Author Topic: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans  (Read 8815 times)

Gowen

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2013, 10:09:45 PM »
People kill themselves needlessly
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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2013, 11:34:36 PM »

No remains of the children established.


Near the end the author said that searchers probably found the bones of the children near the original site, but the Sheriff's office was playing keep away with info so the author wasn't certain (and it appeared that it also delayed the recovery of said bones).
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Northwoods

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2013, 11:53:20 PM »
Very fascinating story.  Amazing to me that they got as far as they did on the hike from the stuck minivan.  Got to wonder why they didn't try to make it to the cabin they stole the flag from instead.
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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2013, 02:03:58 AM »
I had a German tourist gal I met out here in the desert stay over for a couple of days, she had just been down to Death Valley.
Her maps would have gotten her stuck if I hadn't warned her, also, some official tourist info she got back in Germany would have had her trespassing on private property. ( a local geyser attracts a lot of disappointed people )
However she was pretty well prepared for desert travel, lots of extra water and food.

I did talk her into trying out some shooting.  =D

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Ben

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2013, 08:20:28 AM »
I did talk her into trying out some shooting.  =D

Yeah, sure, "shooting".

 =D
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Tallpine

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2013, 10:57:14 AM »
Near the end the author said that searchers probably found the bones of the children near the original site, but the Sheriff's office was playing keep away with info so the author wasn't certain (and it appeared that it also delayed the recovery of said bones).

Yeah, I was trying the give Gowen the quick version.

Which is why I said "established" instead of "found"  ;)
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Tallpine

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2013, 01:57:09 PM »
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2013, 05:04:27 PM »
You would think with the huge vastness and inhospitable nature of the place it would be named so as to warn the unknowing.

Death Valley, not a warning, a challenge. How else is such a crappy place such a tourist draw?

 My experience with the west is limited to northern Nevada, I get pretty far out but always with a pack full of stuff.

Criminal stupidity is fine by me, just don't involve your 4 year old.
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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2013, 05:23:06 PM »
Quote
Criminal stupidity is fine by me, just don't involve your 4 year old.

Or make me come looking for your ass and/or fill out the *expletive deleted*ing paperwork. Of which there are mountains when somebody buys the farm.

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Lee

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2013, 06:03:16 PM »
I was in that area a couple of summers ago. Its hard for someone to imagine just how freaking hot the desert can be, until your in one. You think you know, but you don't.

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2013, 07:40:17 PM »
Looks like a beautiful place to visit - in October through May.  ;)

Seems like you would want at least a 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban or pickup with 10 ply tires so you could carry lots of water, fuel, water, food, and more water.

But it's in Califrickia, and I ain't goin' out in the desert without a loaded sidearm.  =(
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Unisaw

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2013, 07:24:52 PM »
That was sobering.  Can't say I would ever want to visit there, although I have toyed with the thought of a backpacking trip in the Grand Canyon -- on well-established trails.
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Ben

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2013, 08:37:39 PM »
That was sobering.  Can't say I would ever want to visit there, although I have toyed with the thought of a backpacking trip in the Grand Canyon -- on well-established trails.

Death Valley is actually a really cool place to check out both on foot and via 4x4 (or regular car as long as you're careful to stay on the marked roads). There are quite a few higher elevation camping areas that get you out of the big heat. Some parts of the year, if you don't take care of your water and stuff, it'll be an ice block when you get up in the morning. There are also some really cool places just outside of the national park boundary for camping, hunting, and general shooting. Any Spring after a  good rainy season is an awesome time to go - wildflowers will be going off like crazy.
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2013, 10:47:20 PM »

I am something of a map nerd.  Not an especially expert map nerd, but a map nerd nonetheless.

Several years ago we took our daughter to stay with some friends in Modesto.  Since we were living in Western Nevada (the northern part of the state, Reno/Tahoe area, is actually 90 miles west of Los Angeles), that trip took us through Yosemite.

I spent a long time going over my DeLorme computer maps and making sure I had the route, and alternatives, all be memorized.  One of the roads I wanted to take was the Old Yosemite Highway.  It's one of the very, very few privately funded highways ever built in the US.  It isn't much used, but still I wanted to see the scenery along that drive.

On the trip down and back when we dropped her off, I never did find any signage indicating the Old Yosemite Highway, so I said "meh" and stuck to the regular roads.

When we went back for her a few weeks later, we still didn't see any signage, but on the return trip, I noticed a sign at a fork in the road, a sign that couldn't be seen traveling west, but if you were alert it caught your vision traveling east.  Aha!  I knew the name of that branch road from studying the maps, and knew that it connected to the Old Road.  Woo Hoo!

Off we went down the right fork.

The road was paved.  For about a half mile.  Maybe.

And then it was gravel.  Mostly.

And then it was dirt.  For a few miles.

And then it was . . . interesting.  Rocks.  Big ones.  Embedded.  Too big to remove without heavy equipment and dynamite.  The road surface had evidently, at one time, been slightly above the boulders now exposed by erosion.  Roots.  Trees which had been smaller -- or not there at all -- had elaborately developed root systems which now encroached, in a big way, upon the road surface.

As the miles went (slowly) on, the road increasingly became a carnival ride.  With cliffs.  Oh, true, we had a hell of a view.  You could just look off to the right -- over the cliff edge -- at that unbelievable valley of trees and formations.  But in my wife's universe, there was no view.  Only cliffs.  There are stories and sagas about my wife and cliffs.  I will, perhaps, relate them another time.

And so it was, about fourteen miles in, that my wife, looking out the windows of the mini-van at the cows surrounding us, and severely pot-holed road festooned in cow pies, and the unexpected sudden forks (plural) in the road, inquired -- rather calmly, all things considered, whether we were, indeed, on the right road.  A forgivable question, under the circumstances.  All things considered.  I was absolutely not in the mood to have it be the wrong road, or have to retrace the aforementioned fourteen miles back to the first fork.  I needed confirmation that my manly navigation skills were intact.

It was at this point that I finally deployed my hole card:  a DeLorme LT20 USB-tethered GPS puck, with companion software on my little dinky Lifebook notebook computer.  After waking up the laptop (30 seconds), connecting the GPS puck (15 seconds), activating GPS mode in Topo USA (another 15 seconds), and after yet a further 30 seconds acquiring enough signals from the satellite constellation, a comforting green dot appeared . . . exactly where I imagined we ought to be.  We were a mere four miles from rejoining the main road.

Once we got back to the main road, it was obvious why we had not seen the signage for Old Yosemite Highway:  a) the connection was off on a side road from the recently reworked main highway, and b) the pretty green highway signs pointedly ignored even the idea that there might be such a connection.  And with good reason, I might add.  If some tourist got the idea that there was a quaint, historic (and scenic) old highway "off that-away" the friendly ranger folk would have to lay on a whole crew whose job it would be to save those tourists from scary cliffs and boulders and roots and ruts (and cows, actually).

I'm glad we took that side trip, glad that we got through it okay, and glad I discovered the value of GPS before GPS was cool.

On the other hand . . .

I have absolutely no problem understanding how a series of "reasonable" decisions, based on "reasonable" assumptions, based on a clearly drawn line on a pretty-much-accurate map, could lead a party of tourists into hazard of life and limb.

My decision to follow the Old Road seemed quite reasonable at first, and my repeated assurances to my wife (and myself) that the road "wasn't really that bad yet" seemed harmless enough.  There was no annotation in the mapping software that indicated the quality of the road might be rated as "hazardous - Jeeps only."  It was just a line.  And it was a better line than the FS[nn] roads (forest service maintenance/fire roads) near it.

I have since become much more circumspect about following maps or GPS blips and rationalizing terrain-as-road.  I always make sure I'm clear to turn around, have enough fuel to duplicate the trip in, and respect the terrain.

If the terrain looks like it's got the potential for high-centering, tire rupturing, axle burying, or [insert bad thing here], I bow to the terrain gods and add it to my list of "places to go when I have enough Jeep."


I feel for the Germans.  I can understand how it would be easy to fail to grasp the size of Death Valley -- almost the size of Connecticut -- until it was just too late.

Me, I grew up in areas near the desert and visited many of those vast places as a kid.  I knew how getting lost out there could turn out.  Someone growing up in Germany?  I can completely understand the disconnect.

On the Nevada side, in and around Beatty, there's no shortage of warnings and signposts offering "hey, you could die out there" advice.  They came in from the Cali side, so I dunno.

Sux though.

Interesting that there were still people who couldn't let it go all those years later.  Nothing boring about that story.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

Parker Dean

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2013, 11:09:57 PM »
I can't help but wonder if the thick, black smoke of a minivan fire where no vehicles are supposed to be would have piqued official curiosity enough to generate at least a flyover. Of course he was still trying to "win" up until the last, not realizing he'd lost the moment a tire touched dirt.

Speaking of which, it may just be my rural midwest upbringing but I cannot imagine going more than a couple of miles down any dirt road in a state such as described without bailing on the idea and heading back to pavement. it doesn't help that ime no dirt road has ever actually gone anywhere useful (beyond a fishing hole) and even most gravel roads tend to just peter out

Tallpine

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2013, 11:18:01 PM »
If you search YouTube for Mengle Pass there are some videos of some pretty serious 4-wheeling.  That's what they first intended to go over.

Apparently they drove miles and miles of increasingly worse Warm Springs Road before getting to the flats at Striped Butte and the stone cabin, and discovering that they really really couldn't get over the pass.  They just couldn't imagine going back down the road that they just came up and the Anvil Canyon road just had to be better ....  ;/

Now why the heck they took off to the south x-country instead of walking back to the cabin where there was a spring ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Ben

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2013, 11:19:21 PM »
I can't help but wonder if the thick, black smoke of a minivan fire where no vehicles are supposed to be would have piqued official curiosity enough to generate at least a flyover. Of course he was still trying to "win" up until the last, not realizing he'd lost the moment a tire touched dirt.

Speaking of which, it may just be my rural midwest upbringing but I cannot imagine going more than a couple of miles down any dirt road in a state such as described without bailing on the idea and heading back to pavement. it doesn't help that ime no dirt road has ever actually gone anywhere useful (beyond a fishing hole) and even most gravel roads tend to just peter out

As to the fire, again, vastness and being way off the beaten trail. The smoke might never be seen before it burned out - not to say if I was lost that i wouldn't be using any kind of signal I could, but again, them being where they were from, the whole distress signal concept might have been lost on them.

As to dirt roads, there are tons of them out west that go for miles and miles, often connecting between highways. Look up the road to Bodie (ghost town). It's a long dirt road that goes to a popular summer tourist destination. There are lots more like it, many of them marked (like Forest Service roads), and many offshoots of those roads unmarked and often suddenly undriveable, even though they look like great "hey, what's down that way?" roads for the first mile or so.
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2013, 11:29:01 PM »

I can't help but wonder if the thick, black smoke of a minivan fire where no vehicles are supposed to be would have piqued official curiosity enough to generate at least a flyover. Of course he was still trying to "win" up until the last, not realizing he'd lost the moment a tire touched dirt.

Speaking of which, it may just be my rural midwest upbringing but I cannot imagine going more than a couple of miles down any dirt road in a state such as described without bailing on the idea and heading back to pavement. it doesn't help that ime no dirt road has ever actually gone anywhere useful (beyond a fishing hole) and even most gravel roads tend to just peter out


Warning:  Old Guy Ramblings

I grew up in a variety of rural and semi-rural settings.

I lived in Mount Vernon Ohio.  On a dirt road.  Down a quarter mile of dirt lane from the dirt road.  Farms pretty much all up and down that dirt road.

I lived in Alabama.  On a dirt road.  Up a quarter mile dirt lane off that dirt road.  Nowadays that road (on Green Mountain) is probably paved.  It wasn't back then.

I lived in northern California.  Near the top of a hill, serviced by . . . a dirt road and . . . down some 200 yards of dirt and gravel lane, across a wooden bridge.

We owned two properties in southeastern Arizona (Gayleville and Paradise), both of which were to be found at the other end of some twenty or thirty miles of dirt road.

I learned the word "washboard" driving those roads.

So, maybe I'm a bit more "at home" on dirt roads, but I don't automatically discount them.

Maybe it's an "out west" thing.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

Tallpine

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2013, 10:52:42 AM »
Yeah, most of my life I have lived beyond the end of the pavement, including right now.

We spent a couple winters nine miles beyond the end of the county snow plowing.  We got in and out (once a month or less often) by xc skis, dogsled, or neighbors' snow machines.  The good old days  :cool:

I'm pretty familiar with certain remote environments that can kill the unsuspecting.  However, something like Death Valley is a whole different set of hazards than for instance the Colorado Rockies above 9000' in winter.

Going off the paved road in DV in the summer is a little bit like going off across the ND or MT prairie in a January blizzard  :facepalm:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2013, 05:40:25 PM »
From what I understand, Death Valley is especially popular with German tourist - in the summertime! ???
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Bigjake

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2013, 10:31:31 PM »
From what I understand, Death Valley is especially popular with German tourist - in the summertime! ???

Article also mentioned that,  but didn't bother to give any reasons why.  Strange tourist attraction.

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2013, 10:43:51 PM »
Article also mentioned that,  but didn't bother to give any reasons why.  Strange tourist attraction.

Back when I studied German in high school and college, my textbooks made a big point about how a whole lot of Germans are fascinated by the old American West.  To the extent of dressing up like cowboys and such.  I wonder if Death Valley ties in with this.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2013, 10:57:07 PM »
1. America is awesome for having a place named "Death Valley."

2. "Hunt for the Death Valley Germans" sounds like it should be in a triple feature with Dead Snow and Iron Sky.
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TommyGunn

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Re: The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2013, 11:34:18 PM »
I keep expecting an old Boraxo Soap commercial................. [tinfoil] :rofl:
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