Car value question

[never_retreat]

Had a lovely trip to to the Philadelphia airport last night.
Half way there I think the trimming jumped in in the car. No power had to do 25 mph on 95. City of brotherly love my ars, thought I was going to get shot. Anyone not familiar with the area that road has a non official speed limit of 85-95 mph.
Got the the airport picked up the other people and called AAA. A nice free 50 mile tow.

Got up this AM got out the Chilton manual, when the section about the timing starts with remove engine I had to rethink my plan.
I can see this being a 2 thousand dollar job.

Car has a KBB value of between 6-7 thousand. Need to get rid of it but wont get crap on a trade.
Is there a magic formula to figure out what a salvage yard would pay for the car? I figured parts are worth more than just scrap. The car is mostly clean.

[mtnbkr]

You might try trading it in.  You will get more than you'd get at salvage.  While it may cost YOU $2k to resolve the timing issue, a dealer, with access to a shop, will get it done for far less.  If they give you $2k trade-in, not only will they have a $6k+ car to sell for $3k or less, they'll sell you another car.  

Edit to add:  When I bought our minivan a couple years ago, they gave me $3k on a 7yo Toyota Camry with a 150k 4cyl engine, 5spd manual, and a host of issues.  I doubt I could have gotten more than $2k direct sell to a private party. 

Chris

[never_retreat]

You might try trading it in.  You will get more than you'd get at salvage.  While it may cost YOU $2k to resolve the timing issue, a dealer, with access to a shop, will get it done for far less.  If they give you $2k trade-in, not only will they have a $6k+ car to sell for $3k or less, they'll sell you another car.  

Edit to add:  When I bought our minivan a couple years ago, they gave me $3k on a 7yo Toyota Camry with a 150k 4cyl engine, 5spd manual, and a host of issues.  I doubt I could have gotten more than $2k direct sell to a private party. 

Chris

I talked with a friend this morning that works a dealership. To them or any other dealer that car is not worth fixing and selling. Anyone that offers a lot for it is just going to inflate the price of the new vehicle.

[Brad Johnson]

What make/model vehicle?

Salvage value will generally be the market value of the vehicle times the market area correction from your insurance company.  As a general rule of thumb you can use an 80% estimate and prob be close enough for your purposes.  Back out the cost of repairing the engine from that number and you'll have a decent guesstimate of the salvage value.

I'm pretty handy with a wrench (actually I'm one heckuva good mechanic and very proud of it).  Get me some info on exactly what was going on with the vehicle and I'll do some digging.  It might not be as bad as you think, or the repair may not be as involved as Chilton's makes it out to be.

Brad

[Nick1911]

How sure are we that this is timing related?  Have you done a compression test?

[never_retreat]

What make/model vehicle?

Salvage value will generally be the market value of the vehicle times the market area correction from your insurance company.  As a general rule of thumb you can use an 80% estimate and prob be close enough for your purposes.  Back out the cost of repairing the engine from that number and you'll have a decent guesstimate of the salvage value.

I'm pretty handy with a wrench (actually I'm one heckuva good mechanic and very proud of it).  Get me some info on exactly what was going on with the vehicle and I'll do some digging.  It might not be as bad as you think, or the repair may not be as involved as Chilton's makes it out to be.

Brad

Its an 05 Mazda tribute (ford escape) with a v6. 130k miles.
I was driving it for a while at about 45 thought I noticed a lack of power. I was very windy so I kind of shrugged it off as just bucking a head wind. Car was never that powerful in my opinion plus I'm used to driving a 300hp truck.
Thought I heard a ticking noise, again thought it was something vibrating from either the wind or road.
Got on the high way lost more power, car wont go over 50. Weird winy noise starts. Continue the drive hopping the car goes up in flames for the insurance money.
Lost more power down to 40.
Lost more power down to 30.
Thought I was going to die before the car.
No amount of throttle changed anything.
Made it to destination called wrecker.
Check the codes this morning, nothing new except the same code for the bad cat.

Car is over all in good shape only one or 2 small dents.

Car recently had an alternator put in at the stealership. Is there anything they could have done by mistake or on intentionally in the vicinity?
Car has also had the abs light on for about 2 years and the 4x4 light comes on intermittently. Both still work.

How sure are we that this is timing related?  Have you done a compression test?

Good thought. I'll check that latter. Unfortunately you can not get to the back 3 plugs without removing the intake.

[never_retreat]

How sure are we that this is timing related?  Have you done a compression test?

Actually what are the symptoms going to be?

[grislyatoms]

If it were cam/crank timing I would think you would get quite a bit of backfiring, assuming it ran at all.

Symptoms as described, I would think fuel.

[Nick1911]

Actually what are the symptoms going to be?

Of skipped time?  Low or no compression in some or all cylinders.

05 tribute with a V6... Duratec 3.0L.  Timing chain.

It's possible that you have skipped time, but it's fairly uncommon for timing chains to do that.  Especially after it's already running (Tensioner uses oil pressure to keep chain tension.)  And I'm having trouble understanding a method of action where the problem would become worse short of not running at all.

Personally, I would start with fuel pressure.

Honestly, since you're talking about a fairly big financial decision, it might be a good idea to have a competent shop diagnosis the problem.

[Tallpine]

If it were cam/crank timing I would think you would get quite a bit of backfiring, assuming it ran at all.

Symptoms as described, I would think fuel.

Yep.  $20 fuel filter might just fix it.

Have you taken a look to see if all the plug wires are attached

I've had a GM 350 v8 barely run with one loose plug wire.

[Nick1911]

Also: The duratec 30 is an interference engine, if I recall correctly.  Which usually means that skipping time much at all results in a very-not-running-engine. 

Like this one, in my Talon:

[never_retreat]

If it were cam/crank timing I would think you would get quite a bit of backfiring, assuming it ran at all.

Symptoms as described, I would think fuel.

How would fuel pressure result in a wining noise that changed with throttle? I'm not being as wise ares.

[RocketMan]

Plugged catalytic converter?  You mentioned the code for the bad cat.

[never_retreat]

Yep.  $20 fuel filter might just fix it.

Have you taken a look to see if all the plug wires are attached

I've had a GM 350 v8 barely run with one loose plug wire.

No wires one coil per cylinder, when those die they do throw a code. I have changed a few.

[never_retreat]

Plugged catalytic converter?  You mentioned the code for the bad cat.

When I first met the car it had 2 bad coils on one bank. I figured all the unburnt fuel did it in. It has 3, one in each manifold and one in the pipe.

[Brad Johnson]

Will the engine start at all?  If it starts and idles normally then it's not a timing chain problem.

Brad

[dogmush]

Will the engine start at all?  If it starts and idles normally then it's not a timing chain problem.

Brad

This,

I've actually gotten one of those engines running with the timing a tooth off.  It'll barely idle, and there will be no doubt in your mind.  It does sound more like a fuel issue.

[grislyatoms]

How would fuel pressure result in a wining noise that changed with throttle? I'm not being as wise ares.

50
40
30

That's highly indicative of fuel flow/restriction. Don't have an answer for the whining. Rocketman said bad cat. Increasing backpressure from a failing cat can cause the same symptoms.

[Brad Johnson]

The whining could have been a failing fuel pump.  When they start to go they can make the damdest racket, that is if they don't fail completely.

Do this simple test first... turn your key on without starting the engine.  You should hear the fuel pump activate to prime the system.  That is you should hear it just enough to know it's on.  If it screams at you then you've just diagnosed the problem.

If it seems to be operating normally then try starting the car.  If it starts and idles normally then the first thing to check is fuel pressure as you slowly rev the engine up the RPM range (in neutral, of course).  Luckily this is very easy to do and, if you already have the guage, free.  If you don't have a guage they are available most anywhere that sells auto parts automotive tools for around $35-40.  Pretty handy gadget to have in your tool box.

Brad

[never_retreat]

Alrighty

Check 2 cylinders on the front bank, 125 psi. Book says it should only be 75 psi.
I really leaning towards the front cat. When i turned it over it started (pulled the wrong relay for the fuel pump) we turned off I could hear air trying to escape from somewhere. The Cat is barely visible let alone touchable.
There is a procedure listed in the book for checking the pressure using a vacuum gage but I don't have one.
I'm going to call a coworker and see if he has one.
I'm also going to call around and get some prices on changing the cat. Its 400 bucks just to buy the dam thing.

[mtnbkr]

Check 2 cylinders on the front bank, 125 psi. Book says it should only be 75 psi.

Really?  IIRC, old aircooled Beetles ran about 100-110psi and could be run as low as 75ish (below that, it was time for a rebuild).  The "safe" compression ratio for 87 octane pump gas was 7.5:1, though some folks ran as high as 9:1 in their trailer queens.  Again, this is IIRC, but I always expected modern watercooled engines to be well above 100psi given improved cooling and fuel management. 

Chris

[Brad Johnson]

125 psi cold crank pressure is good.  75 is bad.  Really bad.  Even the athsmatic 8.0:1 compression mid-70s smog engines could muster 90 psi or better.

If you can easily reach the exhaust manifold/pipe connection, it should be a matter of 2 bolts per side to uncouple the exhaust.  If you're suspecting the cat(s) I'd be tempted to drop the tubes and see if it changes anything.

Brad

[Tallpine]

We got a local shop to install a generic catalytic converter on my daughter's first car.

They had to do some cutting and welding but still way cheaper than factory parts.

It was something like $200 parts and labor vs. over a thou$and through Subaru (one reason I don't want to have anything to do with a Sue-Bee again :) ).

[Hawkmoon]

Check the codes this morning, nothing new except the same code for the bad cat.

Are you not aware that a bad (clogged) catalytic converter is about like sticking a potato in the exhaust pipe? An engine is basically an air pump. If you plug the outlet, nothing can come in, so there's no new fuel-air mix to burn.

Replace your catalytic converter and you're probably good to go. Check places like Auto Zone for universals. Should not cost 400 clams.

[never_retreat]

I miss read the book, it said the lowest cylinder needs to be within 75% of the highest for compression.
I looked to quick and thought it said 75 psi.

I looked up the cat and its almost 400 bucks to buy by itself.
I'm going to call around tomorrow, the job is going to suck monkey nuts without being on a lift.
I have a local mechanic that is well recommended and reasonable, and there is a minakee around here also.