How to build walls for a walk-in vault?

[Fly320s]

I'm considering building a walk-in size vault instead of buying a large safe.  The area that I am considering in my basement is in a corner, has poured concrete floor and walls (on two sides), but is otherwise open.  The ceiling is unfinished and is 7'-8" from the concrete floor to the joists, so I should have plenty of room to work with.  The area to work with is about 5.5 feet wide by 12 feet long.  It's a new construction house, so modern codes apply to the foundation and any future constructions.

If I want to hang one of the "standard" type vault doors available from one of the safe manufacturers, such as Champion or AmSec, what type of wall is recommended or required?  Their websites say the vault doors can be hung on a standard door frame of appropiate width.  I'm leaning towards cinderblock walls with steel framing to bolt the door to which will yield better protection/security than standard wood framing.

So, any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks, y'all.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

http://www.het.brown.edu/people/hahn/vaults.html

- NF

[wingnutx]

block filled with concrete, or just poured concrete walls would be good.

The poured walls could have tons of rebar in them, which would make hammering through impractical.

[Car Knocker]

What's your plan for overhead protection?

[Jamisjockey]

What's your plan for overhead protection?

I say place steel plating across the bottom of the overhead floor joists.  That would stop anyone but the absolutely most determined criminal with alot of time to cut through it.

[Brad Johnson]

Cinder blocks with full-height pieces of rebar slipped into the holes, then filled with grout, will do fine. Get a piece of 1" plate a little smaller than the outside dimension of the walls. Once set in place you can bend the tops of the rebar over it and weld it down. If you really wanted to finish it out at that point, just form up a 2" lip around the top and pour it full of grout, too.

Brad

[280plus]

A 5.5' x 12' piece of 1" plate might be a tad heavy.

I'd suggest maybe 3 layers of a lighter gage plate. 3/8" sounds about right. The lamination would make it tougher to burn through with a torch plus you could use smaller pieces and offset the joints in each layer.  I'd probably support it from the bottom too so it don't make the floor sag over time. Just some thoughts...

[Car Knocker]

A 5.5' x 12' piece of 1" plate might be a tad heavy.


I'd suggest maybe 3 layers of a lighter gage plate. 3/8" sounds about right. The lamination would make it tougher to burn through with a torch plus you could use smaller pieces and offset the joints in each layer.  I'd probably support it from the bottom too so it don't make the floor sag over time. Just some thoughts...

1" plate would weigh about 2,700 pounds.
Three layers of 3/8" plate would weigh a bit over 3,300 pounds.

[280plus]

Yoiks!! That's even heavier than I thought!

[client32]

What's your plan for overhead protection?

If the rest of the house is concrete foundation, then over head is probably concrete with a lot of rebar.

[Jamisjockey]

What's your plan for overhead protection?

If the rest of the house is concrete foundation, then over head is probably concrete with a lot of rebar.

Not in a modern construction frame house with a basement.  The overhead is likely floor joists and flooring.  Punched through with a hammer or sawzall with ease.

[HForrest]

You could get a pretty kickass vault door like this http://www.diebold.com/dnpssec/financial/vaultandsafeproducts/titan_vault.htm from our favorite manufacturer of reliable election systems

[Car Knocker]

Given the narrow width of the room and the generous height to the joists, I think (if it were my project) I would have my local building supply company order in the 20-gauge corrugated steel panels (also known as composite floor deck) used to form the concrete floors in multi-story buildings, span the narrow direction and pour-in-place a 4" overhead.  If the ceiling in the safe room were limited to 7', it wouldn't be hard at all to pump the mix in through a basement window and vibrate it from below.  I'd slide in plenty of rebar also.

[ilbob]

I think that is far more practical than the plate idea. There is not a good way to get the plate in place.

I would be leery of hanging anything from the floor joists. Support the vault roof from the floor.

[Fly320s]

I think a poured concrete roof is out of the picture.  I could certainly get a concrete pumper hose in there, but I don't think I want to deal with pouring four inches of concrete into a eight inch space.  Not lots of room to work with.  Also, I would like to have overhead lighting in the vault.  The concrete will make working with the wiring and finishing the inside ceiling more work.

What do you think of a steel mesh, similar to chain-lnk fence, along the bottom of the floor joists secured to the top of the cinder block walls to provide some overhead protection?  It's not as secure as poured concrete, but it's better than dry wall.

I'm trying to do this myself for a reasonable amount of money.  If a large, high-quality safe will cost me about $2,000 installed, I'd like to keep the vault price around $3,, including the door.

Can the cinder block bet set directly onto the poured concrete floor?  Does the floor need to be drilled for re-bar to prevent the blocks from sliding or being pushed out of place?  Same for the wall?

Would laying a steel frame track on the floor and wall to secure the blocks be necessary or worth the effort?

[JAlexander]

I think it's a laudable goal, but I'm afraid the door itself is going to run into serious money.  The cheapest I've found has been about $1500 and the search has been fascinating.

http://www.brownsafe.com/categories/estate_vault_doors/vault_doors.htm

http://www.sportsmansteelsafes.com/defender.htm

On the other hand, you could go for style.

http://www.brownsafe.com/categories/747C6317-D604-7196-C17B0306082A4958/current_inventory.htm

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Bank-Vault-Door-Corn-Exchange-Bank-Spencer-NE_W0QQitemZ230038705577QQihZ013QQcategoryZ37910QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://www.brownsafe.com/categories/06F6B3B1-A4F2-3F81-68AAB77A64BABBE5/gallery.htm

I love the web.

James

[Brad Johnson]

Can the cinder block bet set directly onto the poured concrete floor?  Does the floor need to be drilled for re-bar to prevent the blocks from sliding or being pushed out of place?  Same for the wall?

If all you use is plain, unfilled cinder block you will probably be okay. If you start filling it or adding a bunch of heavy steel to the structure you may need to have someone come in and reinforce the slabe (drill it and pump in grout underneath).

Brad

[Car Knocker]

Steel mesh is easily cut by small bolt-cutters.  Think gun-safe with a chain-link or wire-mesh top - how secure would you feel about the contents?

Unreinforced and unfilled cinder block is easily breached with a hammer.  Spend $2 and buy a cinder block and see how little effort it takes to destroy it.

If you're just looking for something that's "better than drywall", stud-frame the walls and sheath with 1-1'8" plywood flooring screwed and glued to the studs.  For a little more protection, drill the studs at 8" intervals and slide in lengths of rebar.  For even more protection, fill the stud bays with concrete. Use a commercial steel entry door and frame from a real building supply store.  Install a basic alarm system.  A loud one.

If you want a vault, it has to be a vault on all six sides - anything less is a reinforced closet.

[Leatherneck]

I agree with Don. The vault, or "safe room" I'm building in at the cottage is a nine-foot high 20-ft diameter circle inside the foundation for the lighthouse, off one corner of the basement. I have maybe a 12-foot opening to frame, and I plan on simply making it a very sturdy plywood-on-studs wall with a steel entry door with a deadbolt. The vault doors seem too pricy to me. I'm not going to do much with the overhead beyond the 2x12 joists.

Inside, I plan to build in cabunetry that will serve the dual functions of gun display and reloading, plus serve as temporary refuge in case of severe weather or terrists or somesuch.

TC

[Bogie]

What I'm probably going to do...
 
HEAVY steel exterior-grade door - think "bad neighborhood liquor store back door." May do a second set of bars in front.

Walls and roof are going to be several layers of gypsum board/durock type stuff, with reinforcing chicken-wire type stuff in between, glued together. Studs and beams are probably going to be 8" on center. Interior height will likely be about 6'5" or so, so I can get the stuff on top.
 
It's also going to be hidden.
 
Yeah, it won't be as good as a "real" safe, but hey...

[client32]

What's your plan for overhead protection?

If the rest of the house is concrete foundation, then over head is probably concrete with a lot of rebar.

Not in a modern construction frame house with a basement.  The overhead is likely floor joists and flooring.  Punched through with a hammer or sawzall with ease.

OK.  I was going by the way we did basements for houses.  We always poured concrete over the top of it.

After re-reading the initial post, I should have known when Fly mentioned the joists.  We always used the concrete ceiling as the finished ceiling.

[HankB]

Make the room hidden, so a casual thief won't even know it's there. Put a good gun safe inside the hidden room.

It's difficult to add a real vault to existing construction.

Here's a thought - I've heard about Federal programs that provide a tax write-off if you add a tornado-resistant room to your home . . . you might look into this as a possible source of funding.

[roo_ster]

Here's a thought - I've heard about Federal programs that provide a tax write-off if you add a tornado-resistant room to your home . . . you might look into this as a possible source of funding.

What HankB wrote.