A proposed bill concerning gun purchase in Missouri

[Perd Hapley]

That people in Missouri would elect someone that would try to compare gun ownership and purchases to the act of having an abortion.

You're aware she represents one small (and very wealthy) part of St. Louis County, and not the whole state, right? Would you be ashamed to have Texan relatives, because the mayor of Houston tried to have sermons subpoenaed? 

[makattak]

You use 3 terms here.  Human, fetus, and person.  There are, however, some quirks.

A fetus is a human, no real question about it.
A fetus, however, isn't a person.  At least 'not yet'.  You look at historical societies, you can see ones that wouldn't ascribe a baby as being a person, they wouldn't even give it a name, until it survived it's 1-3rd birthday.  Many, many, only bother upon birth.

Persons, whether they're human, alien, AI, or even uplift, are what deserve our protection. 

I want abortion to be rare, yes, but in general I'd rather a woman carry a child to term because she wants to, not because she's forced to.

That is exactly why I used that term,  because the people whose god is SCIENCE! suddenly get metaphysical and talk about a concept of "person" when discussing murdering babies.

Apparently you are so certain about this metaphysical concept, you are willing to take the chance you might be wrong at the cost of 50+ million lives.

[charby]

Not to call you out, but because I've never heard this before - do you have a reference handy?

No problem, I had to look it up. I was off by a century, it was a 1500's Swiss Chemist named Paracelsus. So this is still in the time of alchemy. I was trying to go off a memory from 20 or so years ago.

Franz Hartmann 1896 "Life of Paracelsus" took a translation from one of Paracelsus books/notes.

If the sperma, enclosed in a hermetically sealed glass, is buried in horse manure for forty days, and properly magnetized, it begins to live and move. After such a time it bears the form and resemblance of a human being, but it will be transparent and without a body. If it is now artificially fed with the Arcanum sanguinis hominis until it is about forty weeks old, and if allowed to remain during that time in horse manure in a continually equal temperature, it will grow into a human child, with all its members developed like any other child, such as could be born by a woman; only it will be much smaller. We call such a being a homunculus, and it may be raised and educated like any other child, until it grows older and obtains reason and intellect, and is able to take care of itself.
 

[charby]

pretty sure he just used it as an excuse to keep jars of his own semen lying about

Original Brony.

[Perd Hapley]

That is exactly why I used that term,  because the people whose god is SCIENCE! suddenly get metaphysical and talk about a concept of "person" when discussing murdering babies.

Yup. You can be religious, and claim that embryos haven't yet received a soul; or you can be a secularist, and just claim they aren't people.

In the opinion of the court, the legislation and histories of the times, and the language used in the Declaration of Independence, show, that neither the class of persons who had been imported as slaves, nor their descendants, whether they had become free or not, were then acknowledged as a part of the people, nor intended to be included in the general words used in that memorable instrument.

It is difficult at this day to realize the state of public opinion in relation to that unfortunate race, which prevailed in the civilized and enlightened portions of the world at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and when the Constitution of the United States was framed and adopted. But the public history of every European nation displays it in a manner too plain to be mistaken.

They had for more than a century before been regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations; and so far inferior, that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect; and that the negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his benefit. He was bought and sold, and treated as an ordinary article of merchandise and traffic, whenever a profit could be made by it. This opinion was at that time fixed and universal in the civilized portion of the white race. It was regarded as an axiom in morals as well as in politics, which no one thought of disputing, or supposed to be open to dispute; and men in every grade and position in society daily and habitually acted upon it in their private pursuits, as well as in matters of public concern, without doubting for a moment the correctness of this opinion.

- See more at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/60/393.html#sthash.BlGCueQ3.dpuf

[Firethorn]

That is exactly why I used that term,  because the people whose god is SCIENCE! suddenly get metaphysical and talk about a concept of "person" when discussing murdering babies.

Apparently you are so certain about this metaphysical concept, you are willing to take the chance you might be wrong at the cost of 50+ million lives.

They aren't babies.  Babies are what they are once they're born, before that they're a fetus.  As for 'personhood', It's not a metaphysical concept.  The defining line can be shifted a bit, but it involves a thinking being that acts upon it's experiences and such.  A fetus isn't a person.  Heck, even a newborn isn't really a person yet, but I'm willing to extend the protection to them in order to be sure we're protecting people.

I'm 'so certain' because I've already pushed the protection past the definition.

I suppose you don't consider the costs of denying abortion(and in some cases, meaningful sex ed that actually reduces teen pregnancy), do you?  Increased taxes, increased crime, increased number of children in broken homes...

Look, I think there's too much abortion today, but I don't support getting rid of it.  That way lies South America and their tendency to try women who have a miscarriage with having had an abortion, putting them in prison for murder.

[cordex]

You look at historical societies, you can see ones that wouldn't ascribe a baby as being a person, they wouldn't even give it a name, until it survived it's 1-3rd birthday.  Many, many, only bother upon birth.

So if something was accepted as fact in antiquity it should be accepted today?

[Perd Hapley]

Embryos are referred to as babies. Anyone who speaks English knows this.

I suppose you don't consider the costs of denying abortion(and in some cases, meaningful sex ed that actually reduces teen pregnancy), do you?  Increased taxes, increased crime, increased number of children in broken homes...Look, I think there's too much abortion today, but I don't support getting rid of it.  That way lies South America and their tendency to try women who have a miscarriage with having had an abortion, putting them in prison for murder.

Those must be some of the stupidest false dichotomies across which I've ever come. They don't really rate a response, other than pointing out that, yes, of course it easy to reduce the crime rate by legalizing murder. Duh.

The cost of denying abortion... :rolleyes: