Author Topic: Occupy Wall Street evicted  (Read 5528 times)

Blakenzy

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Occupy Wall Street evicted
« on: November 15, 2011, 07:44:50 PM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/nov/15/occupy-wall-street-zuccotti-eviction-live

then Zuccotti park gets cleaned: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/nov/15/zuccotti-park-occupy-evicted-video

and then protesters went and got this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/zuccotti-park-eviction-co_n_1094675.html

which led to confrontation and arrests of people trying to get back in the park: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8892867/NY-police-arrest-protesters-returning-to-Zuccotti-Park.html

Mayor Bloomberg states:

Quote
“No right is absolute and with every right comes responsibilities. The First Amendment gives every New Yorker the right to speak out – but it does not give anyone the right to sleep in a park or otherwise take it over to the exclusion of others – nor does it permit anyone in our society to live outside the law. There is no ambiguity in the law here – the First Amendment protects speech – it does not protect the use of tents and sleeping bags to take over a public space.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/11/mayor-bloomberg-explain-occupy-wall-street-eviction/44991/

The First Amendment also gives "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" so at what point have people assembled for too long?

I take issue with the " no right is absolute" part... I guess it's the same reasoning he uses to suppress 2nd Amendment rights. OK, so he effectively makes Constitutional Rights conditional, but conditional to what? Compatibility with municipal law? Compatibility with the Mayor's agenda?

Your thoughts?
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 07:57:21 PM »
Conditional with private property rights (Yes, Zuccotti park is a privately owned park).  And frankly, the owners of that property have the right to not have it turned into a massive cesspool by the "occupy" crowd.  They've established rules that they hope will prevent it from being used as a giant outdoor toilet.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 07:58:25 PM »
Zocotti Park is private, not a city owned park.  The owners >>>>could<<< have asked the authorities to evict the occupiers on day one.
Aside from that; these guys were defecating in public, becoming a general nuisance, there were attacks on women (rapes & one elderly lady shoved down a staircase) and other violations.  The first amendment doesn't cover that.  We don't have to get into an argument about how "absolute" a right is to put an end to SOME things.
"My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins."


^^^
That's an old bromide.  It's somewhat misleading in fact, since if I DO swing at you without connecting it's still assault.  If I hit you, it's assault & battery.
I respect these peoples' first amendment rights, but nevertheless I believe many of them are clueless moochers and other types of nogoodniks.  Certainly some are misguided and are "useful idiots."
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

S. Williamson

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 08:16:15 PM »
... if I DO swing at you without connecting it's still assault.  If I hit you, it's assault & battery.
Lame comedy aside, is there such a thing as battery without assault?  ???
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Blakenzy

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2011, 08:24:23 PM »
Quote
frankly, the owners of that property have the right to not have it turned into a massive cesspool

Agreed, property rights which, for some reason, they have chosen to waive... Police action did not come because private owners sought an eviction order.

Quote
there were attacks on women (rapes & one elderly lady shoved down a staircase)

LOL, I agree that it's clear that the First Amendment doesn't protect such conduct, but I think that such occurrences are intrinsic to New York itself, and not a direct consequence of an occupied park. It's hard to say that people weren't attacked in New York until the "occupy" people came around. In any event, it's not like the "movement" is about raping women and throwing old people down stairs either. You can't advocate collective punishment for random, individual acts.
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

S. Williamson

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 08:28:56 PM »
You can't advocate collective punishment for random, individual acts.
Funny, because that's what happens with legislation all the freakin' time.  =(
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"The chances of finding out what's really going on are so remote, the only thing to do is hang the sense of it and keep yourself occupied. I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
"And are you?"
"No, that's where it all falls apart I'm afraid. Pity, it sounds like quite a nice lifestyle otherwise."
-Douglas Adams

Azrael256

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 09:14:15 PM »
1st amendment rights? Really?  The Flea Party vs. PRNY, and that's all you can come up with?

They were all in one place, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_YU55


TommyGunn

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2011, 12:53:29 AM »
....LOL, I agree that it's clear that the First Amendment doesn't protect such conduct, but I think that such occurrences are intrinsic to New York itself, and not a direct consequence of an occupied park. It's hard to say that people weren't attacked in New York until the "occupy" people came around. In any event, it's not like the "movement" is about raping women and throwing old people down stairs either. You can't advocate collective punishment for random, individual acts.

While the narrator of an old movie did intone that "there are eight million stories in the Naked City," and it is true that rapes (as well as other more serious crimes) can happen most anywhere, the fact that that these incidents seemed to be accumulating in Zuccotti Park is not something the police -- and even Mayor Bloomberg -- could ignore for long.  The "crime hot spot" would have to be dealt with.  The same would be true if it were to be noticed that an inordinate number of rapes were happening in a certain secluded area of Central Park, for example.  The police, noticing the trend, would definantly take action -- or would when the activists started complaining.  The action taken might be different, of course, but it would receive special attention.
And no I am not advocating collective punishment.  IF the individuals could be identified they need to be dealt with through the correct judicial process.
However, remember there are other factors present; the public defecation, and other sanitation and health issues, plus the problems experienced by the property owner and even ordinary passersby who need to make way to and from work.  They have rights too.  I am not advocating that we abrogate rights, but at some point, reality dictates a "balancing" may have to take place.  If the protestors' rights cannot be abrogated then why should the property owner's rights be any less sacrosanct?  
Now just where this balance happens .... that might be a bit of a sticky wicket ....so I'll leave it at that for now. >:D
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Perd Hapley

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2011, 01:08:30 AM »
The Fleabaggers were tossed out, in St. Louis, last Friday. They had been camping, sans permit, right smack in the middle of downtown. And just when I was getting ready to go sit in their tents with them. Hey, I'm just occupying your tent, dude. I got rights! =D
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makattak

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2011, 08:29:22 AM »
Squatting is not a right.

Squatting is also not free speech. Neither is squalor.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

birdman

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2011, 08:58:02 AM »
Lame comedy aside, is there such a thing as battery without assault?  ???

Assault requires intent.  Battery is the result of an action.  If I'm randomly flailing my arms around for 30min, and at minute 29 you walk into them from behind, it's technically battery but not assault AFAIK.  True, the "victim" was stupid, and it probably wouldn't stick (this is an absurd case), but it would be battery, but since there was no intent to harm, there was no assault.

makattak

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2011, 09:19:38 AM »
Assault requires intent.  Battery is the result of an action.  If I'm randomly flailing my arms around for 30min, and at minute 29 you walk into them from behind, it's technically battery but not assault AFAIK.  True, the "victim" was stupid, and it probably wouldn't stick (this is an absurd case), but it would be battery, but since there was no intent to harm, there was no assault.

Doesn't battery also require mens rea, making it always a case of assault and battery?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Tallpine

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2011, 11:13:39 AM »
Quote
is there such a thing as battery without assault?

There is probably a charge for that.
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Ron

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2011, 11:21:44 AM »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MechAg94

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2011, 11:59:57 AM »
Squatting is not a right.

Squatting is also not free speech. Neither is squalor.
That is what I would say as well.  I imagine it might be different if these people were dispersing in the evening and going home and coming back in the day time. 

Another issue is general health and welfare. If conditions are not sanitary and disease is starting to spread, wouldn't the city have a responsibility to address that issue?  IMO, the could also require them to get permits or pay for port-o-johns. 

I have heard that the owner of the park in New York has ties to VP Joe Biden.
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Ned Hamford

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2011, 12:45:51 PM »
Taking a quick look into the park... oh yah, its the city, very complex interweaving of laws.  Quick summation, in exchange for extra rights for buildings [zoning], corporations can create Privately Owned Public Spaces, POPS.  And POPS are regulated down to which way chairs can face.  So, while 'private,' they've effectively ceased to be as the city can effectively bring the ceiling crashing down for perceived violations, such as switching categories to closed at night.  If you've got a skyscraper, whose floor plan was approved contingent on continued availability of a POPS, you can't really mess around with your POPS. 
POPS!
Improbus a nullo flectitur obsequio.

Ned Hamford

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2011, 02:10:48 PM »
Thinking on the flailing limb discussion...  Such things really go to the metaphysical.  As it is fact dependent on a state of mind.  So at best, person will face both charges and the jury will split the difference, or maybe just a plea deal.  Threatening to hit someone is encompassed by the act of hitting someone.  The victim's perception of the threat being immaterial.  So the practical questions are how voluntarily the action and if that person had reason to suspect someone else was coming within flail range.   

Improbus a nullo flectitur obsequio.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Blakenzy

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2011, 03:37:19 AM »
Here's an interesting interview... can't comment on authenticity but he appears to be an Oath Keeper... if he's real he is either retired or soon to be fired.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QoNP5RhKnE&feature=related

I find his philosophy on the use of force refreshing, regardless of the surrounding political circumstance.
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2011, 08:27:26 AM »
hes a nut  similar to ramsey clark

hes a retired philly cop
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Perd Hapley

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2011, 10:16:17 AM »
Can we really call it an eviction, when they were never legally allowed to live there?
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longeyes

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2011, 10:43:55 AM »
The First Amendment came after a revolution, not before.  These things don't follow peacetime rules.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Occupy Wall Street evicted
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2011, 10:44:48 AM »
Can we really call it an eviction, when they were never legally allowed to live there?

yea  since the spineless political and campus leaders allowed them to stay they may have to formally evict them
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I