British and French Subs Collide in Atlantic

[Ben]

This has got to be exceptionally rare. Input from any of you current or retired bubbleheads? Even unclassified tech should be able to let you know there's a giant metal cigar somewhere close by.

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090216/ap_on_re_eu/eu_britain_sub_collision_5

British, French nuclear subs collide in Atlantic
By DAVID STRINGER, Associated Press Writer David Stringer, Associated Press Writer 1 hr 15 mins ago

LONDON – Nuclear-armed submarines from Britain and France collided in the Atlantic Ocean earlier this month, authorities acknowledged Monday — touching off new concerns about the safety of the world's deep sea missile fleets.

The HMS Vanguard, the oldest of Britain's current nuclear-armed submarine fleet, and the French Le Triomphant submarine, which was also carrying nuclear missiles, both suffered minor damage in the collision. No crew members were reported injured.

Britain's most senior sailor, First Sea Lord, Adm. Jonathon Band, said the underwater crash posed no risk to the safety of the submarines' nuclear reactors and nuclear missiles. But he offered no explanation of how the rare incident might have occurred.

"The two submarines came into contact at very low speed," Band said in a statement. "Both submarines remained safe."

France's defense ministry said the ballistic missile submarines had been carrying out routine patrols when they collided.

"They briefly came into contact at a very low speed while submerged. There were no injuries. Neither their nuclear deterrence missions nor their safety were affected," France's defense ministry said Monday in a statement.

The Vanguard — which is capable of carrying up to 16 nuclear-armed Trident missiles — was towed back to a submarine base in Scotland with visible dents and scrapes, the BBC reported.

The Le Triomphant suffered damaged to a sonar dome in the front of the submarine but returned under its own power to its base on L'Ile Longue on France's western tip, according to the French military.

Neither France nor Britain would confirm the exact date of the collision, but said it took place earlier this month. France issued a brief statement Feb. 6 saying the Le Triomphant had struck "a submerged object" that was probably a shipping container.

Naval experts were amazed by the collision.

"This really shouldn't have happened at all," said Stephen Saunders, a retired British Royal Navy commodore and the editor of Jane's Fighting Ships. "It's a very serious incident, and I find it quite extraordinary."

He said while NATO countries let each other know what general area of the Atlantic they are operating in, neither submarine would have had a precise position for the other.

[K Frame]

Oops.

Two captains just ended their careers.

I'm surprised the French sub didn't surrender to the British sub, though.

[Manedwolf]

The HMS Vanguard, the oldest of Britain's current nuclear-armed submarine fleet, and the French Le Triomphant submarine, which was also carrying nuclear missiles, both suffered minor damage in the collision. No crew members were reported injured.

"The two submarines came into contact at very low speed," Band said in a statement. "Both submarines remained safe."]"The two submarines came into contact at very low speed," Band said in a statement. "Both submarines remained safe."

Sooo...an elderly British pensioner ran into a French tourist in a low-speed collision?

I thought that happened all the time on the roads there? 

[taurusowner]

I doubt this is rare.  I'm pretty sure this stuff happened somewhat often between us and the Soviets.  We're only hearing about this incident because France and Britain aren't enemies.

[Boomhauer]

We've hit at least one Soviet sub...I remember reading that from Blind Man's Bluff. A fascinating book, by the way. I need to reread it. 

[Manedwolf]

We're only hearing about this incident because France and Britain aren't enemies.

And it's a good thing! Submarines can't deliver broadsides, and it's difficult to grapple and board with lines...

[Ben]

I'm pretty sure this stuff happened somewhat often between us and the Soviets.

So would this be the result of war games or other exercises where the subs needed to be in very close proximity? I've worked with scientific ROVs, and using simple transponders and Winfrog software, can tell you within a few meters where the ROV is in relation to the boat, so from that standpoint I'm perplexed at how they could collide unless they were trying to maneuver in close proximity for one purpose or another.

[roo_ster]

We've hit at least one Soviet sub...I remember reading that from Blind Man's Bluff. A fascinating book, by the way. I need to reread it. 

Yup.

[Gowen]

The french sub was trying to sneak up on the Brit and got a little too close.  I only deduce this from where the damage is on each vessel.

Or, the french captain had a snoot full and tried to pass on the left.

[Balog]

Aren't missile subs designed to be super hard to detect?

[Ben]

The french sub was trying to sneak up on the Brit and got a little too close.

Crazy Ivan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

[AJ Dual]

Everyone is over-thinking this..

The British sub was driving on the left, obviously...

[Laurent du Var]

Oops.

Two captains just ended their careers.

I'm surprised the French sub didn't surrender to the British sub, though.

Oh, we only surrender to ennemies of the USA, afterwards you'll have to bail us out and
we won't be thankfull ! 

[Boomhauer]

Aren't missile subs designed to be super hard to detect?

Yes.

[taurusowner]

Yes.

And when you have 2 of them drifting around guessing where the other is, collisions don't seem that unlikely.

[Cromlech]

Ya, this is something of an embarrasment. I wonder what the guys over at the Rum Ration and ARRSE make of all this. Scratch that, they are probably busting their sides with LAWLS.

 edit:
 Nuclear chicken

RN and French nuke subs collide. Its a pretty big sea really so no excuses for having a prang really. I reckon they were playing chicken.

"Force de Frappe" though! What a brilliant name for a unit, and so appropriate for a tin full of matelots on a 70 day cruise. Maybe our nuke fleet should be "Stroker Squadron"?

[ilbob]

these things are dead silent when they want to be so if they are just drifting around under the ocean, they would have no way to know another very quiet sub is close by.

[RoadKingLarry]

I spent 12 years inthe "Silent Service".  In my opinion
*No way are we getting the full story.
*The Captains both screwed up.
*My guess but probably involved in some sort of execrise.

As far as collisions at sea I know of 2 "brushing" incidents that happened in the early '80s in the pacific. I was freinds with a tech on one of the boats and had to endure special training about the other incident.

[Gewehr98]

Probably an honest mistake.

I did it all the time when I flew with the Navy P-3 crews and they kept using "port" and "starboard".   

[seeker_two]

Everyone is over-thinking this..

The British sub was driving on the left, obviously...

IIRC, the French drive on the same side of the road that we do...but the British do not. That could explain a lot.....

...either that, or the French sub (after being out at sea so long) was feeling a little romantical toward the curvy Brit and....

[Werewolf]

The Vanguard — which is capable of carrying up to 16 nuclear-armed Trident missiles — was towed back to a submarine base in Scotland with visible dents and scrapes, the BBC reported.

The Le Triomphant suffered damaged to a sonar dome in the front of the submarine but returned under its own power to its base on L'Ile Longue on France's western tip, according to the French military.

Seems to me:

The French rear-ended the Brits. French sub - sonar dome damage. Brit sub had to be towed home.

Probably - as another OP postulated - the French were sneaking around trying to find the Brits. Had a weak contact and running up the course the Brits were on. Hit the Brit's prop.

That is very possible considering that Boomers are so freaking quiet and from the evidence they were on some kind of exercise.

While serving on USS Sandlance in late 70's we quite often played with other US subs and got really close at times. We did the same with the Soviets. Tracked an Alfa (I think that's what it was - may have been some other type) in the med once for about a week. Stayed inside his baffles pretty much the whole time. We were finally ordered to drop the track and head for La Madellana.  El Kapitain was a real clown. So before we dropped off the Alfa's track we maneuvered to within a few hundred yards directly behind him. The captain lit off the active sonar and sent one single ping at the sucker. That alfa took off so fast that we could hear the sound of his prop from inside the boat without the aid of sonar.

Point is that if that Alfa had ever gone to all stop and shut off his main reactor pumps we may have run right up his ass.

I can see the French doing that to the Brits.

[MechAg94]

I was curious about that also as they said both subs were missile subs.  Do the boomers typically do the same exercises of tracking other subs? 

[RoadKingLarry]

Werewolf sounds like we sailed the same waters in the same class of boat I was on USS Flying Fish in the late '80s. Ah La Madellana, it brings back such memories(not good ones, but memoris just the same).

[Werewolf]

Werewolf sounds like we sailed the same waters in the same class of boat I was on USS Flying Fish in the late '80s. Ah La Madellana, it brings back such memories(not good ones, but memoris just the same).

USS Sandlance - SSN-660 was a sturgeon class boat. It's razor blades now.

I liked La Maddelana. Easy access to Sardinia's emerald coast. An airport about 30 miles south and we could fly to just about anywhere in Italy for $30 or so. Very provincial, good food, cheap lodging, nice beaches and friendly people. And Palau, the town on Sardinia right across from LaMaddelana was a pretty decent place to hang out too considering it's small size.

Fond memories for me. If I were a rich man I'd give serious thought to having a summer home there.

[BobR]

I did it all the time when I flew with the Navy P-3 crews and they kept using "port" and "starboard".   

I tried to keep it easy for the AF types who flew with us. I would say look towards the side with the red wingtip light, or green light, depending on which way I wanted him to turn his head. After a while all I had to say was, red light or green light and they would look. 

bob