Author Topic: The Housing Market Thing  (Read 10816 times)

Art Eatman

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The Housing Market Thing
« on: March 27, 2007, 07:18:25 AM »
From this morning's "Daily Pfennig":

Friday's rally of the US$ due to a turn around by the housing market was short lived as new home sales, as reported Monday morning, fell dramatically in February.  Sales of new homes dropped to the lowest level seen in nearly seven years, while inventories of unsold homes rose to a 16-year high.  These number bear repeating:  Sales of new homes are the lowest in seven years, and inventories of unsold homes are at a 16 year high!  Some economists blamed bad weather for the drop in home sales, but how can you blame weather for a surplus in unsold new homes which represents an 8 month supply? 
>
> I have a somewhat unique perspective on this problem, as I ran a family business selling manufactured housing.  After leaving the remnants of Mark Twain Bank and while waiting for Frank and Chuck to get EverBank WorldMarkets started again, I ran Coachman Homes; a manufactured housing business started by my father in 1968.  The manufactured housing business peaked in 1998 and 1999 when lenders were flush with 'Wall Street' cash and were willing to put just about anybody into a manufactured home.  The party came crashing down in late 1999 and 2000 as a couple of the major lenders started to have problems with foreclosures (Greentree Financial, Security Pacific) and therefore began to tighten lending standards.  The manufacturers were slow to realize this was not just a temporary slowdown and kept building homes as quickly as they could get them produced.  We soon had a glut of home inventories, and the lenders wouldn't approve as many buyers; so naturally the prices of homes started to come down.  This caused several new homeowners to suddenly become upside down in their home loans (they actually owed more than the home was worth) and so they just decided to 'walk away' from the homes and 'give them back to the lenders'.  Suddenly, the new home retailers were competing with bank foreclosures chasing after a decreasing number of approved buyers.  Needless to say, the industry has taken several years to work out of this down turn and is still struggling to turn a corner even after some help from mother nature (Hurricane Katrina was a godsend to the manufactured housing industry). 
>
> I use this as an example of why I don't believe we will see the full effect of the housing down turn for some time.  Yes, builders are now scrambling to offer incentives to buyers of their 'spec' homes.  But what about all of the homes which are going to start hitting the market due to foreclosures?  US foreclosure filings last month jumped 12 percent compared with a year ago.  More than 130,000 homes entered foreclosure last month according to RealtyTrac,  which is the second highest reading since they started keeping records in January 2005.  Adding to the mortgage problems, there will be a massive amount of adjustable rate mortgage resets coming in the next few years.  More than $2.28 trillion worth of ARMs were originated in 2004, 2005, and 2006, at the peak of the housing boom.  Many of these ARMs enticed buyers with very low 'teaser rates' which will significantly change the amount of the monthly mortgage payment when they reset.  Now that these homes are no longer increasing in value and lenders are tightening credit standards, look for foreclosures to skyrocket. 
>
> Our friend, John Mauldin, did a great job explaining this problem in his weekly newsletter "Thoughts from the Frontline":  "A drop of 20% in the number of homebuyers that we have seen in the past two years, coupled with a dramatic increase in the number of foreclosures, is going to put serious pressure on housing prices, especially in markets where there was a lot of "froth."  And combine that with increased down payments and tighter credit for even credit-worthy buyers, and there is real room for concern."
>
> John goes on to explain how the housing slowdown will likely spill over into consumer confidence numbers which will start dropping in the coming months.  According to John, housing related construction employment will seriously plummet and consumer spending is going to take a hit as cash-out Mortgage Equity withdrawals are going to be increasingly hard to get.  Such mortgages accounted for 2-3% of GDP growth per year for the past four years.
>
> So what will this mean for the US$?  Well we will definitely be seeing a dramatic slowdown in the economy and possibly a reduction in interest rates by year end.  Not good news for the US$ which has been seeing some strength from thoughts that the FOMC would actually have to raise rates sometime in 2007 to combat inflation.  Lower rates and a slower economy will help to force a sell off in US treasuries by foreign investors..."

These final two paragraphs illustrate quite how "everything is connected to everything else" in economics as well as in environmentalism.

Art
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wmenorr67

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2007, 07:45:01 AM »
But doesn't the housing market run in cycles just as everything else?  Can this not be chalked up to a natural reset of the market?
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Sindawe

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2007, 07:54:21 AM »
It could, but I think some things are different this time around (not that I'm an expert in this subject).  Way too many people have bought more house than they need or could afford on interest only loans, or have refinanced and taken all the equity + more out of their homes in the expectation that prices will continue to climb forever.  As noted in the OP, builders kept building even when sales declined and it continues, at least here my area of Colorado.  Sales are slow here as well.  My neighbor has had his unit on and off the market for 18 months now, and fortunately for him he currently has a renters to make his mortgage payments.

Reminds me of what I learned about the boom in the stock market in the early decades of the 20th century.  And we all know where THAT lead....
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280plus

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2007, 07:57:14 AM »
Quote
housing related construction employment will seriously plummet
I can vouch for this, it already has...

Anybody want to hire a slightly used and somewhat abused old HVAC mechanic?  grin
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The Rabbi

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2007, 08:41:36 AM »
But doesn't the housing market run in cycles just as everything else?  Can this not be chalked up to a natural reset of the market?

Yes and no.
In this case the housing market was goosed to the max by an over-accomodative Fed worried about Y2K and then a recession.
The world is awash in dollars.  There is money worldwide looking for yield, and mortgages offer(ed) tempting yields, especially the junky kind.  Companies would borrow money in Japan at close to zero interest rate, convert to dollars, and buy MBSs and collect the interest.  A no brainer.  At least until the securities began defaulting and the yen rose against the dollar, making repayment more expensive.
But in the meantime, every Tom Dick and Shloimy was getting qualified to buy a house he couldnt afford and probably wouldnt pay for.  So the cheap money was creating artificial demand, stimulating building,etc.  This has been going on for probably 7 years.
Now the party's over.  And the rule is: the larger the bubble, the bigger the pop.  It will be some time before all the unsold inventory of homes is worked through the system.  And with lenders in mortal fear, lending standards will tighten like the CEO's sphincter, cutting out new buyers.
I'd give it 18 months or so.  Watch for stories in your local papers about former real estate whiz kid who lost all and is now pursuing his dream of [fill in the blank].
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Brad Johnson

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2007, 10:34:23 AM »
Funny, everyone in the media is talking about how "bad" the housing market is, yet ERA, Coldwell Banker, and Century 21 (all Cendant companies) just came off another record-setting year.

Brad
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Manedwolf

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2007, 10:41:44 AM »
The get-rich-quick "flippers" that helped drive the market up beyond what people could afford for actual homes to live in can go to hell.

Brad Johnson

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2007, 10:51:31 AM »
The get-rich-quick "flippers" that helped drive the market up beyond what people could afford for actual homes to live in can go to hell.

The market is the market - it won't go any higher than buyers will pay, or lenders will loan.  The flippers didn't create a market increase, they simply took advantage of a market opportunity.

As for homes being higher than people can afford, no.  That's a false concept based on our ingrained (and potentially disastrous) "consumerism" mentality.  The problem isn't homes that are "too high", it's people who think they have to have more home than they can pay for.  They will mortgage themselves to the eyeballs to get into the "house they can afford" then blame everyone else for their financial troubles.  A house is a house and a price is a price.  Whether or not it is "too high" is totally dependent on the buyer's willingness to be financially honest with themselves.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
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Manedwolf

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2007, 11:10:52 AM »
The get-rich-quick "flippers" that helped drive the market up beyond what people could afford for actual homes to live in can go to hell.

The market is the market - it won't go any higher than buyers will pay, or lenders will loan.  The flippers didn't create a market increase, they simply took advantage of a market opportunity.

As for homes being higher than people can afford, no.  That's a false concept based on our ingrained (and potentially disastrous) "consumerism" mentality.  The problem isn't homes that are "too high", it's people who think they have to have more home than they can pay for.  They will mortgage themselves to the eyeballs to get into the "house they can afford" then blame everyone else for their financial troubles.  A house is a house and a price is a price.  Whether or not it is "too high" is totally dependent on the buyer's willingness to be financially honest with themselves.

Brad

And in this area, a tiny "starter house" of about 1200 sq feet or less is $300k. Anything less than that gets you a "needs work" shack in an area that may include crack dealers.

The disparity between middle class income and housing meant for the "middle class" is extremely wide.

The Rabbi

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2007, 11:14:59 AM »
Funny, everyone in the media is talking about how "bad" the housing market is, yet ERA, Coldwell Banker, and Century 21 (all Cendant companies) just came off another record-setting year.

Brad

Note to self: short Realogy tomorrow at open (symbol H).
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Brad Johnson

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2007, 11:19:32 AM »

Quote
Note to self: short Realogy tomorrow at open (symbol H).

Not following you - way over my head, man.

Brad
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"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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charby

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2007, 11:22:45 AM »



And in this area, a tiny "starter house" of about 1200 sq feet or less is $300k. Anything less than that gets you a "needs work" shack in an area that may include crack dealers.

The disparity between middle class income and housing meant for the "middle class" is extremely wide.

That I can agree with, the average household income where I live is 50-60k average decent home is $200k. Anything below $135k is going to need at least $40-50k worth of work or is so small you'd go nuts by yourself in it.

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charby

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2007, 11:23:57 AM »

Quote
Note to self: short Realogy tomorrow at open (symbol H).

Not following you - way over my head, man.

Brad

I think he is talking about dumping stock in Realty Companies that he owns shares of.



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Sindawe

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2007, 11:28:09 AM »
Quote
And in this area, a tiny "starter house" of about 1200 sq feet or less is $300k. Anything less than that gets you a "needs work" shack in an area that may include crack dealers.

The disparity between middle class income and housing meant for the "middle class" is extremely wide.
Same here. Townhouse style condo's, people are asking for $182k for a two bedroom two or 1.5 bath units.  Detached single family homes (ie tract housing) are running in the $350k.  Further east, the house my parent bought for $39,500 in 1977 is also in the $300k range. For a two bedroom, one bath ranch built in the early 1960s.

I could not afford to buy my home now, given those prices.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2007, 11:38:35 AM »

Quote
Note to self: short Realogy tomorrow at open (symbol H).

Not following you - way over my head, man.

Brad

I think he is talking about dumping stock in Realty Companies that he owns shares of.


ahhhh... gotcha.  I don't play the market so I'm not up to speed on share-speak.

Brad
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The Rabbi

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2007, 11:49:47 AM »

Quote
Note to self: short Realogy tomorrow at open (symbol H).

Not following you - way over my head, man.

Brad

I think he is talking about dumping stock in Realty Companies that he owns shares of.





Close.  Realogy is one of the succesor companies to Cendant and owns Century 21, Coldwell Banker etc etc.  All the names in the real estate industry.  Stock is close to its 52 week high.  Company has high debt levels.  I would expect with the housing market slowing, dramatically in some cases, their revenue will fall off significantly, making it harder to make debt payments.  Stock price should suffer.  I sell short and when the price drops I buy it back and pocket the difference.
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Art Eatman

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2007, 12:12:02 PM »
Another article I read commented that the average time from house-price peak to the end of a slump is some 46 months.  Average.  Houses peaked in mid-2005.  So, around the spring of 2009 before the bottom.  Again, average.  If this is more of a real bust than a slump, add a year or five, quien sabe?

Remember that in the past, personal indebtedness was relatively low; savings rates were higher.  Right now, the credit card debt averages some $9,000 per household.  Multiply that by around 125 million households or more.  Then look around at how many folks you know with essentially no personal debt beyond, say, the house and the car.  Somebody's in deep doo-doo.  Many somebodies.

Then look back at those final two paragraphs of the cite in my first post.  Add in the rising commodity costs (rising in all currencies) and the ensuing costs of just about everything from reloading components to refrigerators.

And I've seen nothing to indicate that wages are anywhere near keeping up.

Interesting times...

Art
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Brad Johnson

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2007, 12:18:28 PM »
Should have picked up on the 'Realogy'.  Sorry, my brain is in a different gear today.

Yep, as of last year Cendant, Realogy, and Wyndham became three completely seperate entities when shares of Realogy and Wyndham were exchanged from shares of Cendant common stock.  Realogy is the real estate end (real estate brokerage, franchises, and mortgage services), Wyndham is the hospitality end (hotels, resorts, and timeshares).

Brad
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Brad Johnson

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2007, 12:37:24 PM »
Quote
And I've seen nothing to indicate that wages are anywhere near keeping up.

Yep.

My feeling is that a lot of other people see it the same way and that's what drove the variable-rate fiasco that's imploding the sub-prime industry as we speak.  People didn't feel their incomes were keeping up but they still wanted more, so they used the most convenient means at hand to get it - variable rate mortgages with an escrow opt-out.  Not thinking about the consequences (and, quite honestly, usually not the kind of folks who thought past their nose anyway) they got themselves into a bind when the rates jacked up or something went haywire with their income - new kid, loss of a job, just plain overextended, etc.

A little perspective though... The money hasn't gone anywhere, it's just tied up in property or not being spent.  As with the Great Depression, the amount of money in the economy didn't change.  It was people's spending habits that took a radical turn.  They stopped.  And when people stop spending, things stop being bought, which means companies that make things make fewer or none at all, and the companies slow down, and employement slows down, and capital improvements slow down, and...  well, you get the picture.

Our economy is based on one thing and one thing only - our belief that it's working.  That's it.  It works because we believe it's working.  When we are optimistic we tend to spend and borrow more, and the economy is stronger.  The inverse is true when pessimism sets in.

Also, a lot of people put great import on how much credit card debt a household has - equating that to general stability - but we never hear about overall debt or net equity, which are much more indicative.  Sure, a house may have $9000 in credit card debt but have no other debt obligations.  On the other hand, I know a lot of people who take great pains to keep their credit cards paid off but have six, or even seven, figures in other "stuff" that they are making payments on without blinking an eye.  Houses, boats, bikes, lake cabins, TVs, furniture, you name it.  They have no credit card debt but are in hock up to their eyeballs with everything else they financed to support their lifestyle.

Also, as the new housing starts slow (fewer new owners) the occupancy rates for rentals tend to rise from the people who are renting instead of buying.  This means people buying rental property, which are traditionally some type of existing home.  It won't show up on the radar as a housing start but it is a housing transaction.  It's just not as sexy on the news as "new home sales" so you rarely see it.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2007, 01:11:56 PM »
Similar to global temperature averages, it is not real helpful to look at average nationwide data.  There are regions that were super-heated and are looking at problems and others that are bubbling along quite well.  Control for region and market and the picture for most of the country is not as scary as the averages might indicate.

The sub-primes and exotics are tightening up, loans I could do last week I cannot do today.  I'm finding that due to the large number of people who actually bought or refi'd in the past few years the level of education among buyers and sellers is increasing as well. 

Looking at a good year for purchases and refi's, fixed rates are historically low so folks facing adjustment are not necessarily facing an impossible escape from their ARMs. 

As Brad pointed out, the investment market was less attractive the past few years as anyone marginally qualified could buy a SFR or condo, reducing the pool of good renters for higher rent properties.  That seems to be settling and hopefully reducing, which is good news for landlords like me.
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Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2007, 01:16:20 PM »
Brings back memories.

I worked in the family real estate business for several years in the 80's. Like selling syphillis to whores.

I did make a decent living chasing trailer houses and wobbly boxes  (manufactured housing, excuse me) doing pre-repo inspections for Greentree, et al, as a side job.  Gave me quite a perspective of life out there...or what passes for a life.

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Desertdog

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2007, 03:04:51 PM »
I built my home in 79 for $52K, moved in in 80 and a few years later many homes in this area lost 50% or more in value.  You could buy a very good 2000+ sq. ft. home for less than $40K.

My payments was affordable so I just stayed where I was.  Prices are back up, constructions is booming and my house is now VERY affordable.

If you are struggling with your payments, if you can hang in there, don't do anything rash and things will straighten out.




Lee

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2007, 04:24:54 PM »
Talk about strange timing...just as I started to read this, my wife was gasping about a house down the street from us that just sold. It was on the market for over a year - started at 382K - sold for 286K.  We looked at the house prior to buying ours. It is a nice house -new paint, updates, 3000 sq feet- not a fixer-upper -backs to woods.  Ouch!   

RJMcElwain

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2007, 05:32:06 PM »
There's a saying on Wall Street, "When you start getting buy-recommendations from cab drivers and grocery clerks, it's time to get out of the market".

I think the corollary for real estate is, "When there's a TV program called "Flip This House" it's time to get out of real estate.

Bob
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CAnnoneer

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Re: The Housing Market Thing
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2007, 07:26:27 PM »
Sorry but I got no pity for the morons that mortgage themselves to death. They drive demand and therefore the pricing up to insane levels and thus make it far harder for responsible borrowers to afford their own house. Housing is not a luxury but a necessity, so when a group of idiots make it less accessible to everyone else, then I say, let them burn in the hell of their own making. I look forward to the inevitable major crash, when the smart and responsible can step in and get good houses at significantly lowered prices.