Legalism Run Amuck?

[lee n. field]

How odd that so many intelligent people can be hung up on the idea that an entity (whether God or an egg) is made up of parts.

God being "simple" (without parts) probably doesn't mean what you think it does.

[Hawkmoon]

At least, that's the way I recall it from the Nun teaching the "altar boy" class, but boy, that was 1954-55 or so.

Ya gotta watch out for what nuns teach. When I was in college I dated a young lady from a nearby all-girls Catholic college. The young lady told me the nuns taught her that it was okay to make out ... as long as she didn't enjoy it.

[cordex]

The young lady told me the nuns taught her that it was okay to make out ... as long as she didn't enjoy it.

Did you tell her she was in luck?

[Doggy Daddy]

God being "simple" (without parts) probably doesn't mean what you think it does.

Sorry, you lost me there.

[Hawkmoon]

Did you tell her she was in luck?

We worked it out ...

[230RN]

 A lot of things change from year to year, Pope to Pope.

Anyhow the Pagans would aver that the reason for the Trinity was to appeal to the multitheistic primitive religion people.  Well, not every  Pagan, since it is a Pagan Principle that if you ask 13 of them a question, you will get 13 different answers.  According to 7.7% of them, that's one of Paganism's charms.  According to another 7.7% of them Terry is just a wannabe Pagan, and don't listen to him.

BUT... what with all the diversity and controversy among the thousands of religions in the world, I echo Starhawk's plaint that religions should look at other religions as collaborators instead of competitors.

Terry, 230RN

[dogmush]

Anyhow the Pagans would aver that the reason for the Trinity was to appeal to the multitheistic primitive religion people.  Well, not every  Pagan, since it is a Pagan Principle that if you ask 13 of them a question, you will get 13 15 different answers.  According to 7.7% of them, that's one of Paganism's charms.  According to another 7.7% of them Terry is just a wannabe Pagan, and don't listen to him.

FIFY 

On the OP, I'm confused.  Are [some] Catholics claiming that their god would not accept that as a "real" baptism because of the wrong word, and that no matter the rest of their lives and soul, were they to stand before him in judgment he would find them unbaptized and cast them out?  Because a priest used the wrong pronoun when they were an infant?

That's........something.

[Grandpa Shooter]

I have never understood why so many folks seem to strangle at the concept that religion is man made.  Having faith in a creator and holding to the principles set forth is not that hard.  It is when religion gets involved that things go awry.  When we say, Hey there's Bob, we are not saying there is Bob's arm, or head, or leg, just There is Bob.  The Trinity is just a way of acknowledging that God is made of many parts.  I have faith that holding to basic principles is what God wants of us.  I don't practice a particular religion because my experience has been that there are many false concepts in every religion.  If indeed someone is acting out of Faith, and is doing God's will, that should be what is considered to be valid.  I have experienced death on many levels with family and friends and it has always been a relief to the person dying to have someone say that they are ok with God and to go ahead and go to Him.  We don't know if God is ok with them, they will find out on their own someday.  If an action is taken out of faith in a Supreme Being, I don't have to agree with it, nor do I have to understand it.  It is what it is.

[Pb]

Grandpa shooter, what you describe is religion.

Definition of religion
1a: the state of a religious
a nun in her 20th year of religion
b(1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

[MechAg94]

The idea of the Christian Faith being different from Christian religions is common.  It doesn't surprise me at all that the dictionary would roll it up under the same meaning.  It is easy and tempting to get caught up in the rules of the religion and forget the point of it all.  That is big part of what Jesus was opposing with the Jewish religious leadership in Israel.  Grace versus Legalism.  There are good things we want a religious organization to do (teaching, supporting missionaries, training pastors, etc).  We just need to recognize that it can get out of control because mankind is far from perfect (same pitfalls as Government). 

Christianity is God seeking man through the salvation ministry of Jesus Christ.  Religion is man seeking God through his own works.   

[Doggy Daddy]

The idea of the Christian Faith being different from Christian religions is common.

....

Christianity is God seeking man through the salvation ministry of Jesus Christ.  Religion is man seeking God through his own works.   

QFT!!

[cordex]

Religion is man seeking God through his own works.   

James 1:27 says otherwise.

[MechAg94]

James 1:27 says otherwise.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/James-1-27/

James 1:27 Context

24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. 26If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. 27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

This uses the word more traditionally, but seems to make a similar point. 

IMO, "religion" is commonly used these days to represent the organization man has set up.  I guess that may just be one use of the word.  I think I understood the point my pastor was making that is the most important thing to me. 

[cordex]

This uses the word more traditionally, but seems to make a similar point.

If the point is that men regularly fail to live up to the standards they claim to follow or do evil in the name of good, then sure.  My point is that I think it is a mistake to then go on to label that failure and evil as "religion".

[Doggy Daddy]

Religion is man seeking God through his own works.   

James 1:27 says otherwise.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

[MechAg94]

If the point is that men regularly fail to live up to the standards they claim to follow or do evil in the name of good, then sure.  My point is that I think it is a mistake to then go on to label that failure and evil as "religion".

The first point, yes.  The line I repeated about Christ's ministry versus "religion" was intended to make a specific point about religious organizations.  As with many things, I guess we have to be careful how far we take it.

I was raised in a non-denominational Church that wasn't part of a bigger structure so others might view it differently.  The organizations are set up to serve Christ's ministry.  They are not Christ's ministry themselves.  I am not sure if I am saying that in the best way and I don't want to carry it too far.

[dogmush]

[cordex]

The line I repeated about Christ's ministry versus "religion" was intended to make a specific point religious organizations.  As with many things, I guess we have to be careful how far we take it.

Yes, I often hear that distinction made and have made it myself in the past.  The message you intended to communicate was not at all wrong.  Organizations, groups, leadership, and lay individuals are all susceptible to corruption and evil.  We've seen tons of examples of that from all faiths (and non-religious groups, for that matter).  It's certainly natural to want to draw lines to separate oneself from corruption.

My nitpick was with the apparent blanket condemnation of religion per se by redefining it as self-righteousness.  That's not at all what the word means either in common use or biblically.  Religion doesn't mean bad behavior, nor does it refer to an organization.  Ceding religion as a negative in an attempt to protect the good may seem like a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff, but I think "throwing out the baby and bathwater" might be the more appropriate idiom.

Finally - and most heinously - it encourages the kind of people who say stuff like: "I wouldn't say I'm religious, but I would say I am spiritual".

[Ron]

 Pb posted the dictionary definition earlier. What I think we have seen is a shift over the years in the particular way the word is used commonly. Still falling within the definition though.

I use the KJV, so I frequently look at the 1828 Webster Dictionary in order to get the common in use meaning of particular words from that era. Works well for the founding documents also.

Pb's definition overlaps with the 1828 but has a somewhat different focus.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary
Religion
RELIGION, noun relij'on. [Latin religio, from religo, to bind anew; re and ligo, to bind. This word seems originally to have signified an oath or vow to the gods, or the obligation of such an oath or vow, which was held very sacred by the Romans.]

1. religion in its most comprehensive sense, includes a belief in the being and perfections of God, in the revelation of his will to man, in man's obligation to obey his commands, in a state of reward and punishment, and in man's accountableness to God; and also true godliness or piety of life, with the practice of all moral duties. It therefore comprehends theology, as a system of doctrines or principles, as well as practical piety; for the practice of moral duties without a belief in a divine lawgiver, and without reference to his will or commands, is not religion

2. religion as distinct from theology, is godliness or real piety in practice, consisting in the performance of all known duties to God and our fellow men, in obedience to divine command, or from love to God and his law. James 1:26.

3. religion as distinct from virtue, or morality, consists in the performance of the duties we owe directly to God, from a principle of obedience to his will. Hence we often speak of religion and virtue, as different branches of one system, or the duties of the first and second tables of the law.

Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion

4. Any system of faith and worship. In this sense, religion comprehends the belief and worship of pagans and Mohammedans, as well as of christians; any religion consisting in the belief of a superior power or powers governing the world, and in the worship of such power or powers. Thus we speak of the religion of the Turks, of the Hindoos, of the Indians, etc. as well as of the christian religion We speak of false religion as well as of true religion

5. The rites of religion; in the plural.

[dogmush]

4. Any system of faith and worship. In this sense, religion comprehends the belief and worship of pagans and Mohammedans, as well as of christians; any religion consisting in the belief of a superior power or powers governing the world, and in the worship of such power or powers. Thus we speak of the religion of the Turks, of the Hindoos, of the Indians, etc. as well as of the christian religion We speak of false religion as well as of true religion

*expletive deleted*ck the Jews, I guess.  [/sarcasm]

[zxcvbob]

(looks like Simpsons)  Which one is Santa's Little Helper?

[Hawkmoon]

FIFY 

On the OP, I'm confused.  Are [some] Catholics claiming that their god would not accept that as a "real" baptism because of the wrong word, and that no matter the rest of their lives and soul, were they to stand before him in judgment he would find them unbaptized and cast them out?  Because a priest used the wrong pronoun when they were an infant?

Apparently one Catholic: Bishop Thomas Olmsted

[Pb]

You know, I am not a fan of the Catholic church, but even I find it hard to believe this story is accurate.  Can any Catholics chime in?

[230RN]

Pb asked,

"
You know, I am not a fan of the Catholic church, but even I find it hard to believe this story is accurate.  Can any Catholics chime in?
"

Not unusual for pickers of nits to try to gain either fifteen minutes (or an eternity) of fame by seizing on a micropoint and trying to make it a macropoint.  Or a different religion all their $own.

What did that earlier poster say?  "How many pinheads can dance on an angel's head?"

Afterthought:  Maybe it would be better to use the word "aspects" instead of "parts."

[MechAg94]

Yes, I often hear that distinction made and have made it myself in the past.  The message you intended to communicate was not at all wrong.  Organizations, groups, leadership, and lay individuals are all susceptible to corruption and evil.  We've seen tons of examples of that from all faiths (and non-religious groups, for that matter).  It's certainly natural to want to draw lines to separate oneself from corruption.

My nitpick was with the apparent blanket condemnation of religion per se by redefining it as self-righteousness.  That's not at all what the word means either in common use or biblically.  Religion doesn't mean bad behavior, nor does it refer to an organization.  Ceding religion as a negative in an attempt to protect the good may seem like a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff, but I think "throwing out the baby and bathwater" might be the more appropriate idiom.

Finally - and most heinously - it encourages the kind of people who say stuff like: "I wouldn't say I'm religious, but I would say I am spiritual".

I think I see where you are coming from.  I have heard "religion" used in  a secular context to mean all religions around the world quite often these days and I know there are plenty of non-Christians here.  Maybe that is why I don't tend to think of Christianity as my religion, but rather my Faith. 

I don't use the term "spiritual" in that context.  Too many hippy commune vibes on that one.