Author Topic: What's up here?  (Read 8766 times)

tincat2

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What's up here?
« on: May 30, 2009, 01:06:39 AM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090529/ap_on_re_us/us_pharmacy_shooting

may need more info, but sounds like murder to me.

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2009, 01:13:54 AM »
Not a good shoot, and I wouldn't be supporting the guy if the news story is accurate.

Still, why does the NAACP have to be involved? Are they going to speak out against the punks who started this by committing armed robbery, or just go after the white guy?

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2009, 01:43:12 AM »
As much as I think the guy is wrong, I have a harder time supporting criminals.

I have to side with the guy if only for that reason.  I know its not what the law says, but it's whats right.

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2009, 03:42:15 AM »
Oklahoma druggist arrested for killing holdup man


AP – Jerome Ersland sits inside the courtroom watched by Oklahoma County sheriff deputies during a bond hearing …

By TIM TALLEY, Associated Press Writer Tim Talley, Associated Press Writer – Fri May 29, 7:51 pm ET

OKLAHOMA CITY – Confronted by two holdup men, pharmacist Jerome Ersland pulled a gun, shot one of them in the head and chased the other away. Then, in a scene recorded by the drugstore's security camera, he went behind the counter, got another gun, and pumped five more bullets into the wounded teenager as he lay on the floor.

Now Ersland has been charged with first-degree murder in a case that has stirred a furious debate over vigilante justice and self-defense and turned the pharmacist into something of a folk hero.

Ersland, 57, is free on $100,000 bail, courtesy of an anonymous donor. He has won praise from the pharmacy's owner, received an outpouring of cards, letters and checks from supporters, and become the darling of conservative talk radio.

"His adrenaline was going. You're just thinking of survival," said John Paul Hernandez, 60, a retired Defense Department employee who grew up in the neighborhood. "All it was is defending your employee, business and livelihood. If I was in that position and that was me, I probably would have done the same thing."

District Attorney David Prater said Ersland was justified in shooting 16-year-old Antwun Parker once in the head, but not in firing the additional shots into his belly. The prosecutor said the teenager was unconscious, unarmed, lying on his back and posing no threat when Ersland fired what the medical examiner said were the fatal shots.

Anthony Douglas, president of the Oklahoma chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, called it an "execution-style murder" and praised the district attorney for bringing charges. Ersland is white; the two suspects were black.

Parker's parents also expressed relief that Ersland faces a criminal charge.

"He didn't have to shoot my baby like that," Parker's mother, Cleta Jennings, told TV station KOCO.

But many of those who have seen the video of the May 19 robbery attempt at Reliable Discount Pharmacy have concluded the teenager in the ski mask got what he deserved.

Mark Shannon, who runs a conservative talk show on Oklahoma City's KTOK, said callers have jammed his lines this week in support of Ersland, a former Air Force lieutenant colonel who wears a back brace on the job and told reporters he is a disabled veteran of the Gulf War.

"There is no gray area," Shannon said. One caller "said he should have put all the shots in the head."

Don Spencer, a 49-year-old National Rifle Association member who lives in the small town of Meridian, 40 miles north of Oklahoma City, said the pharmacist did the right thing: "You shoot more than enough to make sure the threat has been removed."

Barbara Bergman, past president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and a professor at the University of New Mexico School of Law, likened the public reaction to that of the case of Bernard Goetz, the New Yorker who shot four teenagers he said were trying to rob him when they asked for $5 on a subway in 1984.

Goetz was cleared of attempted murder and assault but convicted of illegal gun possession and served 8 1/2 months in jail.

Bergman said those who claim they used deadly force in self-defense have to show they were "in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury."

The pharmacy is in a crime-ridden section of south Oklahoma City and had been robbed before.

The video shows two men bursting in, one of them pointing a gun at Ersland and two women working with the druggist behind the counter. Ersland fires a pistol, driving the gunman from the store and hitting Parker in the head as he puts on a ski mask.

Ersland chases the second man outside, then goes back inside, walks behind the counter with his back to Parker, gets a second handgun and opens fire.

Irven Box, Ersland's attorney, noted the outpouring of support for the pharmacist, including $2,000 in donations, and said: "I feel very good 12 people would not determine he committed murder in the first degree."

Under Oklahoma's "Make My Day Law" — passed in the late 1980s and named for one of Clint Eastwood's most famous movie lines — people can use deadly force when they feel threatened by an intruder inside their homes. In 2006, Oklahoma's "Stand Your Ground Law" extended that to anywhere a citizen has the right to be, such as a car or office.

"It's a 'Make-My-Day' case," Box said. "This guy came in, your money or your life. Mr. Ersland said, `You're not taking my life.'" The gunman "forfeited his life."

Box said that another person might have reacted differently, but he asked: "When do you turn off that adrenaline switch? When do you think you're safe? I think that's going to be the ultimate issue."

If convicted, Ersland could be sentenced to life in prison with or without parole, or receive the death penalty.

Jevontia Ingram, the 14-year-old boy accused of wielding the gun in the robbery, was arrested Thursday. The district attorney on Friday filed a first-degree murder charge against him, as well as against a man accused of being the getaway driver, and another man suspected of helping talk the teens into the crime.

The charges accuse all three of sharing responsibility for Parker's shooting death.
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S. Williamson

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2009, 03:52:26 AM »
Quote
... he went behind the counter, got another gun, and pumped five more bullets into the wounded teenager as he lay on the floor.
Quote
District Attorney David Prater said Ersland was justified in shooting 16-year-old Antwun Parker once in the head, but not in firing the additional shots into his belly. The prosecutor said the teenager was unconscious, unarmed, lying on his back and posing no threat when Ersland fired what the medical examiner said were the fatal shots.
Quote
"There is no gray area," Shannon said. One caller "said he should have put all the shots in the head."
Quote
Don Spencer, a 49-year-old National Rifle Association member who lives in the small town of Meridian, 40 miles north of Oklahoma City, said the pharmacist did the right thing: "You shoot more than enough to make sure the threat has been removed."
I cannot in good conscience say that I agree in the slightest with any of this. 

You shoot to stop the threat. 

You DO NOT reload (or get another gun, WTF?) and CONTINUE SHOOTING A DOWNED TARGET.

Self-defense is a justifiable thing.  This turned into something entirely different.

I am not "supporting the criminals," but I am not supporting inexcusable conduct, either.
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seeker_two

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2009, 09:46:19 AM »
The druggist was justified up until the point where he shot the downed man again...unless the guy was going for another weapon, that is...if they do convict him, it shouldn't be for more than manslaughter....

...and leave it to the NAACP to come to the defense of the "misunderstood youths" rather than roll up their sleeves and work toward stopping the crime problem in the first place....clean up your own house, first!....  :mad:
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Mike

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2009, 11:21:34 AM »
This means make your first shot count. If the first shot had killed him the NAACP and his mom would still have cried "you shot my baby and he was just a lost youth" bs. even though the first shot was justified.

jackdanson

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2009, 11:36:04 AM »
Not a good shoot.  :mad:

Makes us all look bad; not that a feel particularly bad for the "youths".

Probably manslaughter or 2nd degree, depending on that state's laws.

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This means make your first shot count.

He shot him in the head, I don't know how you could make it count more.

makattak

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2009, 11:42:45 AM »
If, however, the youth was trying to get up as the accused claims, I'd have a very hard time convicting him.

The DA claims the thief was unconscious and couldn't get up.

Medical people: how can that be determined? I find it difficult to believe we can know that. 
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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2009, 11:46:49 AM »
Not a good shoot.  :mad:

Makes us all look bad; not that a feel particularly bad for the "youths".

Probably manslaughter or 2nd degree, depending on that state's laws.

He shot him in the head, I don't know how you could make it count more.
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Antibubba

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2009, 11:56:22 AM »
First of all, I haven't seen any video which either supports or weakens his argument that the perp was an immediate danger to him or others.  I think if it existed, we'd have seen it.  On that basis, I cannot say if this is good or bad.

But first-degree murder?  How is this first-degree instead of second-degree or manslaughter?
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makattak

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2009, 12:01:51 PM »
First of all, I haven't seen any video which either supports or weakens his argument that the perp was an immediate danger to him or others.  I think if it existed, we'd have seen it.  On that basis, I cannot say if this is good or bad.

But first-degree murder?  How is this first-degree instead of second-degree or manslaughter?

DAs always charge for more than they can get because that way they can plea bargain down to manslaughter and make it look like a deal for the accused. 
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Balog

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2009, 12:10:41 PM »
If the criminal was trying to get up (or the pharmacist thought he was) it's a good shoot. In a hyper-adrenalized state, I could see thinking any movement was "trying to get up."
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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2009, 01:27:23 PM »
I live in OKC and I'm here to tell ya that arresting that pharmacist has started a real *expletive deleted*it storm. The judge who arraigned him has even gotten death threats.

Now I know y'all are all thinking it is the black community generating the storm because it was a black kid that was shot.

WRONG!

It is the white community who is up in arms. they don't think the Pharmacist should have been arrested.

It was a bad shoot for sure - the guy turned his back on the kid. FOR 46 seconds. And then went back and shot him 5 more times. I don't care how stressed you are, how terrorized, how much the adrenaline is affecting you - pure survival instinct prevents one from turning their back on a realistic lethal threat.

But most of the folks up in arms, the talk show hosts, etc don't have a clue about what makes a shoot legal or not. One of the morons here on the radio told god and the world that because the Pharmacist had a CCW permit he'd been taught to shoot to kill and now he was going to go to jail for doing what he was taught. Geeeeez! They don't teach shoot to kill in OK CCW classes.

It is very likely IMO though, that the guy is gonna get the OJ treatment and walk - the people here are incensed that a wounded war vet getting disability, robbed multiple times in the past has even been charged let alone faces the very real possibility of going to prison for little more than cleaning up the gene pool a bit.

It's gonna be real interestin' here for awhile - real interesting.
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FTA84

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2009, 01:35:25 PM »
Maybe criminals will learn from this.

Don't want to die?

Don't break the law.

I will make no judgement on this man's actions. It is easy to Monday morning quarterback and say, "Oh he was down." but no one here was there and no one here knows all of the details.


makattak

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2009, 01:49:40 PM »
Quote
It was a bad shoot for sure - the guy turned his back on the kid. FOR 46 seconds. And then went back and shot him 5 more times. I don't care how stressed you are, how terrorized, how much the adrenaline is affecting you - pure survival instinct prevents one from turning their back on a realistic lethal threat.

Why do people keep making a non sequitur? I've read so many people saying: he walked past him bunches of times! He wasn't a threat!

All that means is he wasn't a threat ALL THOSE TIMES he walked past him. If he were wanting to murder the criminal, why didn't he just walk back in and shoot the thief?

If the thief were on the ground unconscious while he was moving about the store, then he wasn't a threat.

If he regains consciousness and begins to try to get up, he became a threat again. The criminal already showed he was alright with lethal force being used (even if NOW we know he didn't have a weapon), and the pharmacist was right to fear he too may have had a gun.

I don't have all the facts one way or another, but this is far from a clear case of "vigilante justice".

I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

BridgeRunner

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2009, 01:59:12 PM »
The way I see it, a crime is a crime regardless of how sympathetic the victim is or isn't.

The guy was no longer a threat.  It was no longer ok to shoot him.

I'm not into supporting criminals.  On either side.

Self-defense is about proportional response.  There's nothing proportional about shooting an unconscious individual.  If there's no threat, walking over to a firearm, pointing it, and pulling the trigger seem to me to be first degree murder.  Having a right to be royally pissed off is not the same thing as having a right to kill.   

makattak

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2009, 02:32:58 PM »
The way I see it, a crime is a crime regardless of how sympathetic the victim is or isn't.

The guy was no longer a threat.  It was no longer ok to shoot him.


I'm not into supporting criminals.  On either side.

Self-defense is about proportional response.  There's nothing proportional about shooting an unconscious individual.  If there's no threat, walking over to a firearm, pointing it, and pulling the trigger seem to me to be first degree murder.  Having a right to be royally pissed off is not the same thing as having a right to kill.   

As a lawyer (to be) you really should not make such positive statements.

Allow me to fix it for you:

Quote
IF he did not reasonably perceive the guy to be a threat, it was not ok to shoot him.

As of yet, I have not seen evidence sufficient to challenge that.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Nitrogen

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2009, 03:10:14 PM »
I'm supporting the guy because he shot a bad guy trying to kill him.  I won't comment on his decisions, because I'm not in his head.  I'd certainly not have made the same decisions he did, at least i'd like to think so.

He didn't stop being a bad guy once he was on the floor, bleeding.  He announced his intentions as soon as he came into the store and robbed the place violently.
I say it was a good shoot simply because he stopped a criminal from being a further criminal anymore.
That same criminal would ultimately have gotten better, sued the store owner, drained his income, then gotten out of prison and done it again.

If I was on his jury, I'd vote not guilty, purely based on the above.

As I said previously, I realize the law says something different, and that ultimately decides the outcome. 
The world isn't black and white, you know; it is shades of gray.  I think this guy is in a darker shade of gray than most of us would like to be, but I ultimately think he's on the right side.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2009, 04:13:22 PM »
If the criminal was trying to get up (or the pharmacist thought he was) it's a good shoot. In a hyper-adrenalized state, I could see thinking any movement was "trying to get up."

This man is correct.

Now, we do not have all the facts in this case, but at any degree, I don't see how first-degree murder applies. At best I can see manslaughter. Doesn't murder have to be planned in detail ahead of time?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2009, 04:30:26 PM »
The world isn't black and white, you know; it is shades of gray. 

No, I didn't know that. 
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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2009, 04:48:45 PM »
Given all the usual caveats (not all data, MSM article truthiness, etc.)

Not too long ago, the store owner would not have come close to being arrested.  Goblin comes in threatening death and gets it served back to him.  End of story.

Nowadays, our laws and morals have "evolved" to where we make (as after the fact observers) fine gradations as to exactly what is appropriate at what time given what circumstances.  And expect folks in the real world, who have guns pointed at them by murderous thugs, to make the same decisions.

Morally, I have no problem with the store owner's actions as presented.  The responsibility for the mess lies with those who threatened death to a man minding his own business.  Legally, he might be in hot water.

After all, we are ruled by lawyers.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2009, 05:26:42 PM »
"When one is asked: "Surely you don't think in terms of black-and-white, do you?" -- the proper answer (in essence, if not in form) should be: "You're damn right I do!"

~~Rand.
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Antibubba

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2009, 01:58:52 AM »
Quote from: Bridgewalker
The guy was no longer a threat.  It was no longer ok to shoot him.

Did you see a different video than I did?  Because nothing I saw in the store security video suggests the robber was no longer a threat.  Because the miscreant is laying down on a part of the floor not covered by the camera, I have no way at all to tell if he moved again or not.  There is nothing stating that the first shot--the one to the head--incapacitated Antwun; we've all read about bullets that pierce the skin and wind up sliding along the skull instead of piercing it, to use one example.

If I were on the jury, I would need a great deal more evidence before I could convict him.  "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is not met with that tape.
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Stand_watie

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Re: What's up here?
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2009, 09:40:26 AM »
Quote from: Barbara Bergman
..Barbara Bergman, past president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and a professor at the University of New Mexico School of Law, likened the public reaction to that of the case of Bernard Goetz, the New Yorker who shot four teenagers he said were trying to rob himwho admitted they were trying to rob him with a sharpened screwdriver when they asked for "asked for" $5 on a subway in 1984

     Fixed it for her.
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