Mobs, liberals and racism

[MicroBalrog]

Do you think the only people who own guns are gun culture types?

I have news: There are millions of people who own a shotgun, or a rifle for home defense, or maybe have a pistol permit and who are not people like you and me who have guns as a hobby. Sure, they are less common in urban environments (although I am not sure about cities like Nashville). But gun ownership is not - and should not be - tied to ideology.

Guns are a useful tool. This is the message we need to get to people everywhere: firearms are a tool. Get one.

This story is not an illustration of an epic social problem that requires great statesmanlike wisdom to resolve.

Guns have helped to reduce the prevalence of practically violent crime in America - rape, murder, burglary - over the last 15 years. All of those issues which were brought up - political, legal, etc. - apply as well to a man shooting a 'disadvantaged youth' in home defense as they would here. And yet the rates of rape, murder, and hot burglary fell consistently, and people defended themselves actively. This is just the same, except with a more target-rich environment.

[brimic]

You're not getting it. The Libertarian/Right "Gun Culture Types" don't live/work or go to those neighborhoods if they can help it.

Ayup. I work in that very area, I wouldn't if I could find something better.

Do you think the only people who own guns are gun culture types?

I have news: There are millions of people who own a shotgun, or a rifle for home defense, or maybe have a pistol permit and who are not people like you and me who have guns as a hobby. Sure, they are less common in urban environments (although I am not sure about cities like Nashville). But gun ownership is not - and should not be - tied to ideology.

In the area in Milwaukee that we are talking about, very few people (most are rabidly anti-gun) other than criminals own guns. A household is far more likely to own a water bong than a firearm of any kind.  Ownership should not be tied to ideology, but it this case it really is. The whole milwaukee area is very deeply segregated by political/racial/ideological lines.

[AJ Dual]

Do you think the only people who own guns are gun culture types?

I have news: There are millions of people who own a shotgun, or a rifle for home defense, or maybe have a pistol permit and who are not people like you and me who have guns as a hobby. Sure, they are less common in urban environments (although I am not sure about cities like Nashville). But gun ownership is not - and should not be - tied to ideology.

Guns are a useful tool. This is the message we need to get to people everywhere: firearms are a tool. Get one.

This story is not an illustration of an epic social problem that requires great statesmanlike wisdom to resolve.

Guns have helped to reduce the prevalence of practically violent crime in America - rape, murder, burglary - over the last 15 years. All of those issues which were brought up - political, legal, etc. - apply as well to a man shooting a 'disadvantaged youth' in home defense as they would here. And yet the rates of rape, murder, and hot burglary fell consistently, and people defended themselves actively. This is just the same, except with a more target-rich environment.

The only thing that will change this is the victims themselves, if the experience teaches them... more like hits them over the head, literally, and drags them, kicking and screaming, to the conclusion they should be armed.

Nothing and no one else will do it. The whole anti-gun thing and "violence solves nothing" attitude that's prevalent with a Milwaukee east-side Liberal trancends logic and it's part of their "identity politics". They don't support gun control and oppose CCW because they think it's harmful. Ultimately, they simply oppose it because they feel it's "bad" without meaningful and articulate reasons as to why. Mainly they oppose it because they know the people they oppose politically want it.

If this had happened next year when WI CCW is in effect, and an armed CCW'er had brandished, or actually fired a few shots, saving the rest of these white women from a beating, I can guarantee you that they'd be more horrified at the CCW'er, than they'd be at the mob of black teens looking to beat them.

[brimic]

If this had happened next year when WI CCW is in effect, and an armed CCW'er had brandished, or actually fired a few shots, saving the rest of these white women from a beating, I can guarantee you that they'd be more horrified at the CCW'er, than they'd be at the mob of black teens looking to beat them.

Well a CCW permit is a hunting license for urban black youth dontchaknow.

[AJ Dual]

Well a CCW permit is a hunting license for urban black youth dontchaknow.

Must bite tongue... going any further runs the risk of being so non-APS as to get me into severe trouble.

[brimic]

Must bite tongue... going any further runs the risk of being so non-APS as to get me into severe trouble.

Just paraphrasing what the milwaukee raicebaiters have been saying

[Balog]

This occured in Milwaukee. A simple Google search brought up a gun store in Milwaukee selling Bushmaster rifles. As for being sued, a Make My Day law is even now in the works in Minnesota.

Even in California you can get some pretty useful stuff.

You think you can fill out a 4473, call in a NICS check, buy everything, load the mags, and respond to the scene before the mod breaks up?

Do you think the only people who own guns are gun culture types?

I have news: There are millions of people who own a shotgun, or a rifle for home defense, or maybe have a pistol permit and who are not people like you and me who have guns as a hobby. Sure, they are less common in urban environments (although I am not sure about cities like Nashville). But gun ownership is not - and should not be - tied to ideology.

Guns are a useful tool. This is the message we need to get to people everywhere: firearms are a tool. Get one.

This story is not an illustration of an epic social problem that requires great statesmanlike wisdom to resolve.

Guns have helped to reduce the prevalence of practically violent crime in America - rape, murder, burglary - over the last 15 years. All of those issues which were brought up - political, legal, etc. - apply as well to a man shooting a 'disadvantaged youth' in home defense as they would here. And yet the rates of rape, murder, and hot burglary fell consistently, and people defended themselves actively. This is just the same, except with a more target-rich environment.

Who said anything about ideology? In non-residential neighborhoods in large cities, it is very uncommon to have a rifle readily available. A few trunk guns, maybe. But running to your car to get the secured rifle out takes time, draws attention to you (potentially anyway), and is not generally going to be practical.

As for the bolded part, maybe you and I agree with that, but the prosecutors in large cities such as we are discussing probably do not. The MSM do not. The gang bangin' buddies of the flash mobbers certainly do not. There are a lot of practical issues you are ignoring in your efforts to turn this to your ideological advantage.

[AJ Dual]

The main problem with 'Trunk Guns' is unless you've got loved ones in great peril, or people to whom you feel you have an exceptional duty to protect, by the time you've reached your car, why not just get in and drive away from the trouble?

Unless my family is in peril, I'm not returning to the scene of a crime or altercation or mass-shooting or worse in progress, rifle or not.

Walt Whitman TX A&M tower sniper, where civilians kept him pinned down, or the Jonesborough(?) school shooting where the Vice Principal ran to his car off-grounds and retrieved an M1 carbine and stopped the shooting are about the only two instances where "trunk guns" were of use I can think of.

If there's more, I'd like to know. I like the idea of the trunk gun, under the "better to have and not need, than need and not have" premise, but realistically, I'm hard pressed to think of a scenario where I'm actually going to employ one without doing something extraordinarily foolhardy and dangerous.

[MicroBalrog]

As for the bolded part, maybe you and I agree with that, but the prosecutors in large cities such as we are discussing probably do not. The MSM do not. The gang bangin' buddies of the flash mobbers certainly do not. There are a lot of practical issues you are ignoring in your efforts to turn this to your ideological advantage.

What ideological advantage?

[brimic]

The main problem with 'Trunk Guns' is unless you've got loved ones in great peril, or people to whom you feel you have an exceptional duty to protect, by the time you've reached your car, why not just get in and drive away from the trouble?

Unless my family is in peril, I'm not returning to the scene of a crime or altercation or mass-shooting or worse in progress, rifle or not.

Walt Whitman TX A&M tower sniper, where civilians kept him pinned down, or the Jonesborough(?) school shooting where the Vice Principal ran to his car off-grounds and retrieved an M1 carbine and stopped the shooting are about the only two instances where "trunk guns" were of use I can think of.

If there's more, I'd like to know. I like the idea of the trunk gun, under the "better to have and not need, than need and not have" premise, but realistically, I'm hard pressed to think of a scenario where I'm actually going to employ one without doing something extraordinarily foolhardy and dangerous.

My reason for a trunk gun is for the very unlikely event that a lot of bad things coincide with eathother in one day on a 10x bigger scale than they've happened seperately- rioting (can and has happened), transportation routes cut off (once a month phenomenon for me), power gets cut/natural disaster (least likely event, but the one that would trigger the other two).
It makes me feel a lot better that if I had to, could pick up my rucksack and carbine and could walk out of the city. I have a work buddy that lives near me that has the same plan and preparation- and uses the same ammo

[AJ Dual]

What ideological advantage?

I'm not sure "ideological advantage" here is exactly the right choice of words. I can't speak for Balog, but you're displaying a peculiar obstinate naiveté about the realities and aftermath of a racially loaded self defense situation in America.

1. The whites in this particular area of Milwaukee will probably never be pro gun or pro CCW.

2. Even if there is a successful self-defense shooting by a white CCW'er, or someone open carrying a rifle, you're refusing to recognize the completely devastating reaction of the media, the police, the prosecutor, the community, and the aggressor's surviving family. Even if the shooter prevails legally because ultimately the law is on their side, this process can still mean months, if not years of having one's life turned upside down, and cause you to incur expensive legal costs and any other number of major life disruptions.

The natural cost/benefit calculations that anyone who actually has enough independent thought that they might use a firearm for self defense means they just won't be in that neighborhood in the first place.

My reason for a trunk gun is for the very unlikely event that a lot of bad things coincide with eathother in one day on a 10x bigger scale than they've happened seperately- rioting (can and has happened), transportation routes cut off (once a month phenomenon for me), power gets cut/natural disaster (least likely event, but the one that would trigger the other two).
It makes me feel a lot better that if I had to, could pick up my rucksack and carbine and could walk out of the city. I have a work buddy that lives near me that has the same plan and preparation- and uses the same ammo

I guess that sums up my feeling on the "trunk gun" as well.

My thoughts were more directed at the idea Micro alluded to by saying someone should buy a Bushmaster/AR-15 type rifle at the Shooter's Shop in the face of the late night fireworks/park mob.

He's just not getting that someone walking around downtown Milwaukee with a slung AR-15 would have been the "bigger deal" than the mob in the eyes of the city government and the MPD, and the local (law abiding) residents, no matter what WI law says about open carry.

I don't want to put words into his mouth, but I feel he's implying people should walk around Milwaukee's ghetto and borderline areas with rifles and "tame it".

[Balog]

What ideological advantage?

You have a narrative that you try to fit world events into, to satisfy your positions. Perhaps ideology was the wrong word.

[Perd Hapley]

My thoughts were more directed at the idea Micro alluded to by saying someone should buy a Bushmaster/AR-15 type rifle at the Shooter's Shop in the face of the late night fireworks/park mob.

I think there was a misunderstanding when Balog said that urbanites would not have the rifles "readily available." Balog meant on their person; MB thought that meant available for purchase.

[MicroBalrog]

I don't want to put words into his mouth, but I feel he's implying people should walk around Milwaukee's ghetto and borderline areas with rifles and "tame it".

No, I'm not outright insane. I'm going to post in detail in a moment.

[MicroBalrog]

1. It's notable that those 'incidents' are not restricted to Milwaukee – that table also lists events that happened in Nashville and other such places not known for an anti-gun bias.

2. There was a time – and I think is still done in some places – where businesses kept a shotgun or some other longarm on the premises to fend off robberies etc. We sometimes still see this happen – sort of like this, this, this, and similar events.

Perhaps not in Minnesota, but maybe in Nashville or Las Vegas I think you'd see someone eventually run into such a store owner and get shot. If you are a store owner attacked by a dozen thugs you will not think about how bad it will look in the press if you shoot them.

Right now, these events are extremely rare – that site lists maybe a dozen in 2010, in a country of 300 million. The chance this will happen at a specific store is really small – and most of these are less 'violent attack' and more 'organized shoplifting'.

[HankB]

  . . . The chance this will happen at a specific store is really small – and most of these are less 'violent attack' and more 'organized shoplifting'. 

Most people - including those licensed to carry concealed weapons - are NOT going to intervene in a shoplifting incident at a store where they're a customer. What I see happening is that some of the shoplifters will see what they think is an easy mark in the store, get caught up in the excitement of their lawbreaking . . . and decide to assault the wrong (some would say right) person.

Eventually it's going to happen. OR they'll hit a privately owned store or franchise where the owner IS armed. And one or more of the mob is going to suffer some major consequences.

[MicroBalrog]

Most people - including those licensed to carry concealed weapons - are NOT going to intervene in a shoplifting incident at a store where they're a customer.

A shoplifting accident? No, but a shop owner is not going to shoot people over shoplifting either.

But if people are assaulting the shop owner and his life/limb is actually threatened?

[Monkeyleg]

Perhaps not in Minnesota, but maybe in Nashville or Las Vegas I think you'd see someone eventually run into such a store owner and get shot. If you are a store owner attacked by a dozen thugs you will not think about how bad it will look in the press if you shoot them.

If something like this happened here in this part of AL, and a store owner shot some of the punks, I'm pretty confident saying that he wouldn't be charged, and he'd have the support of the community, including blacks.

From what I've seen in the past year, people like it when citizens shoot criminals.

[AJ Dual]

There was a long period of several years in WI where there were a few notable self-defense cases with illegal CCW that wen't un-prosecuted.

An elderly man, getting gas in WI between Milwaukee and Chicago was accosted shot a "youth" who tried to beat him/strong arm rob him.

There was also a Pizza delivery driver who shot someone attempting to rob him in the ghetto with a toy pistol (I believe). This was his SECOND defensive CCW use.

However, in both these cases, the State Supreme Court was one decision away from making WI like Vermont, due to their frustration at the Legislature's inaction (in reality the previous Governor's vetoes) over CCW, and how it ran up against the WI State Constitution's very clearly worded RKBA amendment.

So the DA's and ADA's and liberal lower level circuit court judges were hesitant to send up any more case law.

Now that it's passed, I suspect the more liberal ones who don't like CCW, RKBA, and armed self-defense in general will actually be in "payback" mode for awhile over any self-defense shootings that happen in the large liberal metro areas of WI. For awhile at least. While they won't be issuing any firearm charges, they'll be going over the shootings with a fine toothed comb looking for any excuse to charge the shooter.

[cosine]

...

Now that it's passed, I suspect the more liberal ones who don't like CCW, RKBA, and armed self-defense in general will actually be in "payback" mode for awhile over any self-defense shootings that happen in the large liberal metro areas of WI. For awhile at least. While they won't be issuing any firearm charges, they'll be going over the shootings with a fine toothed comb looking for any excuse to charge the shooter.

And Eugene Kane will write about it, and Carole Meekins will put on her "this is serious business" face and pull out her "I mean it, this is serious business" voice when talking about it on the evening news...

It will be interesting to see the media's reaction.

[KD5NRH]

Walt Whitman TX A&M tower sniper, where civilians kept him pinned down, or the Jonesborough(?) school shooting where the Vice Principal ran to his car off-grounds and retrieved an M1 carbine and stopped the shooting are about the only two instances where "trunk guns" were of use I can think of.

How about the one where AJ Dual gets buttstroked repeatedly for posting the equivalent of this paper?










http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

[lee n. field]

this paper?

Tell me that's not, you know, real.

[longeyes]

Flash mobs are war parties.  Tribal behavior tends to produce similar behavior.  This isn't going to be about one or two armed people shooting back when attacked.  Just a prediction.

[zxcvbob]

The "youths" were black, and the beating victims white. In its editorial on the beatings, the Journal Sentinel issued the usual call for the police to work with the "community", whoever or whatever that might be. It also said the following:

"Some witnesses and residents questioned whether race played a role in the looting and beatings. Witnesses say the attacks were unprovoked and that the victims were white and the attackers were African-American. But we'd agree with Flynn, who said crime is colorblind. Flynn also downplayed the notion that police tried to minimize the severity of the incidents. Flynn said that initially police weren't fully informed of the details."

It'll only be a racially motivated Hate Crimeâ„¢ when one of the white victims fights back and kills-or-maims some of the "poor disadvantaged yoots" attackers.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

Tell me that's not, you know, real.

It is awesome.