Author Topic: Giving the Finger to Europe  (Read 4515 times)

Wildalaska

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
Giving the Finger to Europe
« on: March 04, 2005, 10:07:06 PM »
Damn I love Mark Steyn.....

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahah

U.S. can sit back and watch Europe implode

February 27, 2005

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

A week ago, the conventional wisdom was that George W. Bush had seen the error of his unilateral cowboy ways and was setting off to Europe to mend fences with America's ''allies.''

I think not. Lester Pearson, the late Canadian prime minister, used to say that diplomacy is the art of letting the other fellow have your way. All week long President Bush offered a hilariously parodic reductio of Pearson's bon mot, wandering from one European Union gabfest to another insisting how much he loves his good buddy Jacques and his good buddy Gerhard and how Europe and America share -- what's the standard formulation? -- ''common values.'' Care to pin down an actual specific value or two that we share? Well, you know, ''freedom,'' that sort of thing, abstract nouns mostly. Love to list a few more common values, but gotta run.

And at the end what's changed?

Will the United States sign on to Kyoto?

No.

Will the United States join the International Criminal Court?

No.

Will the United States agree to accept whatever deal the Anglo-Franco-German negotiators cook up with Iran?

No.

Even more remarkably, aside from sticking to his guns in the wider world, the president also found time to cast his eye upon Europe's internal affairs. As he told his audience in Brussels, in the first speech of his tour, ''We must reject anti-Semitism in all forms and we must condemn violence such as that seen in the Netherlands.''

The Euro-bigwigs shuffled their feet and stared coldly into their mistresses' decolletage. They knew Bush wasn't talking about anti-Semitism in Nebraska, but about France, where for three years there's been a sustained campaign of synagogue burning and cemetery desecration, and Germany, where the Berlin police advise Jewish residents not to go out in public wearing any identifying marks of their faith.

The ''violence in the Netherlands'' is a reference to Theo van Gogh, murdered by a Dutch Islamist for making a film critical of the Muslim treatment of women. Van Gogh's professional colleagues reacted to this assault on freedom of speech by canceling his movie from the Rotterdam Film Festival and scheduling some Islamist propaganda instead.

The president, in other words, understands that for Europe, unlike America, the war on terror is an internal affair, a matter of defusing large unassimilated radicalized Muslim immigrant populations before they provoke the inevitable resurgence of opportunist political movements feeding off old hatreds. Difficult trick to pull off, especially on a continent where the ruling elite feels it's in the people's best interest not to pay any attention to them.

The new EU ''constitution,'' for example, would be unrecognizable as such to any American. I had the opportunity to talk with former French President Valery Giscard d'Estaing on a couple of occasions during his long labors as the self-declared and strictly single Founding Father. He called himself ''Europe's Jefferson,'' and I didn't like to quibble that, constitution-wise, Jefferson was Europe's Jefferson -- that's to say, at the time the U.S. Constitution was drawn up, Thomas Jefferson was living in France. Thus, for Giscard to be Europe's Jefferson, he'd have to be in Des Moines, where he'd be doing far less damage.

But, quibbles aside, President Giscard professed to be looking in the right direction. When I met him, he had an amiable riff on how he'd been in Washington and bought one of those compact copies of the U.S. Constitution on sale for a buck or two. Many Americans wander round with the constitution in their pocket so they can whip it out and chastise over-reaching congressmen and senators at a moment's notice. Try going round with the European Constitution in your pocket and you'll be walking with a limp after two hours: It's 511 pages, which is 500 longer than the U.S. version. It's full of stuff about European space policy, Slovakian nuclear plants, water resources, free expression for children, the right to housing assistance, preventive action on the environment, etc.

Most of the so-called constitution isn't in the least bit constitutional. That's to say, it's not content, as the U.S. Constitution is, to define the distribution and limitation of powers. Instead, it reads like a U.S. defense spending bill that's got porked up with a ton of miscellaneous expenditures for the ''mohair subsidy'' and other notorious Congressional boondoggles. President Ronald Reagan liked to say, ''We are a nation that has a government -- not the other way around.'' If you want to know what it looks like the other way round, read Monsieur Giscard's constitution.

But the fact is it's going to be ratified, and Washington is hardly in a position to prevent it. Plus there's something to be said for the theory that, as the EU constitution is a disaster waiting to happen, you might as well cut down the waiting and let it happen. CIA analysts predict the collapse of the EU within 15 years. I'd say, as predictions of doom go, that's a little on the cautious side.

But either way the notion that it's a superpower in the making is preposterous. Most administration officials subscribe to one of two views: a) Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater; or b) Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater where the whole powder keg's about to go up.

For what it's worth, I incline to the latter position. Europe's problems -- its unaffordable social programs, its deathbed demographics, its dependence on immigration numbers that no stable nation (not even America in the Ellis Island era) has ever successfully absorbed -- are all of Europe's making. By some projections, the EU's population will be 40 percent Muslim by 2025. Already, more people each week attend Friday prayers at British mosques than Sunday service at Christian churches -- and in a country where Anglican bishops have permanent seats in the national legislature.

Some of us think an Islamic Europe will be easier for America to deal with than the present Europe of cynical, wily, duplicitous pseudo-allies. But getting there is certain to be messy, and violent.

Until the shape of the new Europe begins to emerge, there's no point picking fights with the terminally ill. The old Europe is dying, and Mr. Bush did the diplomatic equivalent of the Oscar night lifetime-achievement tribute at which the current stars salute a once glamorous old-timer whose fading aura is no threat to them. The 21st century is being built elsewhere.
I'm just a condescending, supercilious,  pompous ass .But then again, my opinion is as irrelevant as yours, and keep in mind kids, it's only the internet! If I bug ya that much, ignore me. Anyway, need something? Call me at 800/992-4570.
?If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers?

http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/gravity/index.html

http://www.therealwildalaska.com/blog/

Happy Bob

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 74
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2005, 10:38:08 PM »
Dang ... the guy's good.
WE DON'T WEAR FUR.
(We have it made into Cowboy Hats)

wasrjoe

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 118
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2005, 10:38:53 PM »
511 pages? Holy crap. KISS...
Disenchanted with the Libertarian party and seeking practical ways to promote personal liberty.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36

  • New Member
  • Posts: 92
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2005, 11:28:55 PM »
Quote
CIA analysts predict the collapse of the EU within 15 years. I'd say, as predictions of doom go, that's a little on the cautious side.


Aren't these the same folks at CIA who completely missed the impending collapse of the Soviet Union?

You'd do better with a magic 8-ball than by listening to CIA predictions.

Quote
Some of us think an Islamic Europe will be easier for America to deal with than the present Europe of cynical, wily, duplicitous pseudo-allies. But getting there is certain to be messy, and violent.


How will the loss of our Christian European heritage, our roots, be of any great benefit to us?
"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it."
Henry David Thoreau

BillBlank

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2005, 01:11:20 AM »
May I gently agree with coolhand that people with at least some semblance of the same values that you have are easier to deal with than those whose culture shares little similarity to your own.
Just so happens Satan's behind the bar pulling the late shift for a buddy...

MaterDei

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2005, 03:41:24 AM »
Nice article.  Have you got a link?

Ron

  • Guest
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2005, 04:12:32 AM »
I like Mark Steyn and enjoy his "take" on things.

 I believe you can find this article on his web site.

http://www.steynonline.com/index.cfm

Wildalaska

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2005, 09:39:04 AM »
Quote
How will the loss of our Christian European heritage, our roots, be of any great benefit to us?


When the roots are rotten, as they have been for hundreds and hundreds of years, they do no good. Better to get punched in the face instead of stabbed in the back.

Historically, the Msolem world was far more tolerant to others than the "Christian" west...

WildbutheytoeachhisownAlaska
I'm just a condescending, supercilious,  pompous ass .But then again, my opinion is as irrelevant as yours, and keep in mind kids, it's only the internet! If I bug ya that much, ignore me. Anyway, need something? Call me at 800/992-4570.
?If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers?

http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/gravity/index.html

http://www.therealwildalaska.com/blog/

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2005, 10:31:39 AM »
Quote
Historically, the Moslem world was far more tolerant to others than the "Christian" West...


Look where that got 'em.

I'm not sure that special increased taxes and ghettoized housing, along with lesser legal standing, interspersed with unofficial pogroms by the young and reactive, are truly that much better a legacy than the relatively brief period of official church stupidity considering the outcomes for all involved that flowed from each tradition.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Standing Wolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,978
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2005, 11:09:07 AM »
Quote
Historically, the Msolem world was far more tolerant to others than the "Christian" west...


In the year 1200, yes. In the year 1800, no.

Islam today is where Christianity was about 800 years ago.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Wildalaska

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2005, 11:54:58 AM »
I guess the question is..will we see a Islamist "Reformation" during our lifetimes...of course you do have Turkey,,,,,which is an example of a tolerant, Islamic democratic state.

WildwhichpissesofftheeurostonoendimayaddAlaska
I'm just a condescending, supercilious,  pompous ass .But then again, my opinion is as irrelevant as yours, and keep in mind kids, it's only the internet! If I bug ya that much, ignore me. Anyway, need something? Call me at 800/992-4570.
?If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers?

http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/gravity/index.html

http://www.therealwildalaska.com/blog/

Cool Hand Luke 22:36

  • New Member
  • Posts: 92
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2005, 11:56:19 AM »
Quote
In the year 1200, yes. In the year 1800, no.

Islam today is where Christianity was about 800 years ago.



I'm not sure if I would give Islam even this much credit. It has been a murderously violent movement right from the beginning, with only brief periods of relative sanity.

For example, the Hindus of Central Asia have faced unending genocide at the hands of Muslims. "Hindu Kush" is a name derived from the term Sanskrit(?) term "Hindu Slaughter." The Muslims killed hundereds of millions of Hindus over the millenia during their push into that region.

The idea of a benign, tolerant Islam in the past is a politically correct myth.

One gets the impression that if the Spanish hadn't pushed to Moors out, they would have repeated this slaughter in Western Europe.

Having said this, I agree that the Christian churches in parts of the world have  certainly been corrupt to the extent that they have driven many away.  The rise of Paganism and eventually Islam in Western Europe will be a result.

Steyn's essay neglects the strength of the Christian Churches in parts of Eastern Europe, e.g., Poland, and in Russia.
"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it."
Henry David Thoreau

Cool Hand Luke 22:36

  • New Member
  • Posts: 92
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2005, 12:06:15 PM »
Quote
When the roots are rotten, as they have been for hundreds and hundreds of years, they do no good. Better to get punched in the face instead of stabbed in the back.


To mention just one potential negative aspect of "Eurabia" keep in mind that you're talking about a religion in which even many of the mainstream followers agree that music and the artistic depiction of the human form are wrongs.

That's their belief system and they are certainly entilted to it. No argument there.

But are you prepared to say that the destruction of the titanic artistic heritage of Western Europe is a good thing?

We also need to discuss the potential negative impact of Islam on other aspects of Western European culture. Issues such as women's rights and democracy.

The problem with Muslims in Western Europe is that the young ones are much more likely to follow the teachings of Osama Bin-Laden than Kamal Ataturk.
"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it."
Henry David Thoreau

BillBlank

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2005, 12:41:45 PM »
You are joking right? There were two reasons why the kurds wanted their own state, Saddam in the south and turkey in the north. Would you like me to cite sources for my opinion that turkey is a brutal place with little regard for human rights? If even france objects to their entry to the EU on turkeys human rights record then maybe they aren't as enlightened a nation as you believe. Another example of the simple truth that religion has nothing to do with standards of behaviour, humans are nasty little critters whatever god they bow too.
Just so happens Satan's behind the bar pulling the late shift for a buddy...

Cool Hand Luke 22:36

  • New Member
  • Posts: 92
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2005, 12:45:47 PM »
Quote
Another example of the simple truth that religion has nothing to do with standards of behaviour, humans are nasty little critters whatever god they bow too.


Amen to that.
"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it."
Henry David Thoreau

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2005, 09:31:31 AM »
Wildalaska wrote:
Quote
Historically, the Msolem world was far more tolerant to others than the "Christian" west...


I would suggest a Google search on the term "dhimmitude" might help clear any misconceptions held on this subject.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2006, 11:13:01 AM »
Quote from: jfruser
Wildalaska wrote:
Quote
Historically, the Msolem world was far more tolerant to others than the "Christian" west...
I would suggest a Google search on the term "dhimmitude" might help clear any misconceptions held on this subject.
I would suggest a Google search on "ghetto", "Crusades," "Spanish Inquisition", and other charming facets of Christian Europe might clear your obvious misconceptions on this subject.

I'll point out the article's date suggests it is over a year old.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Marnoot

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,965
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2006, 11:34:27 AM »
Quote
I'll point out the article's date suggests it is over a year old.
I'll point out the first post's date indicates this thread is over a year old. Tongue

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2006, 11:38:36 AM »
Quote from: Marnoot
Quote
I'll point out the article's date suggests it is over a year old.
I'll point out the first post's date indicates this thread is over a year old. Tongue
I wondered why WildAlaska was posting here again.....Veddy interesting.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2006, 11:39:04 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: jfruser
Wildalaska wrote:
Quote
Historically, the Msolem world was far more tolerant to others than the "Christian" west...
I would suggest a Google search on the term "dhimmitude" might help clear any misconceptions held on this subject.
I would suggest a Google search on "ghetto", "Crusades," "Spanish Inquisition", and other charming facets of Christian Europe might clear your obvious misconceptions on this subject.

I'll point out the article's date suggests it is over a year old.
NO religion has completely clean hands.  I would suggest a Google search on "Levan affair", "USS Liberty", "Ahmed Bouchiki", "Irgun", "Hagana", 'Stern Gang", "Palestinian refugee camp massacre", etc.  For what its worth, I no more think these incidents TYPIFY all Jews than the ones you cite typify all Christians,...but you WILL kindly note that they have happened a LOT more recently, and that they have happened AFTER thousands of Allied lives were lost putting a stop to the Holocaust - most of them Christian.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2006, 11:41:13 AM »
Quote from: richyoung
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: jfruser
Wildalaska wrote:

I would suggest a Google search on the term "dhimmitude" might help clear any misconceptions held on this subject.
I would suggest a Google search on "ghetto", "Crusades," "Spanish Inquisition", and other charming facets of Christian Europe might clear your obvious misconceptions on this subject.

I'll point out the article's date suggests it is over a year old.
NO religion has completely clean hands.  I would suggest a Google search on "Levan affair", "USS Liberty", "Ahmed Bouchiki", "Irgun", "Hagana", 'Stern Gang", "Palestinian refugee camp massacre", etc.  For what its worth, I no more think these incidents TYPIFY all Jews than the ones you cite typify all Christians,...but you WILL kindly note that they have happened a LOT more recently, and that they have happened AFTER thousands of Allied lives were lost putting a stop to the Holocaust - most of them Christian.
I dont see the relevance of any of the terms you cite to this discussion at all.  Unless you are just trying to rile prejudice against Jews.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,385
  • I Am Inimical
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2006, 01:13:17 PM »
"I dont see the relevance of any of the terms you cite to this discussion at all.  Unless you are just trying to rile prejudice against Jews."

But riling prejudice against Muslims is just fine and dandy...

It means that Jews are just as much of a bunch of blood thirsty bastards as Christians and Muslims when it suits their needs, wants, and desires...

Is it my imagination, or is it generally only Christians who will admit to their faith's savage side?

Oops, I guess I'm an (insert descriptive term of the nature of my supposed bias here).
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2006, 01:52:42 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
 I dont see the relevance of any of the terms you cite to this discussion at all.
None are so blind as those who refuse to see...
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

grampster

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,450
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2006, 02:04:29 PM »
If one would think about it for a second, if you remove religious connotations, you'll find that humankind has not been so kind at all.  That's why, even thought I'd prefer kumbaya, we'll never see it.  To many selfish interests.  
We of the gun culture like to say it's not the gun that kills, it people.  Well, I submit it works the same way with religion.  Take away religion, man will find another reason to slaughter his neighbor.

That's why it's really so futile to be debating who's god/God/g*d is better.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Giving the Finger to Europe
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2006, 02:11:48 PM »
Quote from: richyoung
Quote from: The Rabbi
 I dont see the relevance of any of the terms you cite to this discussion at all.
None are so blind as those who refuse to see...
You could adopt that as your sig line.

Obviously I need to flesh it out for you.
The discussion had to do with tolerance and rights in different societies.  The point was made that Muslim societies historically were much more tolerant than Christian ones.  Someone took issue with that by mentioning the concept of "dhimmi."  Notwithstanding that idea, non-Muslims still had rights, especially under the Ottomans, that non-Christians could only dream about in Europe.  On the other hand, Christian Europe uniformly granted no rights to non-Christians and persecuted them terribly.  This was the general condition in societies.
Your response focuses on a few isolated incidents in Israel's history.  It is not general to any society.  Indeed, non-Jewish citizens in Israel have full rights with Jewish citizens.
So, I have to ask, why bring up some isolated incidents affecting maybe 1000 people in all when the discussion has been about widespread societal and political practices that lasted for thousands of years?
And I am still asking this question.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.