The evils of Ethanol

[Scout26]

Proving once again that .gov can do no right. And ethanol is bad, wrapped in worse, surrounded by evil.  There is no good reason for it.  It costs to to produce then it can sell for, requires more energy to produce then it generates, produces more "greenhouse gases" then it 's suppose to reduce, driven up the price of food and fuel, and has spurred the destruction of native habitat to plant corn, on marginal at best, farmland.

It needs to be killed and a stake driven through it's heart.     And before any says anything, keep in mind that I live in Illinois and half of my family is corn country in South-Central Illinois.

http://news.yahoo.com/secret-dirty-cost-obamas-green-051200204.html

[AZRedhawk44]

then

THAN.

[MillCreek]

Why do you hate family farms and the study yeomanry of the Midwest?

[Balog]

The biggest corporate whores / welfare queens in america are the big farmers.

[charby]

Yep, a few big newspapers in Iowa today reported about the environmentalists and scientists changing their minds on corn based ethanol.

[charby]

The biggest corporate whores / welfare queens in america are the big farmers.

Proof?

[Kingcreek]

Ethanol.
My neighbors love it. My motors hate it.
I live in the middle of corn country too and I have learned to keep my ethanol opinions to myself.

And another thing, it's ruined the pheasant and quail hunting in the Midwest!

[Balog]

Proof?

The annual farm bill? http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/agriculture/subsidies

[Brad Johnson]

Queue scout26's monthly ethanol rant.  

The biggest corporate whores / welfare queens in america are the big farmers.

*sniff sniff*  Ahhh, the smell of ignorance... wrapped in fail... and fried in dumba$$.  

Brad

[Gewehr98]

Having family here in the corn belt who sell some of their crops to fuel distilleries nearby, I'm not qualified to comment. 

It would be ok amongst the ETOH haters here, I'm certain, if those same crops made whiskey and bourbon to fuel other things, though.   

[charby]

The annual farm bill? http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/agriculture/subsidies

You do know that most of the farm bill's monies goes to food stamps and stuff like that?

[Balog]

Queue scout26's monthly ethanol rant.  



*sniff sniff*  Ahhh, the smell of ignorance... wrapped in fail... and fried in dumba$$.  

Brad

That's a polite an erudite refutation of my assertion. Oh wait, no it's not. Thanks for playing though.

Do you deny that farmer's receive many billions in subsidies every year? Is the Farm Bill Congress passes just an elaborate ruse to turn people against the long suffering farmers?

[AZRedhawk44]

Having family here in the corn belt who sell some of their crops to fuel distilleries nearby, I'm not qualified to comment. 

It would be ok amongst the ETOH haters here, I'm certain, if those same crops made whiskey and bourbon to fuel other things, though.   

Or helped lovely beeves to grow into steaks on my plate.

But the problem is the compulsory element of ethanol gas.

If it's actually worth it, put it out on the free market.  I can buy 10% ethanol "enriched" gas, or I can buy 100% real gas with no ethanol.  And the market will decide what's superior.  

But with federal mandates, coupled with State or county mandates, freedom of choice is eliminated in favor of whomever has the lobby that bribes the best.

[charby]

That's a polite an erudite refutation of my assertion. Oh wait, no it's not. Thanks for playing though.

Do you deny that farmer's receive many billions in subsidies every year? Is the Farm Bill Congress passes just an elaborate ruse to turn people against the long suffering farmers?

Do you know that the subsidy program was created so farmers will produce food, even when the market doesn't pay enough to cover the cost of growing the crops.

Look at this year, corn is at $4.20 something a bushel and it costs the average farmer $5.50 to produce a bushel of corn this year. $7 corn a few years ago really screwed the producer over because all the input producers, like fertilizer companies raised their costs to capitalize on the higher grain costs.

[Boomhauer]

I don't give a *expletive deleted*it what you do with ethanol or how much it's subsidized if you'll keep the *expletive deleted*it out of my goddamn gasoline.

Sick and *expletive deleted*ing tired of fixing *expletive deleted*it *expletive deleted*ed up by it.

[charby]

I don't give a *expletive deleted* what you do with ethanol or how much it's subsidized if you'll keep the *expletive deleted* out of my goddamn gasoline.

Sick and *expletive deleted* tired of fixing *expletive deleted* *expletive deleted*ed up by it.

Besides 2 cycle engines, what has it broken?

[Balog]

Do you know that the subsidy program was created so farmers will produce food, even when the market doesn't pay enough to cover the cost of growing the crops.

Look at this year, corn is at $4.20 something a bushel and it costs the average farmer $5.50 to produce a bushel of corn this year. $7 corn a few years ago really screwed the producer over because all the input producers, like fertilizer companies raised their costs to capitalize on the higher grain costs.

I'm crushed at the thought that the poor widdle farmers would need to react to market demands instead of having the feds subsidize them.

How do you feel about the bailouts and subsidies given to banks/automakers etc?

[Gewehr98]

I see it differently.  Compulsory sucks, yes.  The industry needs an incentive to get away from the 800-lb. gorilla dominating the scene, and not by gubmint decree.

We're a petroleum-driven economy.  Your day-to-day life would be absolute crap without petroleum, and not just for fuel.

John D. Rockefeller, were he still alive, would fight the ethanol and other alternative fuel industries tooth and nail.

Corn ethanol is something that our founding fathers introduced, but since their horses didn't run too well on the stuff, they drank it instead.

It's an easy feedstock for biomass conversion to fuel, since the technology is so old.  When applying for a job at the fuel distillery in Monroe, WI, I saw their pilot plant for switchgrass and other feedstocks.

IOW, corn isn't the be-all, end-all of ethanol production.  I expect at some point it'll be fermented and distilled for just bourbon again, as the fuel distilleries transition to other biomass feedstocks.

Big Oil ain't gonna be happy about that.  But if the folks in Ickystan and the Saudi peninsula decide they like us even less down the road, we aren't left holding the bag.  

Which reminds me, I gotta brush the snow off of the solar panels out on the deck...

[charby]

I'm crushed at the thought that the poor widdle farmers would need to react to market demands instead of having the feds subsidize them.

How do you feel about the bailouts and subsidies given to banks/automakers etc?

Food is more important to national security then you realize.

I didn't agree with some of the subsidies/bailouts but talking with a few people in the finance industry about it, much of it had to be done or we would have been *expletive deleted*ed. So *expletive deleted*ed you wouldn't be posting right now because the odds were high many of us would have been standing in breadlines and nice things like that.

[Gewehr98]

Balog, how are you at growing your own foodstuffs?

My relatives have ridden the farm bankruptcy edge too often for me to remember.

If they get paid top dollar for corn as fuel vs. feed, how is that their problem?  

Any other time, it would be Free Market Rules vs. Communism/Socialism.

Now it's different?  Farm Aid wasn't that long ago...

[Brad Johnson]

That's a polite an erudite refutation of my assertion. Oh wait, no it's not. Thanks for playing though.

Do you deny that farmer's receive many billions in subsidies every year? Is the Farm Bill Congress passes just an elaborate ruse to turn people against the long suffering farmers?

No, I support that your assertions are ignorant, asinine, and reek of liberalistic class-warfare snobbery, but you can keep digging if you like.

Brad

[MillCreek]

It's an easy feedstock for biomass conversion to fuel, since the technology is so old.  When applying for a job at the fuel distillery in Monroe, WI, I saw their pilot plant for switchgrass and other feedstocks.

I have not checked lately, but I wonder how things are going in terms of the economic production of ethanol via the switchgrass and other cellulose sources?  As I recall, things have been 'close' for the past few years, but I wonder if we are there yet.

[Gewehr98]

Ethanol raises hell with internal combustion engines that aren't designed to use it.  Seals, fuel lines, O-rings, etc.

Diaphragm carburetors on lawnmowers are another example.  I killed my old Snapper mower because I didn't buy non-ethanol gas.

Most of the Premium fuels here are non-ethanol.  That's what I fill my mower/weed eater/chainsaw cans with these days.   The price difference for such implements is negligible.

If your engine is set up for it, like my ancient 2001 Chevy Flex-Fuel S-10, there's no damage.  

[Gewehr98]

Millcreek, "close" is a moving target.

The pressure to keep going with these alternative fuels is very much dependent on how much pain we feel at the pump.

It's just like Detroit.  When the Arab Oil Embargo of '74 hit, Detroit responded by making more fuel-efficient vehicles.

Once that crisis was over, the land yachts and Texas Cadillacs started coming off the assembly lines en masse again.

It's cyclical, and the juggernaut that's Detroit is slow to swing the rudder over hard when it happens.  And they bristle when CAFE rules start pinching them.

You can call it market-driven, too.  Cheap gas?  Let's buy a Hummer H2!   $4.00/gallon?  Time to buy a Toyota Yaris!

Same goes for the alternative fuels folks.  We have a company here called Virent Technologies (http://www.virent.com) who are doing great things with biomass fuel conversions - I'd love to go work for them!

When the price of crude was high not too long ago, they were getting Federal grants, as well as big chunks of money from Honda, etc.

Now, you barely hear a peep out of them. 

[charby]

I have not checked lately, but I wonder how things are going in terms of the economic production of ethanol via the switchgrass and other cellulose sources?  As I recall, things have been 'close' for the past few years, but I wonder if we are there yet.

They have been building plants for fuel from cellulose for the past couple years not far from where I live. Farmers have been bailing up cornstocks and selling them to the DuPont plant.