Author Topic: Turbocharged  (Read 2769 times)

Nick1911

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Turbocharged
« on: January 16, 2009, 03:45:26 PM »
I've never had a turbocharged car, but I was thinking of the mechanics of it today.

Since the turbo provides positive pressure into the intake, wouldn't there be no manifold vacuum?  If you pulled a vacuum line off of the intake manifold, wouldn't the boost assure that the line would be pressurized instead of being a vacuum?

CNYCacher

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Re: Turbocharged
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2009, 05:32:26 PM »
I've never had a turbocharged car, but I was thinking of the mechanics of it today.

Since the turbo provides positive pressure into the intake, wouldn't there be no manifold vacuum?  If you pulled a vacuum line off of the intake manifold, wouldn't the boost assure that the line would be pressurized instead of being a vacuum?

The throttle body is located between the turbo compressor and the intake manifold.    Only under wide-open (or mostly wide-open) throttle, does the throttle body allow enough flow (turbo or no) into the intake manifold to overcome the suck of the intake valves.  And only under wide-open throttle does the engine produce enough exhaust gasses to spin the turbo fast enough to create positive pressure in the intake manifold.
* CNYCacher knows a LOT about turbos

On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
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Nick1911

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Re: Turbocharged
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2009, 05:34:59 PM »
Interesting!

So a 'boost' gauge typically shows the pressure between the compressor and the throttle body?

Brad Johnson

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Re: Turbocharged
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2009, 05:49:10 PM »
"Boost" is generic for positive manifold pressure anywhere between the turbo housing and the cylinder.  Like CNY said, it's important to know where, and how, to measure it properly.

You may have positive pressure all the time upstream from the throttle body/carb but downstream, between the TB and the cylinder, manifold pressure is purely a function of throttle opening and engine RPM (how much air can get in vs how much air the engine pumps at that speed).

By the way, if you ever build a blown or turbo'd engine, the goal is to make as little manifold pressure as possible for a given volume of air.  Pressure builds when there is a restriction to air flow.  Pressure makes heat.  Heat bad.  There is a point of diminishing returns for blowers and turbos on stock engines.  The intake tracts are designed for N/A airflow efficiency.  Overstuffing them with a turbo or blower may build more HP, but at some point the intake system simply will not efficiently support more airflow.  At that point you can build all the manifold pressure you want but you won't make another nickel's worth of power.  That's where you have to start digging into the engine and doing port work, enlarging throttle bodies, setting up exhaust systems, etc.  A moderately worked engine will more power on less pressure than a stocker because it moves the same volume of air with less pressure and less resulting heat buildup in the intake charge.  Or to put it another way, you will get more air volume for a given manifold pressure.  More volume equals more power.  More power gooooooood! =D

Brad
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 05:56:00 PM by Brad Johnson »
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Parker Dean

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Re: Turbocharged
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2009, 07:31:24 PM »
The throttle body is located between the turbo compressor and the intake manifold.    Only under wide-open (or mostly wide-open) throttle, does the throttle body allow enough flow (turbo or no) into the intake manifold to overcome the suck of the intake valves.  And only under wide-open throttle does the engine produce enough exhaust gasses to spin the turbo fast enough to create positive pressure in the intake manifold.
* CNYCacher knows a LOT about turbos



Odd. My Turbo Regal will develop anything from 2-10 psi of boost at anything over about 1/3 throttle, depending on load, etc. Half or more and it'll go into the teens, easy. WOT it'll shoot to the 18psi wastegate setting, and then creep a little to about 20 on the top of Third because the wastegate is a bit small. Yes, alky is a must.

CNYCacher

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Re: Turbocharged
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2009, 11:24:34 PM »
Interesting!

So a 'boost' gauge typically shows the pressure between the compressor and the throttle body?

Negative, that number is essentially useless.  Boost gauges are typically tapped into the intake manifold.  They generally show vacuum of varying degrees until you try to step on it.

Odd. My Turbo Regal will develop anything from 2-10 psi of boost at anything over about 1/3 throttle, depending on load, etc. Half or more and it'll go into the teens, easy. WOT it'll shoot to the 18psi wastegate setting, and then creep a little to about 20 on the top of Third because the wastegate is a bit small. Yes, alky is a must.

I don't doubt it, different systems are different.  Throttle body size compared to engine displacement and turbo size can make a huge difference in the boost curve.  Perhaps I am guilty of oversimplification.
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

drewtam

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Re: Turbocharged
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2009, 12:34:31 AM »
This should help...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold_(automotive_engineering)

Plus to get back to your original question, my brakes have a vacuum booster which acts like a reservoir.  There is a check valve to hold the vacuum in the canister.

So the simple answer is check valves, lots of check valves.
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Parker Dean

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Re: Turbocharged
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2009, 12:34:59 AM »
... and turbo size...

Well, I suppose the PT61 is just a wee bit bigger than stock.

Of course the trans didn't like that for very long and the car now sits awaiting trans overhaul/upgrades. OTOH, it is a GM product so it probably would have had trans problems anyway

drewtam

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Re: Turbocharged
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2009, 01:28:13 AM »
Well, I suppose the PT61 is just a wee bit bigger than stock.

Of course the trans didn't like that for very long and the car now sits awaiting trans overhaul/upgrades. OTOH, it is a GM product so it probably would have had trans problems anyway

Thats a 3.8L v6 right? I bet that size turbo makes it run like a beast.

Anyway, there has been a lot of argument at work lately on switching from a GT35 to the GT37. My boss wants me to get into the middle of it and all the surrounding performance issues.

So I find the mentioning of your GT35 derivative timely.
I’m not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The… tactleneck!