Author Topic: As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60  (Read 3896 times)

Guest

  • Guest
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« on: May 27, 2006, 11:56:43 AM »
OK, I closed a thread on THR with the promise that I would personally repost it here.  So, predictions for tonight?

I gotta go with Hughes.  Matt Hughes is simply a monster.  He's the local boy made good around here, famous for hailing from Hillsboro, IL but more for staying in Hillsboro after becoming world champion.

Royce is a defensive grappler, and a great one, but Hughes specializes in slamming defensive grapplers, taking top, and beating them to a TKO or submission.  People will call him boring, but the fact is that Royce's only proven strategy is to clamp on guard and wait for a mistake, while Hughes has proven over and over that he can win from within guard without even attempting to pass it.

Royce can't stop Hughes' takedowns, and there's no way he'll be taking Hughes down.  The only grapplers who've given Hughes real trouble have been very fast, very aggressive offensive guys like B.J. Penn and Carlos Newton.  I'm not sure Royce could play that way even if he wanted to do so.

Vodka7

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,067
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2006, 04:51:33 PM »
I've got my money on Hughes, Silva, Riggs, Sanchez, Guillard, Lister, and Gonzaga.  For the other two, Horn and Fisher.

It's not that exciting of a card, but I hope for a real war out of Swick/Riggs and maybe Vera/Silva, but I really don't understand the Vera hype, or why he's the favorite at -219 now.  Maybe the people setting up the line or all the money have only ever seen TUF.


Added: Just checked the play by play, looks like I picked four out of four so far

Vodka7

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,067
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2006, 08:43:22 PM »
Great, great show.  Happiest I've been with a UFC card in a while, even if I only made $5.50 on bets, and lost well more than that when you factor in beer and the PPV itself Smiley

Watching Sanchez ride Alessio for two minutes and trying to explain why Sanchez was going to win 30-27 or 29-28 to my friends who have no idea how to score a fight was the most enjoyable MMA experience I've had in a while.

Ron

  • Guest
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2006, 09:00:45 PM »
What was Gracie doing giving Hughes his back not once but twice?

I've seen others not afraid of doing it but it rarely bodes well for the one doing it.

Ground and pound baby!

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2006, 04:23:05 AM »
I was verboten from watching....fill me in!
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Guest

  • Guest
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2006, 07:59:02 AM »
I didn't get to watch, either.  It sounded from the descriptions I've read as if Hughes had a tight armbar and Royce just refused to tap.  Shades of Helio and Kimura!  I didn't really expect Royce to hang with Hughes, but he's got a huge heart.

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,798
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2006, 08:15:55 AM »
Did the title remind anyone else of Fullmetal Alchemist?
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

Chuck Dye

  • Guest
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2006, 08:33:51 AM »
This thread is proceeding in a language I do not speak.  Is this in celebration of brain damage aka boxing, or in celebration of brain damage aka pro "wrestling," or am I not even guessing near the mark?

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2006, 09:30:54 AM »
Quote from: Huck Phinn
This thread is proceeding in a language I do not speak.  Is this in celebration of brain damage aka boxing, or in celebration of brain damage aka pro "wrestling," or am I not even guessing near the mark?
UFC, or Ultimate fighting, is no-holds barred fighting (okay, some things are verboten, but not much).  Its real world skills, as opposed to boxing.  Its real blood and "moves", as opposed to pro "wrastlin".
However, I don't know why I'm even bothering to explain.  Your "brain damage" remarks tell me that you've already formed an opinion of what you "think" of the sport.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Ron

  • Guest
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2006, 09:52:04 AM »
Quote
This thread is proceeding in a language I do not speak.
It is the US version of mixed marshal arts competition.

The fighters cross train in various fighting styles. Jujitsu, Muay Thai Kick boxing, Greco Roman and Olympic style wrestling, American Boxing etc...

There is also Pride Fighting on pay per view that is similar but based in Asia.

Stand_watie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,925
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2006, 05:41:17 PM »
Quote from: Huck Phinn
This thread is proceeding in a language I do not speak.  Is this in celebration of brain damage aka boxing, or in celebration of brain damage aka pro "wrestling," or am I not even guessing near the mark?
Brain damage in (modern) pro-boxing is real. It comes from putting thick enough gloves on the hands of the participants that they can strike each other hard enough to cause brain damage without breaking the bones in their hands. Old time bare-knuckle boxers didn't have that problem. It was bloodier, but less damaging in the long run.

Brain damge in pro-wrestling is fake. All the huffing and puffing is simply a marketing tool aimed at adolecent boys.

UFC and other mixed martial arts competions are neither. Sometimes there is plenty of blood, but there are rarely serious injuries other than broken hands and hyper-extended joints.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

Vodka7

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,067
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2006, 09:21:26 PM »
Pride events are really amazing, and for a first time viewer I would recommend them over the UFC for several reasons: better cards, better fighters, better entrances, more interesting rules, and much, much better announcers.

Plus, they're cheaper.

The only downside is they don't have the little mainstream hype that the UFC does, so as a first time viewer you're not really going to know who's who; but I really don't think there's a better introduction to the sport than a Bushido (cheap) event or the Open Weight Grand Prix.

Guest

  • Guest
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2006, 05:45:46 AM »
MMA is actually a lot safer than boxing for participants.  Someone has already mentioned that the gloves are small and light, without much padding.  This means that a striker's hands are not protected the way a boxer's hands are; if he throws the number and kind of punches a boxer would throw, especially to the head, he'll probably break a hand before managing it.

The addition of grappling makes a huge difference as well.  In boxing, if you're being overwhelmed, you can clinch, but that only breaks things up for a moment.  When the clinch is broken, you're still standing with the guy who was overwhelming you a moment ago.  In MMA, if you're getting too much punishment, you have the option of clinching and fighting from the clinch.  You also have the option of taking your opponent down (if you can) and fighting from the ground.  

This leads to another feature of MMA, the length of striking combinations.  Boxers throw long chains of combinations when they can, and the rules of boxing allow them to do so.  This leads to boxers taking lots of impact to the skull, which leads to brain damage.  In most MMA matches, even a boxer of great skill can't do that because it opens him to a takedown.  MMA strikers tend to throw short one-two combinations most of the time, with longer unanswered combinations only possible when the opponent is already tired and close to quitting anyway.

And that brings me to the final "safety feature" of MMA--submissions.  Pro boxing doesn't really admit that submission is an option anymore.  A boxer is considered less of a man if he submits.  You never see boxers simply step back and say "I'm getting hurt too bad here."  It's pretty rare even to see a boxer not answer the bell.  As long as a pro boxer can stand, he's expected to go out gamely and put his hands up even if he's only going to get pounded more.

MMA is submission fighting.  The rules allow for many submission holds, and that changes the whole attitude of the game.  Take the armbar, for example.  When you're in a straight armbar, you're flat on your back.  Your opponent is flat on his back perpendicular to you, with your arm between his legs.  He has both hands on your wrist pulling your arm straight up to his chin, and his legs are over your chest.  Done right, there is no way you can escape and he can break your arm in two whenever he chooses.  In submission fighting, this is your cue to "tap out" by tapping your hand rapidly on him or the mat.  

When you tap out, the fight is over.  The ref steps in, the opponent releases your arm, and it's done.  

TKO's are similar in MMA:  because your opponent in MMA has usually set himself up in a dominant position (because grappling is allowed, he can control your position if he's able) once he starts hitting telling blows that aren't getting answered, the referee steps in and stops the fight.  Refs take some heat for stopping when the opponent thought he could continue, but the competitors are safe.  

You can see guys like Randy Couture who've been doing MMA for ten years and not only aren't punch-drunk but can even still be competitive.  Kimo Leopoldo still fights MMA, and he was in the second UFC!  No dain bramage there.

Boxing is more popular for now, but as Americans figure out how grappling (real grappling) works, and as boxing continues to slide into obscurity, I predict MMA will change places with it.

This is assuming that the UFC and some of the up-and-coming leagues don't turn into pro wrestling.

Chuck Dye

  • Guest
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2006, 06:57:50 AM »
Thank you GoRon, Stand_watie, and Don Gwinn for your answers.

Thank you JamisJockey for rising to the bait. Cheesy

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2006, 10:04:40 AM »
I watched them sing the praises of Royce Gracie and his Brazilian Ju-Jitsu the other night, showing flashbacks to previous wins where he took down opponents up to 31 pounds heavier than him. The earlier footage of Gracie showed him on using elbow punches to the back of head and neck area, and one match where it appeared he had his bigger Illinois opponent in a choke hold, blacking him out.  

Are those legal moves, where one can actually throttle a person's blood flow to the brain?
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

Guest

  • Guest
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2006, 11:17:11 AM »
Yup.  Chokes are legal.  Royce was known for the RNC (rear naked choke.)  Again, you almost never see anyone actually put to sleep in MMA competition because the competitors train for these chokes and joint locks and most have been in them many times before.  They know when the choke is sunk and they can't escape, so they tap, the opponent releases the choke, and it's all over.  

Now, you have to understand that Royce's UFC career up till now consisted of only the first four UFC events, and at that time, the UFC was very different.  It was originally held in 1993 in large part at the behest of the Gracie family, led by Royce's brother Rorion.  At that time, it was billed as style vs. style.  The question was whether a wrestler could stop a TKD black belt (that's laughable today, but it was a big question then) or whether a boxer could beat a jiu-jitsu specialist.  Most of the competitors had never cross-trained.  

Royce absolutely dominated those opponents regardless of size, but you have to remember that most of them were not top-flight competition (there were bar owners, firefighters, and others in the original UFC's.)  
Of the ones who were elite in their own disciplines, none had fought Vale Tudo (Brazilian "no holds barred") before and none had fought a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu stylist before.  The first two UFC events are out on DVD now and I highly recommend them especially if you've never seen them before.   The American crowd boos and jeers every time the fights go to the ground, and Ken Shamrock was booed all the way out of the octagon, throughout his interview and all the way up the aisle after he beat a kickboxer with a heel hook (Submission applied on the ground--no blood, no knockout.)  At UFC II, Rorion brought his father, Helio, out and gave him an award for lifetime achievement.  Helio Gracie helped originate Vale Tudo in Brazil and helped keep effective martial arts from dying out by dominating vale tudo for years against much larger opponents.  The American audience, who had just paid money to watch a Vale Tudo tournament mind you, booed this old man roundly.  
They just didn't get it.

Anyway, when the UFC began, the only things you couldn't do were biting and fish-hooking.  I believe even eye gouges were legal then.  Pulling hair, groin and throat strikes, small joint manipulations (like twisting fingers) were all legal then.  What they found, however, was that these kinds of attacks didn't make much difference in the final outcome of a fight.  When someone has positional dominance, it doesn't help much to bite him or try to gouge his eyes.  When he's in mount, you're not going to be able to damage his eyes or his throat regardless.  You might be able to break a finger, but he has the ability to break your arm or leg while you're trying to do it.  

UFC underwent some changes later as more and more wrestlers and other grapplers poured in.  Then people got better and better at learning from other arts, and strikers started to catch up.  Around that time, John McCain watched, in his words, "part of one of these matches" and decided it was too brutal compared to his beloved boxing.  He led a crusade to get the UFC barred from television.  This was partly the fault of the original UFC management, which had really played up the "bloodsport" fantasies of some viewers.  Truth was that despite a few moments of real brutality, there was nothing in the UFC worse than what goes on in the NFL every single year, even then.  But it still looked like the UFC was going under.


Nowadays it's a whole different show.  MMA is a genuine sport now, if a fledgling one.  The original UFC event had no time limit, no rounds, and no way for the referee to stop a fight.  You had to win by knockout, submission, or a thrown towel.  

Nowadays the UFC disallows a lot of the "dirty tricks" such as the kidney kicks Royce used to use in guard, kicking a downed opponent, groin shots, small joint manipulation, head butts, etc.  These are seen as attacks that don't play a very important role in the match but cause a disproportionate amount of injury to fighters.  In addition, the gloves are standard and required, and shoes are not allowed.  (In the original UFC, you could wear gloves if you chose.  Most strikers went bare knuckle because they thought that would give them an advantage--but it generally just meant broken hands.  A boxer named Art Jimmerson actually wore ONE 16 oz. boxing glove, on his right hand, for no reason anyone can fathom.)
There are rounds and time limits and the ref can stop the fight at any time.

There has been exactly one death of which I'm aware in MMA/NHB competition, worldwide.  It happened in Russia and seems to have been the result of letting a guy in to fight who shouldn't have been allowed to compete in any pro sport because of medical complications.  Remember, the Brazilians have been doing Vale Tudo with far fewer rules than the modern UFC something like 60 years.  


Submission wrestling actually has a longer history in the U.S. than it does in Brazil; it's just that we turned it into the soap opera we call pro wrestling today.  It was called Catch-as-Catch-Can, or Catch Wrestling.  It seems there's no one teaching t3h r34l Catch in the U.S. today, although there are some pretenders, but a hundred years ago it was the art of "hookers" who traveled with carnivals offering to wrestle all comers.  Locals could win money for hanging with the hooker for a specified time or for winning.  These matches could be won by pinfall, so there was none of the guard work from the back that you see in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, but falls were often disputed and so submissions were preferred by the professionals.  They employed chokes and joint locks, particularly leg locks, just like modern UFC fighters.

Ron

  • Guest
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2006, 04:35:52 PM »
Good informative post Don, good stuff.

I strarted watching UFC in the very beginning. Lost touch with it for a while and picked up watching it again within the last few years.

I didn't care for the addition of all the rules at first but now I think the sport is better than ever.

I also hope they don't go "Pro Rastlin" on us but stay as a true sport.

They have had pro wrestling type hijinks even from early on. Remember when Kimo first showed up? I think he carried a cross out with him.

Guest

  • Guest
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2006, 06:07:10 PM »
I actually thought that was pretty cool.  He chose a HUGE cross (honestly, Christ probably didn't carry one that big, unless the Holy Spirit helped him lift it) and you could see him struggle with it getting to the ring.  Then he took off the hood and all you could see were tattoos everywhere. . . .

He gave his style at the time as "Tae Kwon Do."  At the time, I didn't really know what TKD was (I was fifteen when the first UFC aired and I saw a tape not long after the original PPV.)  However, as Bas Rutten put it on one of the PRIDE discs, "Either he was lying to try to gain an advantage, or he had a really terrible Tae Kwon Do teacher."  

The only person wackier than Kimo back then was Joe Son, and when I saw him fight later on, I didn't make the connection between him and Kimo.  He was supposedly Kimo's "manager" at the earlier UFC's, but he fought in number five if I recall correctly.  He supposedly had created his own style, called (I am not making this up) "Joe Son Do."  For those of you not following all this inside baseball, remember the first Austin Powers movie?  Remember Random Task, the inscrutable Korean assassin who killed people by throwing his shoe?  Joe Son played that character.  

Anyway, when he got the chance to show what "Joe Son Do" was capable of in the octagon, he ran up against Keith Hackney, a karate guy who was tough and bullish enough to make karate work fairly well in the UFC in those days.  It went to the ground, and neither man really knew what to do, but Hackney eventually worked Joe Son into what's called a "guillotine."  It's a choke that looks like a headlock, but with your opponent facing you.  Joe Son Do's solution to this problem is apparently to strike the opponent's groin.  A LOT.  Poor Hackney took what looked like at least a dozen punches to the shorts.  He still won, though, and that was the last time Joe Son was seen in UFC.

Don Gwinn

  • New Member
  • Posts: 6
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2006, 06:37:24 PM »
This pic shows Matt Hughes performing the choking technique I mentioned before (Rear Naked Choke/RNC) on Frank Trigg.  It's OK, Trigg really deserved it.  Wink
Notice how Hughes puts the forearm across the throat and grips his other elbow so he has the leverage to pull back against the opponent's neck, while the opposite hand goes behind the head to push it forward into the choke (and keeps him from getting a busted nose from his opponent's head at the same time.)  He's not strangling Trigg, as in cutting off air, but choking him by cutting off blood flow to the brain.  If Trigg doesn't tap soon, he'll go out like a light.  However, this is done over and over with no apparent ill effect, and honestly, it can't be any more dangerous than punching someone in the head over and over until their brain takes enough trauma to put them out.  

Also notice that Hughes has "hooks" in--his legs are hooked around Trigg's so that Trigg can't really change the angle between their bodies.  This prevents escape, at least in theory.  In reality, these grapplers train against these submissions over and over and over with fully resisting opponents, and many of them can escape in situations that just leave me scratching my head.  


This is what you're more likely to see, because getting that RNC while standing is not very common in MMA.  But it's a lot easier to see what's happening in the picture above.  In this pic, the referee is checking Trigg for signs that he's losing consciousness or is otherwise unable to defend himself.  If the referee believes a fighter is not "intelligently defending himself" he'll stop the fight right there and it's a TKO.  Since Trigg is not taking strikes or damage other than the choke, he'd probably be allowed to fight the choke to the point of going out if that's what he chooses to do.  If he were being struck and he was at this level of consciousness, however, it's likely the fight would already be over.  In that situation, letting him continue is not going to change the outcome but it dramatically raises the chance that he'll get seriously hurt.  


This is Hughes vs. Georges St. Pierre, the young Canadian fighter who will probably be the one to take Hughes' belt sooner or later.  GSP should get his shot the next time Hughes fights.  They fought at UFC 50 and Hughes won, but GSP is a phenom and Hughes himself has stated that he didn't look forward to their next fight.  


Now, for the people who want to tell you that this is just brutality and there's no sport to it, check this out.  This is Georges St. Pierre carrying Matt Hughes on his back in a victory lap at UFC 50.  This happened not two minutes after Hughes beat St. Pierre!  Remember, GSP had just lost a fight he spent months training for.  Can you imagine the Yankees doing this for the Red Sox when the Sox won the Series?  These two are the biggest rivals in the Welterweight division and they didn't know each other at all until they fought, but the respect was certainly there (although Hughes did say later that he was a little nervous up there.)  Smiley

Vodka7

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,067
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2006, 07:52:55 PM »
Speaking of sportsmanship, here's my favorite of middleweight champion Rich Franklin (left) and contender David Loiseau after their fight at UFC 58:



And in case you think the victory was entirely one sided, take a look at one of the reasons Rich is in the bed in the first place:


Don Gwinn

  • New Member
  • Posts: 6
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2006, 08:04:44 PM »
Franklin is a class act.  It's nice to see him succeeding.  I remember when there was talk of him retiring because he just couldn't seem to get any traction.

Ron

  • Guest
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2006, 02:32:30 AM »
Hackney is/was an HVAC guy like I am, he would frquent some of the same supply houses.

Never got a chance to meet him but the guys that did said he was anice guy, a pretty big guy also. He didn't look too big next to that Sumu Wrestler he fought. I think he broke his hand in that fight.

Don Gwinn

  • New Member
  • Posts: 6
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2006, 05:21:51 AM »
He did, but the alternative was probably worse.  Also, you don't have to call it "Sumu."  I've never figured out why that announcer said that.  "Well, we've just seen Sumu and Judu both used in the octagon, and I think at this point the edge would have to go to Judu."  

What kind of sports announcer has never heard of Sumo or Judo?

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,385
  • I Am Inimical
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2006, 07:17:56 AM »
Vodka,

Are you saying the man was beaten so hard that he developed two left arms?
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Don Gwinn

  • New Member
  • Posts: 6
As promised: Hughes/Gracie, UFC 60
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2006, 06:19:50 PM »
Smiley
It took me a minute to see the break.