possible, I'd try to slowly reposition myself so that I'd have some quick cover/concealment if it came down to running and to minimize the number of thugs with a clear firing lane.

I'd rule out draw and shoot unless it was clear they were out for more than money or if they were forcing a change of location because the tactical situation sucks. They have the drop on me, outnumber me, and have their firearms at hand. I'm certainly not good or fast enough to tag all three of them before one of them tags me at conversational distances.

There's always the possibility that they may not be armed, but I wouldn't call their bluff unless it was obvious.

Ryan in Maine · « **Reply #4 on:** December 04, 2008, 01:47:41 AM »

Did he mention how the robbers were positioned around him?

Monkeyleg · « **Reply #5 on:** December 04, 2008, 01:53:25 AM »

No, Ryan. I haven't had the chance to talk to him about it, but that would be the first consideration. If they're encircling you, there's not much you can do.

I'd like to think I have more situational awareness than to let something like this happen to me, but I'm just curious if anyone has trained for or knows of a successful encounter of this type.

MicroBalrog · « **Reply #6 on:** December 04, 2008, 04:00:18 AM »

I am not a cop or a special operations soldier; nor do I play one on TV.

The manuals on self-defense that that the first thing to do when you have a gun pointed at you is to move/jump rapidly sideways, to get out of the line of fire. After that you engage your evasion or defensive option (fight or run, that is).

Vodka7 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 04, 2008, 04:49:17 AM »

A couple nervous bangers trying to shoot from the hip, who may not even have guns? I'd take my chances and draw and fire immediately. There have been too many people here getting killed, AFTER cooperating FULLY with a mugger/robber/home invader for me to ever risk putting myself at their mercy.

A few weeks back there was a shopkeeper in a borderline neighborhood who got robbed. They wore masks, tied him up, and dragged him in the back. He gave them the safe combo and all the money he had. He couldn't identify them and there were no cameras. They shot him dead anyway.

If I were living in a saner part of the country, maybe I'd consider doing what they asked and doing my best to speed things along. Not here, though. And after living here, maybe not anywhere else either.

vaskidmark · « **Reply #8 on:** December 04, 2008, 04:51:22 AM »

The first thing I would have done is consider how difficult life would be if I had to find a replacement for the current tenant. I am presuming from your description that the tenant, after cashing his check, walked to where your BIL was and intended to hand over the rent money - thus I am presuming that there were 2 victims to this robbery.

If replacing this tenant would not cause excessive heartburn (he does not pay on time, makes excessive complaints/requests for repair service, etc) then I might consider using him for cover if the opportunity presented itself for me to draw and shoot at the 3 robbers who are already pointing something that is making me fear death or great bodily injury.

If the tenant were one I would prefer to keep, I might go along with being robbed until things changed to abduction or there was talk of eliminating witnesses. If the 3 BGs wanted more than $$, credit cards, watches, etc then I might consider using the tenant as cover or at least as a distraction whilst I sought some way to either retreat (the "walk" your BIL was shoveling sounds like a pedestrian alley as opposed to a sidewalk next to a street) or assault through the ambush. My preference if I were physially able to run, would be to run away (50 feet to being able to turn the corner is what, 4 or 5 seconds tops?).

Now that the BIL has participated in a robbery, will he consider making sure in the future that he does not have more than (picking a figure out of thin air) 10 $1 bills, no credit cards, no watch, and a cheap prepaid cell phone with maybe $5 worth of time when he goes to that building or anywhere else that could be described as "seedy"? He has something to give the next robbers, but the total value is less than $20 out of pocket. He might consider that as being within budget when he compares it against what he lost this time.

And, to wrap this up - a burning question --

Did the BIL give the tenant a receipt for the rent money before the robbery went down? If not, and presuming the robbers got the rent $$ before it was handed to the BIL, will the BIL still be looking for the tenant to still pay?

stay safe.

skidmark

Regolith · « **Reply #9 on:** December 04, 2008, 05:05:51 AM »

First, I'd have landed a monkey-paw strike to the first guy's jaw while drawing my Glock For-tay and...Oh, no keyboard commando responses?

Damn.

Ok. Serious face on.

I'd have probably done what your BIL did. Mostly because I don't carry myself, and hence I'd have been screwed. I do carry a knife (a Spyderco Native), but it is definitely not the best SD tool, and is really only a method of last resort (i.e. if I'm going to go down, I might as well go down fighting).

That being said, I do try and minimize the risk that I'd ever been in that situation in the first place. I don't go to the seedy side of town (if this town even has one) or frequent places of possible ill repute, and I generally try and keep myself from becoming a target.

Even if I was carrying, I'd have probably ended up at least giving up my wallet. It could either serve as a distraction or - if that is really all they are after - end the confrontation, depending on the situation and the reaction of the muggers. I don't carry cash and my cards are easily canceled. I'd prefer not to end up shooting someone over my wallet, but I'd also prefer not to end up dead.

Really, it's damn hard to say without being in that situation.

PTK · « **Reply #10 on:** December 04, 2008, 06:24:26 AM »

Quote

Living as I do in non-Denver Colorado, I'd have drawn my gun from a coat pocket and opened fire.

This exactly, except I'd have reached for my "wallet" and fired the SP101 through the coat pocket.

Uncle Bubba · « **Reply #11 on:** December 04, 2008, 08:50:34 AM »

Rather than throw the cards on the ground, and taking into consideration other factors already mentioned like position, flipping the cards at them would almost certainly cause them to at least flinch and possibly turn partly away, giving you time to draw and fire.

MechAg94 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 04, 2008, 01:52:40 PM »

IMO, the best way out of this one is to recognize that they were following the other guy over. Then a quickly and visibly checking to see that your carry gun is loaded would probably cause them to turn away. That is assuming you are still on your own property. Backing away at the same time would be appropriate.

BlueStarLizzard · « **Reply #13 on:** December 04, 2008, 02:01:05 PM »

i would shoot. for a few reasons.

i live from paycheck to paycheck and losing my money has the potetial to really put me in a rotten place.
i would presume that the robbers might search me and then steal my sidearm, which means if they were fakeing the gun in the first place they would now have a real gun for future robberys.
resistance and outright injury might make them think twice about repeating their crime with some less able to defend themselves (and no, this does not mean i am takeing the law into my own hands, it means i hope in the act of defending myself i may have saved someone in the future as well as myself)
and finally, an issue most of you guys don't have. i am not going to put myself at the mercy of three men intent on violence. if they kill me, they kill me. but if they rape me i would have to live with that the rest of my life.

of course, i hope i had enough awarness of my surrondings not to be in that position in the first place.

grampster · « **Reply #14 on:** December 04, 2008, 02:24:53 PM »

"I'd like to think I have more situational awareness than to let something like this happen to me,..." (Monkeyleg)

There you go, Dick. That's exactly what I was thinking, and then I read your post.

There are times when one is just more prepared.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #15 on:** December 04, 2008, 02:41:04 PM »

i've been caught out it was embarassing once the fear and adrenalin passed. lived for years in ne se and anacostia never got robbed ran a few times. i got robbed by two teens about a quarter mile from sibley hospital on the side of macarthur blvd. at 9 pm with traffic going by

Monkeyleg · « **Reply #16 on:** December 04, 2008, 02:45:53 PM »

vaskidmark, using the tenant for cover? That's cold, man.

I misunderstood the situation with the tenant. He went to the check cashing place but forgot his ID. He was going back to his apartment to get ID when the gangstahs caught up with him. So all they got from him was a check that, if they try to cash it, will get them caught. Same thing with the cell phone.

While my BIL isn't really street-smart, I'm sure that he had his back turned when the gangstahs were approaching. Otherwise I'm sure he'd have known something was wrong. I'll have to check on that. If I'd seen three black guys in hoods, I'd take cover and have my hand on my gun.

"i live from paycheck to paycheck and losing my money has the potetial to really put me in a rotten place."

A wrongful death civil lawsuit can run $50K to defend, which can really put someone in a rotten place. That's why CCW instructors stress that shooting is the last resort.

Regolith, every time my BIL goes to that building he's putting himself in a potentially dangerous situation. His plumbing/HVAC business is doing well. I've suggested to him many times that he sell the building rather than expose himself, his wife and my wife (and me) to harm.

Yesterday he was talking with some of his guys about the experience, and one of them joked that they should all go down to the building and watch for the gangstahs. My BIL looked at my wife and joked, "yeah, and we could have Dick come along." He knows I carry 24/7.

Nick1911 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 04, 2008, 02:58:17 PM »

Quote from: Monkeyleg on December 04, 2008, 02:45:53 PM

Yesterday he was talking with some of his guys about the experience, and one of them joked that they should all go down to the building and watch for the gangstahs. My BIL looked at my wife and joked, "yeah, and we could have Dick come along." He knows I carry 24/7.

That burns me up. Like it's your responsibility to look out for his safety?! A-hole.

I realize he was joking, but it's not a joke buddy...

Balog · « **Reply #18 on:** December 04, 2008, 03:03:56 PM »

I consider resisting crime a moral obligation, so I'd have resisted if at all possible. When I carry my pistol it is about where a wallet would be, so hopefully I'd have it in hand before they realized I was not complying. After that it would depend on positioning etc.

Another thing to consider; they take your wallet, they have your address. They take your keys, they have access to your house. Even if you change the locks on the house, are you going to spend the $$ to have your car's doors trunk and ignition rekeyed too? And God help you if you have pics of your attractive wife or receipts from a gun store.

roo_ster · « **Reply #19 on:** December 04, 2008, 03:17:33 PM »

A buddy of mine inherited a trailer park in a rough neighborhood.

He will only take cash when he is in his office and has cash in hand only when in the office or going from office to vehicle, intending to go immediately to the bank.

His office is pretty secure and good for situational awareness.

When he walks about the property, he always carries a firearm. No exceptions.

He has a maintenance man for tasks such as lawn mowing, snow shoveling.

That said, I think the primary problem here is situational awareness. BIL was focused on his physical task in a dangerous area. There is no remedy for having folks get right up on you.

Most Likely
I likely would have handed over what was in my pockets, were I working on my property in a bad neighborhood:
DL
Keys (Kot entire set, just the those to the office.)
Misc stuff, hanky, etc.
Chump cash, no more than $10.
But not my firearm. If that comes out, it gets used. Like Balog, my firearm is where most folks keep their wallet.

Fear for Life
If I feared that they might kill me despite handing over stuff, I would respond with force.

I have a snow shovel in hand, right? That would be used first to hurt an assailant, then draw weapon and go to town.

Open Carry
Is this an option for your BIL? Being on his own property, it ought to be legal.

I suspect that open carry might dissuade potential goblins.

K Frame · « **Reply #20 on:** December 04, 2008, 03:56:28 PM »

"My BIL looked at my wife and joked, "yeah, and we could have Dick come along.""

My response to that would be along the lines of "If you're not intelligent enough to recognize the wake up call that you just got, then that's your problem, not mine.

Balog · « **Reply #21 on:** December 04, 2008, 04:00:13 PM »

Quote from: Mike Irwin on December 04, 2008, 03:56:28 PM

"My BIL looked at my wife and joked, "yeah, and we could have Dick come along.""

My response to that would be along the lines of "If you're not intelligent enough to recognize the wake up call that you just got, then that's your problem, not mine.

"If you're too lazy/stupid/cowardly to take responsibility for your own well-being I'd be damned if I'd risk myself to defend you."

BlueStarLizzard · « **Reply #22 on:** December 04, 2008, 04:04:40 PM »

Quote from: Monkeyleg on December 04, 2008, 02:45:53 PM

"i live from paycheck to paycheck and losing my money has the potetial to really put me in a rotten place."

A wrongful death civil lawsuit can run $50K to defend, which can really put someone in a rotten place. That's why CCW instructors stress that shooting is the last resort.

first of all, for me (and i apologies for any confusion) 'too shoot' involves a bit more then just pulling a trigger. i assumed that was a given, considering i was talking to others who are serious about personal saftey.

second, notice the multiple reasons. thats just the first.

Tallpine · « **Reply #23 on:** December 04, 2008, 05:59:51 PM »

Quote

if they rape me i would have to live with that the rest of my life

Unless they rape you and then kill you

I think the only thing that can save you is paranoia - realizing that there really are people out to get you, and living each day and minute accordingly.

charby · « **Reply #24 on:** December 04, 2008, 06:07:07 PM »

If it happened to me, I would have handed over my wallet, car keys, cell phone or whatever they wanted. They just want a quick buck and not my life. All that can be replaced. Now if their intent was to harm me, that would be a different outcome.

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Author Topic: How might you have handled this robbery? (Read 10735 times)